Tactica: Tomb Kings 8th Edition Book

[Maoriboy007]

I think the big downside of the TK army is that if you take enough rediculously big and strong T8 models in the army, the enemy will always struggle to defeat you. The point costs should have been higher... and I play TKs so I should like the cost they actually have but in terms of having fun games I simply don't.

Im not sure I see how. 6s always wound , they crumble and are as vulnerable to warmachines and initiative based spells as any other monster. Its generally just as hard for RnF to kill an HPA or much cheaper Hydra as it is to kill any of the TK monsters - and they crumble!

[The_Bureaucrat]

It should be fair to mention that they dont get many of the benefits other charionts share and have all the standard weaknesses of undead.
All the other chariots have str 5 impact hits, can make charge reactions, have higher weaponskill and leadership, dont crumble. HE get ASF re-rolls - Khorne chariots are frenzied, Psycology doesnt really affect eany off them due to Frenzy fear or high Ld..

Everyone knows the crew can't hit anything. It's the horses that do all the wounds. Str 5 is nice but you pay for that.

Tk chariots have a lot of nice advantages too.

-They are core
-can have command, (musc is really nice)
-can take flamming banner (which is amazing when you thing about it)
-units can include characters
-can be given KB impact hits which can be situationally awesome (although it is dependant on magic)
- can be raised back with magic (d3+1)
-can be give ranks to negate ranks

[GreySeerZ]

Right, obviously TK chariots are not the best chariots in the game, and aren't the worst either. They have some benefits over traditional chariots, as well as some downfalls. If anything the sheer number of people supporting both sides of the argument should tell you that they are a reasonable consideration for core choice. This is, of course, all unsupported with any actual games.

Again, like every other unit, in this army especially, synergy is key. Just comparing chariots base to base with other chariots without taking into consideration the myriad of possibilities and combinations is like saying Sushi is better than Raw Fish (which are both technically raw fish). Its not what they are that makes them different, its how you serve it and what you serve it with.

[valdrog]

I played a game not long ago and one unit that ate through 3 units was my 30 strong Tomb Guard with halberds and full command, i placed a Tomb King and the Special Necrotek character in it. Frenzied Tomb Guard with Killing blow and Hatred at WS 6. I was able to cast the spell that lets them get KB on 5+ and the one with the extra attack on them.
I gave the king the +2 attack blade and he now had 8 attacks with hatred and strength 5, great rank and file killer, also with killing blow on a 6.
The ammount of attacks that unit dishes out is insane.

A unit of 3 chariots with the flaming banner and the spells for Killing blow and xtra attacks casted on them, is insane.
3d6 Killing blow flaming impact hits, then the horses and crew attack, 12 attacks from the horses alone, not sure if the mount also gets the killing blow, but the crew does. Thats a LOT of damage packed into 3 chariots, that can be healed and cause fear.

[static grass]

I played a game not long ago and one unit that ate through 3 units was my 30 strong Tomb Guard with halberds and full command, i placed a Tomb King and the Special Necrotek character in it. Frenzied Tomb Guard with Killing blow and Hatred at WS 6. I was able to cast the spell that lets them get KB on 5+ and the one with the extra attack on them.
I gave the king the +2 attack blade and he now had 8 attacks with hatred and strength 5, great rank and file killer, also with killing blow on a 6.
The ammount of attacks that unit dishes out is insane.

Deathstar is Deathstar.

[TheKingInYellow]

Just a thought about dealing with miscasts.

Since the spell effect happens before the miscast result, should you ever miscast on Desert Wind, why wouldn't you use the extra move to move your Liche out of their unit? Assuming that they can leave any edge of the unit the chances are good that you should be able to tuck the Liche away from any danger, and then you don't need to worry about a template shredding his bodyguard unit.

I don't know if you see the result of the miscast before you could take the move, but if you got the S10 template you could even suicide him into an enemy unit in range.

[Jericho]

I have gone over the BRB and the TK army book, KingInYellow, and I can't find anything that says you can't leave the unit when you miscast on Desert Wind. You would simply leave the unit, the unit has the option to move, and then you roll on the miscast chart once the spell has been fully resolved (including the Attribute's healing to the other affected units).

One thing to keep in mind, which I don't think has been emphasized clearly enough, is that you can't ever heal a character or his/her mount unless the spell/magic item specifically says it may be used to heal the character and/or his/her mount.

When I realized this, it made Chariots and Sphinxes much less attractive option for character mounts...

