What kind of cuisine do Dwarves and Elves have?

[Naanomi]

There's just too many predators and not enough prey.

We also have, mentioned in fluff but not statted out, Ice Elk (presumably a prey-worthy herbivore); Wolves (probably not high on the food chain in those mountains); Bears (omniverous and probably tastey); Hornets (Honey is good eating); and various species of birds (which means eggs)... and of course in some locations Humans (and with them horses) and Greenskins (and thus, Boars)

While we hear alot about the mountain peaks, I imagine that to complete the ecology we need a better picture of those 'fertile valleys' between them. I'd wager that abundant prey species are down there ripe for the picking, but Ogres themselves stick mostly to the high-country, eating the other predators that decend into the valley for meals themselves. Ogres eat a lot, but I picture them doing it in bursts; like Walrus or Seals with lots of time of 'lounging' inactivity between big feats that cut down on the food needs.

Plus, Ogre diet is probably supplemented with a great deal of Gnoblar, and Gnoblars are likely lichen-scrapers, rat hunters, grub diggers, nest-theives: all the ways of getting nutrients from the environment that is beneath an Ogre's notice and packaging it up in a crunchy green skin for them.


Dark Elves, though, are more problematic. Their chief source of food must either be magically derived (a little reckless use of Lore of Life and Lore of Beasts can keep people fed I imagine); or derived from humans (soylent maurauder); or (most likely) pulled from the sea: fish and kelp and whatnot; and 'big game hunting' in those monsterous waters: whale and kraken for dinner again!

[Drongol]

We also have, mentioned in fluff but not statted out, Ice Elk (presumably a prey-worthy herbivore); Wolves (probably not high on the food chain in those mountains); Bears (omniverous and probably tastey); Hornets (Honey is good eating); and various species of birds (which means eggs)... and of course in some locations Humans (and with them horses) and Greenskins (and thus, Boars)

I had forgotten entirely about the Elk, but again, we're talking about primarily predators here and not prey animals. And I'll add that, in the real world at least, bears and wolves are both considered apex predators and their behavior is largely predicated on a lack of natural predators.

While we hear alot about the mountain peaks, I imagine that to complete the ecology we need a better picture of those 'fertile valleys' between them. I'd wager that abundant prey species are down there ripe for the picking, but Ogres themselves stick mostly to the high-country, eating the other predators that decend into the valley for meals themselves. Ogres eat a lot, but I picture them doing it in bursts; like Walrus or Seals with lots of time of 'lounging' inactivity between big feats that cut down on the food needs.

I may be completely off here, but it was my understanding that the Ogres actually live in the valleys, judging by the descriptions of a Tyrant's domain, and only go into the peaks to hunt the predators that live up there. And the walrus analogy was brought up before on the Stronghold, but it has no basis in canon whatsoever.

Plus, Ogre diet is probably supplemented with a great deal of Gnoblar, and Gnoblars are likely lichen-scrapers, rat hunters, grub diggers, nest-theives: all the ways of getting nutrients from the environment that is beneath an Ogre's notice and packaging it up in a crunchy green skin for them.

Gnoblars seem to have been change to being nowhere near as numerous or ubiquitous in the Ogre tribes (which is a good thing). In fact, if we go by what has been described by the current Ogre book, their most common meal seems to be the herd animals of other races.

[woodster17]

I had forgotten entirely about the Elk, but again, we're talking about primarily predators here and not prey animals. And I'll add that, in the real world at least, bears and wolves are both considered apex predators and their behavior is largely predicated on a lack of natural predators.

I may be completely off here, but it was my understanding that the Ogres actually live in the valleys, judging by the descriptions of a Tyrant's domain, and only go into the peaks to hunt the predators that live up there. And the walrus analogy was brought up before on the Stronghold, but it has no basis in canon whatsoever.

Well the discussion of prey animals is kind of relevant here since the basis of the argument about whether the Ogre concept is realistic is whether there is enough food to satisfy the apex predators that you alluded to. Since we don't really get told how abundant herbivores that aren't predators are in the Mountains of Mourn we can't really take too many guesses. My point of view is optimistic, GW thought it through and decided that no matter how abundant the prey they weren't overly important in OK fluff :P

I would agree with you on the second point, I had envisaged them living mainly at valley level or only slightly higher. Given the descriptions of the amount of predators on the higher slopes (combined with the hostile environment) you would have thought that if the Ogres had any sense they would remain where they would be the truly dominant predator. Bears and wolves in the real world aren't really compatible with the Mountains of Mourn. As fearsome as they are I'd imagine they would get horribly picked on. Wolves as canines would probably be picked on by the larger and more fearsome feline sabertusks. That being said, given GW's propensity for making everything comparable to the real world twice as dangerous in the Warhammer World the wolves would likely be horse size monstrosities

[Drongol]

Well the discussion of prey animals is kind of relevant here since the basis of the argument about whether the Ogre concept is realistic is whether there is enough food to satisfy the apex predators that you alluded to.

