Tactica: Tomb Kings 8th Edition Book

[EDMM]

The problem with Tomb Guard isn't an inability to hurt things, it's an inability to survive.

T4 with a 6+ save is simply ludicrous for a 13 point per model unit with a single attack. They're horrific glass cannons, and the minute you end up in combat with some Swordmasters, Bloodletters, Temple Guard, Chaos Knights, Chosen, Wardancers, etc. you're haemorraging points. Unstable is actually a huuuuge liability for them, because the real heavy hitters of the Warhammer world will kill more Tomb Guard than Tomb Guard will hope to kill back, leaving you in a CR defecit, and earning your opponent some juicy double kills in combat.

The same holds true of shooting and magic.

This leaves you in the position of being forced to use Augment spells to try and keep them alive. And if you're doing that, you might as well be doing it to Skeletons, who reap greater rewards.

[TheKingInYellow]

None of those unit types has a built-in healing method via a banner and custom spell lore though.

You can't look at a unit under a microscope, you have to look at in context.

[Skyros]

Compared to Chaos warriors Temple Guard Black Guard and the like?.......at least they don't crumble. And before you mention it they tend not to break either.
Greatswords are stubborn, don't crumble and have better armour and WS. TBH An equal pointed unit of GS and TG would most likely decimate each other.
Its just that Greatswords have spent several additions being uselessly overpriced ,but are probably fairly priced now with step up (although so were TG), Greatswords should be ITP for fluff reasons alone (its astounding that they aren't!).

What's really astounding is that they can't take a magical standard, but almost every variety of rat can.

Stubborn is nice, but I have had stubborn Ld9 troops with BSB re-roll break and flee before, so it can happen. Not crumbling is a big boost, although you would hope on such killy units you wouldn't be losing combats by big amounts to be subject to crumble.

I regard the armor as pretty much of a wash. I don't think either unit would be getting armor saves against most enemy elite infantry, would they? The stuff that really scares me is typically S5+. In the warhammer world you may as well have a 3+ save or nothing, it seems. I'd happily strip all my basic troops of their light armor if it gave me a point reduction.

The WS is a good point - I had assumed TG were WS4. If not, that's a point for the greatswords! Although I guess TG can have their WS raised by a prince/king.

[Esco Thomson]

Sorry, with all due respect, I have a large issue with using any logic where as Wardancers are used as a basis for any sort of unit performance evaluation.

TKIY nailed it though, you can't look at a unit out of context of the army that is supporting it.

Unless it is Wardancers...because in my turn, I will choose the Chicken Dance for them.

[EDMM]

None of those unit types has a built-in healing method via a banner and custom spell lore though.

You can't look at a unit under a microscope, you have to look at in context.

Skeletons do. That's the context. I am comparing between Skeletons and Tomb Guard. Tomb Guard won't do 3 times better against these opponents than Skeletons.

Although I am distinctly NOT comparing Tomb Guard to the units I listed, a huge number of units have access to Life, which is a better lore than Nehekara. So if I were to compare Tomb Guard to choices outside the book and we're adding in "magic and item" support to opposing units then I think Tomb Guard lose there as well.

[TheKingInYellow]

Skeletons do. That's the context. I am comparing between Skeletons and Tomb Guard. Tomb Guard won't do 3 times better against these opponents than Skeletons.

Although I am distinctly NOT comparing Tomb Guard to the units I listed, a huge number of units have access to Life, which is a better lore than Nehekara. So if I were to compare Tomb Guard to choices outside the book and we're adding in "magic and item" support to opposing units then I think Tomb Guard lose there as well.

Life does not even approach Nehek lore for healing. It is possible to heal 4d3+1d6+6 TG back in a turn.

[EDMM]

With one-hundred-billion dice and no dispels.

It is possible to make Swordmasters T7 with a 4+ regeneration save in combat AND heal some.

I know which I would rather have.

[GodlessM]

This debate is getting stale very fast considering how people keep acting like all these unit fill the same roles and can be compared on face value. As TKIY said, context is key. Any half decent general knows you can't look at just any two units and say 'A is better than B because it is more killy' when B might in fact be a unit designed to run around and harass rather than fight.

The problem with Tomb Guard isn't an inability to hurt things, it's an inability to survive.

The point in a hammer is to do damage, not soak up damage.

T4 with a 6+ save is simply ludicrous for a 13 point per model unit with a single attack. They're horrific glass cannons, and the minute you end up in combat with some Swordmasters, Bloodletters, Temple Guard, Chaos Knights, Chosen, Wardancers, etc. you're haemorraging points.

Then don't send them into such units And are Skeletons going to fair any better against said units? Of course not.

Skeletons do.

No they don't. He asked what other units can have a built in healing banner, and Skeletons can't take magic banners.

With one-hundred-billion dice and no dispels.

Exaggerations don't do credit to your argument, they only make it hard to take seriously. Whereas your point stands as correct, saying things like this isn't going to win you anything.