Anyway, so in the situation you describe, if the Priest runs out of the unit and doesn't die he can't be subsequently healed unless he has a Healing Potion or the Blade of Antarhak (though you deserve to be smacked upside the head if you put this on a Priest ).

[TheKingInYellow]

Something that is being discussed over at the TK forums: lore attributes are neither spells nor items, so that restriction does not appear to apply to the Restless Dead.

[Jericho]

They are looking too hard for a loophole. The Restless Dead says you heal in a very strict order. First the champion, then musician, then wounded (but not killed) rank and file, then slain rank and file. Period. Full stop. No mention of healing characters or mounts, except to say that they can't be healed.

You have to assume that an unridden Sphinx, Scorpion, etc. is considered a "rank and file" because it's neither command nor a mount. War machines are slightly unclear too I suppose.

[GreySeerZ]

Something that is being discussed over at the TK forums: lore attributes are neither spells nor items, so that restriction does not appear to apply to the Restless Dead.

I hope this is something that they eventually FAQ. For example, Warriors of Chaos cannot use any spells that regain wounds/models when using Third Eye of Tzeentch, however, the Lore of Life attribute can still be used to return wounds to models when a WoC sorcerer casts Life spells. In this vein I see it as possible that lore attributes are considered outside the realm of spells/items (as they are neither equipped or require power dice to cast, it is more just a bonus when things do cast successfuly).

Either way, hopefully a FAQ will arrive soon detailing how this works.

Q: Can a model with the Third Eye of Tzeentch cast any spells from
the Lore of Life as the lore attribute allows him to recover Wounds
lost earlier in the battle? (p111)
A: Yes, apart from Regrowth. The lore attribute’s effect is not
part of the spell itself.

Taken right from the WoC FAQ.

[Jericho]

Trust me, I get it. I have a Tzeentch WoC army that I've been playing since it came out.

The Attribute says you immediately heal D3+1 (sorry about the typo) wounds worth of models, as described by Resurrecting Fallen Warriors (p28). RFW on page 28 uses the same wording as Regrowth (Lore of Life) and once again specifically says you can't heal characters or their mounts.

Doesn't matter what you call it (spell or otherwise), the Restless Dead can't be used to heal characters or mounts because the Restless Dead attribute references the RFW rule, which gives you a clear method for healing wounds on command and "rank and file" models, but this method has no instructions for healing characters.

I did think of a way to heal characters/mounts though... it comes back to the Tomb King with a 100pt pointy hat and a 12.5% chance of rolling Lore of Life.

[GreySeerZ]

Trust me, I get it. I have a Tzeentch WoC army that I've been playing since it came out.

The Attribute says you immediately heal D3+2 wounds worth of models, as described by Restless Dead (p28). Restless Dead uses the same wording as Regrowth (Lore of Life) and once again specifically says you can't heal characters or their mounts.

Doesn't matter what you call it (spell or otherwise), the Lore Attribute says it can't be used to heal characters or mounts because the Restless Dead rule specifically says it can't.

I did think of a way to heal characters/mounts though... it comes back to the Tomb King with a 100pt pointy hat and a 12.5% chance of rolling Lore of Life.

Ah, ok. Having not read the book yet I assumed Restless Dead was some kind of army-wide special rule. If it says in the attribute that it can't heal Lords/mounts then it definitely can't heal Lords/mounts. I think I get my book today , but thank you for clearing that up!

[Marshal Augustine]

I can't seem to stress this enough. WS 5 Skeletons are amazing.
Best combo for a prince in the skeleton unit so far:
Glittering Scales, Dragonbane, HW, Shield. Very you cant hit me so I cant die... and therefore lives a long time and your skeletons capitalize on this .

Seems like a list of really good options in the book is forming:
Casket
Hierotitan
High Liche
Golden Mask

Those are the ones that seem to be more consistent in various armies that I have seen.

[Asymmetric]

Trust me, I get it. I have a Tzeentch WoC army that I've been playing since it came out.

The Attribute says you immediately heal D3+2 wounds worth of models, as described by Restless Dead (p28). Restless Dead uses the same wording as Regrowth (Lore of Life) and once again specifically says you can't heal characters or their mounts.

Doesn't matter what you call it (spell or otherwise), the Lore Attribute says it can't be used to heal characters or mounts because the Restless Dead rule specifically says it can't.

I did think of a way to heal characters/mounts though... it comes back to the Tomb King with a 100pt pointy hat and a 12.5% chance of rolling Lore of Life.