I'm sorry--apparently I wasn't clear enough there. What I meant was that, with the exception of the Elk, the animals listed are predators, typically apex ones (meaning that, in their environment, they are not subject to predation themselves).

Effectively, we are seeing a huge variety of pack-oriented predators (wolves, mournfangs, and sabertusks) and a handful of solitary ones (bears, thundertusks). Let's look at a relatively similar creature to the sabertusk: the tiger. Generally speaking, they consume between 30 and 40 pounds of flesh per day. That's quite a lot of meat.

Remember that sabertusks are pack animals and that, if we use the AB entry as an example, they can operate in groups of up to 10 adults. They are also one of the smaller predators we know of in the Mountains of Mourn. Range and distribution can be fudged, perhaps, but to provide 400+ pounds of meat a day, we're talking about a huge dent on an ecosystem.

I admit this is horribly off-topic, but it's interesting nonetheless.

[woodster17]

I'm sorry--apparently I wasn't clear enough there. What I meant was that, with the exception of the Elk, the animals listed are predators, typically apex ones (meaning that, in their environment, they are not subject to predation themselves).

Effectively, we are seeing a huge variety of pack-oriented predators (wolves, mournfangs, and sabertusks) and a handful of solitary ones (bears, thundertusks). Let's look at a relatively similar creature to the sabertusk: the tiger. Generally speaking, they consume between 30 and 40 pounds of flesh per day. That's quite a lot of meat.

Remember that sabertusks are pack animals and that, if we use the AB entry as an example, they can operate in groups of up to 10 adults. They are also one of the smaller predators we know of in the Mountains of Mourn. Range and distribution can be fudged, perhaps, but to provide 400+ pounds of meat a day, we're talking about a huge dent on an ecosystem.

I admit this is horribly off-topic, but it's interesting nonetheless.

No, I know what you were saying, you were clear and I agree with you on the amount of apex predators that you have alluded to in previous posts. I don't really think we can take this discussion further unless we truly know what time of animals inhabit the MoM that aren't mentioned in the AB. I wish we did because it's an interesting topic. Alas, fluff is fairly rare about the OK.

[Athlan na Dyr]

Unfortunately, Dark Elves make no sense and there's no way to make their society work. Greenskins have their mushrooms and squigs, Skaven have rats, fungi, black corn, and cannibalism, but Dark Elves need a complete rewrite if they're ever going to be believable as a society, or as a threat. The official High Elf policy regarding their twisted kin should be something like "Give them two weeks, then we'll deal with the handful of survivors."

I must admit I've always envisioned Naggaroth as being very similar in climate to Russia (they even have a mad leader who enjoys killing his own troops ala Stalin...) and the last time I checked Russians are perfectly capable of growing a reasonable quantity of food.
Add in large amounts of game, such as pseudo-reindeer and perhaps Cold Ones, supplemented with raided goods, such as preserved meats, preserved vegetables and cheeses, leads to a reasonably wide range of food sources.

I always assumed that the Dark Elves survive on the back of the labour of a huge number of slaves. Of course, the whole "a DE slave has a lifespan of twenty minutes" nonsense damages that proposal, but I like to think that's just hype.

IIRC the 20 minutes is if you're a sacrifice for the temple (as in it takes 20 minutes from getting off the boat to having your life bleed out for Khaine.).

[Drongol]

I must admit I've always envisioned Naggaroth as being very similar in climate to Russia (they even have a mad leader who enjoys killing his own troops ala Stalin...) and the last time I checked Russians are perfectly capable of growing a reasonable quantity of food.
Add in large amounts of game, such as pseudo-reindeer and perhaps Cold Ones, supplemented with raided goods, such as preserved meats, preserved vegetables and cheeses, leads to a reasonably wide range of food sources.

Russians also have something Dark Elves do not: a work ethic.

The problem with Dark Elves is far more than climate, although that's certainly not helping. It's societal as well. They rely entirely on unwilling and highly mistreated slaves to sustain their society and engage in murder as a hobby. And yet they somehow thrive while High Elves are in decline, with a far more favorable climate, fuller access to the sea, and no national pastime of decimating their own population. Go figure.

[TheDungen]

The line between serfdom and slavery is a fine one. and russia did one of them the dark elfs does the other.

