Tactica: Tomb Kings 8th Edition Book

[TheKingInYellow]

Sphinxes should excel against glass cannon infantry like SMs. Only 4 in base contact, they get about 2 wounds (3 in horde formation) and then the sphinx can potentially gut the entire unit in one counter attack.

This is why my warsphinxes will always have the breath weapon, as a backup if Thundercrush misses.

[Chris_]

With lets say 25 SM in a horde they would do 2.6 wounds first turn. Warsphinx's crew kill 1 SM, Stomp kills another 3. Then the kicker comes, if you don't use thundercrush it will maybe kill another 1-2 SM, but if you manage to get in that Thundercrush (50% chance to hit) you will kill around 8 SM instead of the 1-2 by its normal attacks. Anyway it should win combat, even though the SM gets +1 for banner, rank and charge, or at least tie/loose with 1.
With breath that's another 4 SM dead. So if you manage to hit with Thundercrush and use the breath attack you should be able to kill around 16 SM in one turn. They will still roll with steadfast first turn but should die the next.

[Asymmetric]

And S3 Skeletons are going to flat out kill these troops are they? Unlikely. Character support is all fine as they take less casualties back, but they are still best used as an anvil. And no, it is not an assumption, they can't kill for ****, but what they can do is come in huge numbers deployed deep to hold up the enemy.

Yes, actually. Your at risk of boxing units into certain roles without actually exhausting the possibilities. It's more complicated than that. See below:

[Asymmetric]

I think they do better.

You can flat out beat 30 swordmasters if your using 680 points of tomb king infantry.

90xhand weapon and shield skelies + full command.
Tomb king + sword of bloodshed+potion of toughness+defence of choice.

That unit will smash 30 swordmasters in the third combat phase with half the unit still intact. No, they won't kill the tomb king and if they try they will lose the combat sooner.

[Asymmetric]

How does a warsphinx fare against swordmasters, actually? I don't have the book yet.

Well. One of the best.

Shooting the crap out of them or using impacts hits remains the most cost effective options however.

[Chris_]

Well. One of the best.

Shooting the crap out of them or using impacts hits is the most cost effective options however.

Impact hits? Yeah, you might kill like 8 SM before they get to strike back (with 4 chariots) but the return attacks from the remaining SM will kill your chariot unit dead...

[Skyros]

Damn, I forgot all about chariots.

So the TK book has several excellent ways of dealing with swordmasters. Who cares if tomb guard aren't one of them?

In my empire list I have nothing that beats them in h2h so I just have to shoot them to death.

(Sort of a lie: a horde of halberdiers with razor banner will actually win. Tee hee!)

[Asymmetric]

Impact hits? Yeah, you might kill like 8 SM before they get to strike back (with 4 chariots) but the return attacks from the remaining SM will kill your chariot unit dead...

Oh I certainly didn't mean to charge in against a horde of swordmasters with chariots alone, I meant in conjunction with firepower.

It's still pretty common for people to run them 7x2 though.

[Skyros]

And it's not as though TK have no shooting attacks...mortars shred SM, screaming skull catapult should easily reduce a pile of swordmasters to a weakened remnant that a chariot charge can sweep away.

That's your only way to get your licks in before the elves

[Maoriboy007]

[QUOTE=Skyros;5478120]What's really astounding is that they can't take a magical standard, but almost every variety of rat can.

Stubborn is nice, but I have had stubborn Ld9 troops with BSB re-roll break and flee before, so it can happen. Not crumbling is a big boost, although you would hope on such killy units you wouldn't be losing combats by big amounts to be subject to crumble..

Ive had units of 20+ crumble to nothing in a single phase and its not uncommon for it to happen in two.

[Maoriboy007]

The WS is a good point - I had assumed TG were WS4. If not, that's a point for the greatswords! Although I guess TG can have their WS raised by a prince/king.

And a Warpriest can give the Greatswords hatred. Charaters will generally improve any units performance, the difference being Undead units suffer just as much (if not more) without characters as they gain with them.

[Maoriboy007]

None of those unit types has a built-in healing method via a banner and custom spell lore though.

As far as I know TG don't either. TG can be healed with magic if you can cast a spell under the right conditions, but from what I can tell it won't be a lot against sheer casualties in battle.

[Maoriboy007]

If your lucky you might get a single spell off under current 8th edition conditions, and risk possibly blowing up your heirophant in the bargain. The balance against undead/crumbling is only there if you consider magic as a certainty, which is far from a certainty
If you want to consider magic in the equation you may as well consider that for around the same cost in spells your opponant can wipe out a lot more of the unit with offensive magic, or thier own support spells..

[Maoriboy007]

TG are for slicing open heavily armored elite troops with high S and killing blow attacks. I note that you compare them to people with almost no armor and a ward save. What if they are fighting empire greatswords or dwarf ironbreakers or empire knights or temple guard or chaos warriors or dark elf executioners?

Troops like that tend to win on cost, better stats or both.

*stupid 413 error!!!8

[GodlessM]

Funny that such an argument as running units alone into the front of horde Swordsmasters is part of a tactics thread

[GodlessM]

You are looking at this wrong. You have several elite units at your disposal.

Don't just reflexively send your elite infantry against their elite infantry. This doesn't work for empire either, by the way. I don't send my greatswords against their swordmasters. That would be stupid. That doesn't mean greatswords are worthless.

Glad to see somebody around here understands that fair comparison and theoryhammer isn't about stacking the odds in favour of your own personal opinion and comparing it flat out.

[GodlessM]

@Asymmetric; I'm not sure how you find your comparison fair? Firstly you have pitted your 680pt unit against the ~470pt High Elf unit. Secondly, you have assumed the High Elf general is stupid enough to throw away the potential of his elite killy unit by bogging it down in a sea of Skeletons. Thirdly you've assumed he'll be a double idiot and not just slice open your Tomb King right off the bat (not a problem for SM once your Potion is used). Lastly, would you bring that unit in an all comers list, 'cause I don't see many people doing it, which makes it a bad comparison even on face value.

Sorry if this is confusing, but whatever is wrong with Warseer now won't let me post the reply along with the original quote.

[GodlessM]

Anyway, I'm bowing out of this thread now. I've made my arguments and to be honest am kind of tired of trying to counter all of the 'my super magic buffed unit that's twice the cost of yours will win' posts (not aimed at any one person in particular).

[Skyros]

I do wish TK magic was less reliant on the winds of magic.

If the d3 from the casket stacked, ok, that might work

I do miss the reliability of no PD using bound spells. If the tk had added their 'wizard level' to the cast I think that might have been a good bandaid fix.

[Chris_]

Funny that such an argument as running units alone into the front of horde Swordsmasters is part of a tactics thread

Bad tactics are as much tactics as good ones... Seriously though, not everyone will agree and that is a good thing. These kind of comments are even more silly in a tactics thread.