The lore attribute is D3+1 wounds.

Secondly the resurrecting fallen warriors passage on 28 only states that characters that have joined units cannot regain wounds. Characters which are not within a unit do seem however to be fair game to heal, given the lore attribute is neither a spell nor a magic item.

[Jericho]

I guess I did get my terminology a little bit wrong before. Restless Dead, the attribute, says to distribute wounds "as described in Resurrecting Fallen Warriors on page 28". Resurrecting Fallen Warriors lists the "strict order" in which wounds are allocated. Characters and mounts are not listed in this "strict order" and the only mention they get is to say they can't be healed by magic items or spells. If they join a unit that can be healed, the ability doesn't affect them either.

Where does it say you can heal characters?

I'll stop when you can show me somewhere in the TK army book that says you can. I've had a copy of the book for the last ~10 days so I can look it up if you find something.

[Asymmetric]

I guess I did get my terminology a little bit wrong before. Restless Dead, the attribute, says to distribute wounds "as described in Resurrecting Fallen Warriors on page 28". Resurrecting Fallen Warriors lists the "strict order" in which wounds are allocated. Characters and mounts are not listed in this "strict order" and the only mention they get is to say they can't be healed by magic items or spells. If they join a unit that can be healed, the ability doesn't affect them either.

Where does it say you can heal characters?

I'll stop when you can show me somewhere in the TK army book that says you can. I've had a copy of the book for the last ~10 days so I can look it up if you find something.

-Lone Characters
"Characters that have not joined another unit are treated as a separate unit of the appropriate type for all rules purposes."
pg.96 BRB

-The lore attribute states unit's regain D3+1 wounds.

-The lore attribute is neither a spell nor a magic item according to the faqs, thus is not restricted to healing characters or mounts.

-The wounds regained in a strict order is frankly irrelvant in units of 1. Such as necrosphinx's, collossus or ... lone characters. They aren't command options, there just rank and file multi wound models in there unit.


By all means, read all 7 pages of this thread.

[GreySeerZ]

-Lone Characters
"Characters that have not joined another unit are treated as a separate unit of the appropriate type for all rules purposes."
pg.96 BRB

-The lore attribute states unit's regain D3+1 wounds.

-The lore attribute is neither a spell nor a magic item according to the faqs, thus is not restricted to healing characters or mounts.

-The wounds regained in a strict order is frankly irrelvant in units of 1. Such as necrosphinx's, collossus or ... lone characters. They aren't command options, there just rank and file multi wound models in there unit.


By all means, read all 7 pages of this thread.

Right, so obviously they need to FAQ this. It is quite clear that they didn't want characters to get healed and there just happens to be a loophole where I can have my wounded Lord leave a unit, cast a spell, and return his wounds, and then later have him rejoin the unit, or stay solo to keep getting healed (which doesn't make any logical sense on the battlefield). My guess is GW will:

A. Step in, do the right thing, and state that TK characters cannot be healed (be it item/spell/attribute). I do not see them stepping in and saying, no, wait, never mind, you can heal characters in units now (though I wish they would ).

OR

B. Do what they normally do, never FAQ it, and every TK 'Ard Boyz general will have a pre-battle tactical plan for when to send their Lord running home to Liche Priest Mama

[Asymmetric]

Clarification would certainly help.

I have no idea one way or the other what the authors orginal intentions were however. The way it's written is in such a way as to make me believe restless deads wording was created in an earlier playtesting draft, possibily when we had different spells/lore attributes/items. I have no idea why it would specifically mention characters within units not being able to be healed unless it absolutely intended those outside them to be able to be.

All we can do is play by the rules as printed just now and wait to see if GW changes anything.

[Jericho]

I'm guessing the reference to characters in units was included to cover BoUL heals.

Anyway, I am not planning on reading another Rules thread when the answer is clear. The attribute says to allocate heals as per RFW. RFW gives no option of healing characters or mounts. Unless they rewrite the rule with Errata, it's case closed.

[Asymmetric]

The attribute says to allocate heals as per RFW. RFW gives no option of healing characters or mounts. Unless they rewrite the rule with Errata, it's case closed.

I don't understand what your talking about.

Lone characters are units. Units effected by the lore attribute regain D3+1 wounds. The lore attribute isn't a spell or a magic item. The order with which they are allocated is irrelvant in a unit of 1, first, last, it doesn't matter.

That is case closed.