Anyway when it comes to Ulthuan i think we need to considers is a continent not a kingdom. The food will differ vastly between the kingdoms. The Southern lands are warm and fertile, the inner lands are warmer and more fertile than their similar outer ones. Breadbaskets would be Sapehery Ellyrion and Eataine. The food will likely be as soemone said roman and greek, that means thigns like dried/smoked meat and bread will be common concept. I don't see elves doing salted food though. Beer and mead will be virtually non existent. in ancient Greece and Rome wine wasn't a luxury that way since it was the only alcohol they had.
Also I think alot of the meat they eat come from the monsters that come down from the anulli, they have to kill them anyway and I have a hard time seeing elves let anything that Isha/Ulthuan bestows upon them go to waste. They also doesn't risk corruption since elves are highly resistant to mutation anyway.
For the Chracians being worshippers of Kornous i think they would eat the meat of the white lion. Letting the beast rot in the wilds doesn't seem like a way to honour a worthy opponent.

I see high elf food as simple but very well made. When a high elf makes bread he makes normal bread but where a human baker have made bread at best fifty years an elvish baker might have made bread for nearly a thousand.
That said they'll also have those who have made what they do to an artform. But i dont think that is what they eat everyday (aside maybe from at the court)

[TheDungen]

Russians also have something Dark Elves do not: a work ethic.

The problem with Dark Elves is far more than climate, although that's certainly not helping. It's societal as well. They rely entirely on unwilling and highly mistreated slaves to sustain their society and engage in murder as a hobby. And yet they somehow thrive while High Elves are in decline, with a far more favorable climate, fuller access to the sea, and no national pastime of decimating their own population. Go figure.

Well when the High elves are tilling the soil to get food the dark elves are breeding =P

[Count Demandred]

As pointed out, Ulthuan appears to comprise most climates known to man, though I've always imagined it's sunny there pretty much all the damn time. A species with their control over magic who want to live in an idyllic paradise can damn well tell the weather what it's going to do each morning.

My thoughts exactly. I suspect the weather in Ulthuan is mostly akin to our Spring time. Especially considering their magical prowess, and thus (no doubt) their ability to manipulate weather patterns.

[Lars Porsenna]

One thing I want to point out about Dark Elves is that the vast majority of their "territory" is well within the treeline, so would be perfectly fine for farming (soil conditions aside). The current book in fact talks about large plantations in this area solely for food production to feed the cities.

Damon.

[baphomael]

I must admit I've always envisioned Naggaroth as being very similar in climate to Russia (they even have a mad leader who enjoys killing his own troops ala Stalin...) and the last time I checked Russians are perfectly capable of growing a reasonable quantity of food.
Add in large amounts of game, such as pseudo-reindeer and perhaps Cold Ones, supplemented with raided goods, such as preserved meats, preserved vegetables and cheeses, leads to a reasonably wide range of food sources.



IIRC the 20 minutes is if you're a sacrifice for the temple (as in it takes 20 minutes from getting off the boat to having your life bleed out for Khaine.).

It's worth noting that Russia doesn't have *a* climate, but several. It's not all 'ice and snow' all the time. Remember, Russia covers about a sixth of the entire planet, and the soviet union stretched from the Eastern European breadbaskets, like Ukraine, to the far eastern coastal ports of Vladivostok.

Naggaroth, on the other hand, seems to be all ice and snow all the time - the worst European Russian winter all the time.

[Arnizipal]

The current book in fact talks about large plantations in this area solely for food production to feed the cities.

IIRC this has been in the background since at least 5th edition.

Naggaroth, on the other hand, seems to be all ice and snow all the time - the worst European Russian winter all the time.

It's not winter all the time, it's just very chilly even in summer.

[roirin]

i think the difference with High elves and Dark elves is that high elves are slowly going sterile (Giantslayer). I m guessing a large portion of their population is made up of really old elves who can t/don t want to have kids anymore and due to constant invasions their numbers are in decline. The dark elves life style on the other hand leads to a very high birth rate and really high death rate more like humans. If you compared the average elf ages between high and dark there is probably a big gap.

[The bearded one]

is that high elves are slowly going sterile (Giantslayer).

that's new to me. Interesting..

[Arnizipal]

that's new to me. Interesting..

Same here. Don't remember that bit from when I read it (which admittedly was quite some time ago).

[stormblade]

Teclis ponders a bit on the lower birthrate of his people and wonders if it has something to do with the weakening of the old magics (paths of the OO and some elven stones). I don't think he actually says that they are going sterile.

[TheDungen]

God I wish they'd just ditch that old LOTR relic of elves being a dying race. Make it that they're fewer than they used to be and past their golden age and the future is uncertain instead. By now it seems they're implementing mcguffins just to keep that piece of fluff that doesn't fit well with the fact they they'll be fielding horde unit just like everyone else in 8th edition.