[EDMM]

Then don't send them into such units And are Skeletons going to fair any better against said units? Of course not.

I think they do better.


And if you can't send your elite force against the enemies elites, what exactly do you send at them?

But for the sake of analysis:

50 Tomb Guard with Halberds and command are 680 points.

You can get 130 Skeletons with Spears and full command for the same 680 points.

EDIT: What the hell is with the "413 Request Entity Too Large" error? I can't post more than 10 lines of text in a single post now??

[EDMM]

Against 30 Swordmasters:
Combat Phase 1
Tomb Guard suffer 24 casualties and inflict 13 casualties. 10 more Tomb Guard crumble from Unstable (Tomb Guard have +1 rank).

Skeletons suffer 31 casualties and inflict 6 casualties. 23 more Skeletons crumble from Unstable (Skeletons have +2 ranks).

[EDMM]

Combat Phase 2
Tomb Guard suffer 16 casualties and are destroyed.

Skeletons suffer 26 casualties and inflict 6 casualties. 18 more Skeletons crumble from Unstable (Skeletons have +2 ranks).

Combat Phase 3
Tomb Guard are chilling in hell.

Skeletons suffer 21 casualties and inflict 1 casualty. The remainder of the unit crumbles.

So, the Skeletons inflict exactly the same number of casualties and survive a full combat phase longer than the Tomb Guard.

[EDMM]

Is that a freak occurrence? What about Bloodletters? 40 of them without a Herald:
Combat Phase 1
Tomb Guard suffer 13 casualties and inflict 8 casualties. 4 more Tomb Guard crumble from Unstable (Tomb Guard have +1 rank).

Skeletons suffer 17 casualties and inflict 4 casualties. 13 more Skeletons crumble from Unstable (they have even ranks).

[EDMM]

Combat Phase 2
Tomb Guard suffer 13 casualties and inflict 6 casualties. 7 more Tomb Guard crumble from Unstable (Bloodletters have +1 rank).

Skeletons suffer 17 casualties and inflict 4 casualties. 12 more Skeletons crumble from Unstable (Skeletons have +1 rank).

[EDMM]

Combat Phase 3
Tomb Guard suffer 10 casualties and inflict 1 casualty. Remainder of unit crumbles.

Skeletons suffer 16 casualties and inflict 4 casualties. 13 more Skeletons crumble from Unstable (they have even ranks).

[EDMM]

Combat Phase 4
Tomb Guard are chilling in hell.

Skeletons suffer 16 casualties and inflict 4 casualties. 13 more Skeletons crumble from Unstable (they have even ranks).

Combat Phase 5
Tomb Guard are chilling in hell.

Skeletons suffer 13 casualties and inflict 0 casualties. Remainder of unit crumbles.

So Skeletons inflict more casualties and survive 2 extra combat phases. How is that worse?

BTW, sorry for posting things like this, the forum literally wouldn't let me make my posts any bigger...

[Skyros]

Skeletons do. That's the context. I am comparing between Skeletons and Tomb Guard. Tomb Guard won't do 3 times better against these opponents than Skeletons.

Against units with high armor save, they will

[Skyros]

I think they do better.
And if you can't send your elite force against the enemies elites, what exactly do you send at them?

You are looking at this wrong. You have several elite units at your disposal.

Don't just reflexively send your elite infantry against their elite infantry. This doesn't work for empire either, by the way. I don't send my greatswords against their swordmasters. That would be stupid. That doesn't mean greatswords are worthless.

[Skyros]

Maybe their elite infantry is going to beat yours in a fight - so send something else at it. How is this a problem for people? If an enemy unit is going to kill your 10 point greatsword just as easily as a 5 point halberdier, you send in the 5 point halberdiers.

If your foe is lightly armored and has a lot of high strength attacks and is going to swing before your tomb guard (like swordmasters) - congrats, you've found a unit that nullifies most of the TG advantages. Maybe you should send your T8 sphinx in instead. That doesn't mean TG are bad, it means you are sending them against the wrong foe

[Skyros]

TG are for slicing open heavily armored elite troops with high S and killing blow attacks. I note that you compare them to people with almost no armor and a ward save. What if they are fighting empire greatswords or dwarf ironbreakers or empire knights or temple guard or chaos warriors or dark elf executioners?

What if there is a character in the unit? Most characters are going to be worried about 9 S5 killing blow attacks heading their way but they aren't going to care about 9 S3 attacks heading their way.


THIS 403 THING IS ********

[Skyros]

How does a warsphinx fare against swordmasters, actually? I don't have the book yet.

But it's T8, so the Sm's will be wounding on 6's, which takes away most of their punch. Are it's attacks S5? if so, no armor save for the SM's and it's wounding on 2's.

It might lose, but it's a construct, right? so takes one less crumble wound. have a BSB nearby for two less crumble wounds.

Most SM units I have seen are small enough that losses in the first round reduce # of attacks in the second.