Daemons army list for Kings of War

[MalusCalibur]

Daemons being my favourite aspect of Chaos from Warhammer, I thought I'd take a shot at migrating them into the KoW ruleset.

When designing the list I made the units powerful, but costly - I felt they should be as elite as you can get! To integrate all the 'resistances' Daemons have in WHFB (Ward save, ItP, Instability), I gave each unit slightly higher Nerve values, and came up with an army special rule to reflect the effects of Fear.

The points values for the units are based on the most similar equivalents from the other races, with adjustments made for the army rule/altered stats.

I should point out that I havn't had any opportunity to playtest this list at all, so any and all feedback I can gather would be greatly appreciated!

EDIT [16/08/12]: Version 2.0 added! Attachment below.

Last Update: [16/08/12]

[Baragash]

I don't see how the "minions" rule adds anything to the list. People who like their mono-god flavour will stick to single god units, people who like the slightly changed modern fluff will mix their gods (and ignore the rule) anyway.

[MalusCalibur]

I don't see how the "minions" rule adds anything to the list. People who like their mono-god flavour will stick to single god units, people who like the slightly changed modern fluff will mix their gods (and ignore the rule) anyway.

I guess the motivation behind that rule was to ensure that, in order to take the rather potent Hero characters, some representation of the relevant power was required - to go some way to preventing the 'Bloodthirster leading a Tzeentch army' syndrome that WHFB Daemons suffered from. It isn't supposed to completely remove the mixed army approach, but mitigate it a little in the name of background.

[mattjgilbert]

I think you've discounted the larger unit formations too much. I've not checked the base values against other races for comparison (I'm guessing you did) but your calculation from small formation to larger formation seems to apply too much of a discount.

Normally going from a half-regiment to a regiment only increases the Nerve. On the Succubi you've also increased the number of attacks. That's fine if you intended it but you've not accounted for that in the points value. Same thing with the Succubus cavalry: you've given 2 more attacks than you might expect but not accounted for it in the cost.

The Formless Ones need to be a LOT more expensive if you are giving them Zap! (10). Magic use is very expensive in KoW in terms of points value. If I took your list now I'd spam the table with Formless ones and Zap my way to victory in about 3 turns...
I think a better idea is to give them a non-magic ranged attack.

Behemoth Nerve going from 1 model to 3 seems wrong. Drop the single model to Nerve 2 and then you have a progression of 2, 4, 7.

You need to revisit the point values of your greater daemons. Use the other-race Heroes (like the Elven Lord on Battle Dragon) for comparison. For example - your Lord of War matches the Elf Lord on Dragon on the stat line. They both have Fly and and Inspiring. You have one better Crushing Strength and Terrifying but also a restrictive (Minions) rule. The Elf Lord has a Breath (15) attack which I'd say is the equal in points to your CS and Terrifying skills.Your Daemon is 60 points more expensive though.

Also - only one greater daemon has Crushing Strength. The Champion and Warseekers are stronger!


You might need to rethink the Dominion rule. Does using it mean the unit can be forced to take multiple Nerve tests in the same turn? That breaks the rules. Here's 2 ideas of how to change the rule:

1. Adding +1 to any Nerve test the unit has to make for the rest of that turn. This would need careful wording to determine if it was cumulative with other (e.g. Terrifying, another Dominion attack) modifiers or not.
2. Dominion (6) is a 24" ranged attack. It always hits on a 4+ regardless of modifiers. If you score 3 or more hits, the target unit becomes Wavering. If the target unit is a Horde, you need to score 4 or more hits to make it Wavering.



For Terrifying, I think it would be better to say that when a unit with the rule attacks an enemy unit in Melee which doesn't have the rule, you a +1 modifier to any resulting Nerve roll. This should be +1 no matter how many Terrifying units are involved.



I hope this feedback is valuable. I too have a Daemon army so it's good to see a list being developed. Good work Once it's refined, I'll add it to the list of armies in the sticky at the top of the forum.

[MalusCalibur]

I think you've discounted the larger unit formations too much. I've not checked the base values against other races for comparison (I'm guessing you did) but your calculation from small formation to larger formation seems to apply too much of a discount.

Altogether very possible, yes. In which case the regiments will get an increase in points.

Normally going from a half-regiment to a regiment only increases the Nerve. On the Succubi you've also increased the number of attacks. That's fine if you intended it but you've not accounted for that in the points value. Same thing with the Succubus cavalry: you've given 2 more attacks than you might expect but not accounted for it in the cost.

Honestly, I thought I *had* accounted for it, but if observation shows that they are too cheap then by all means they will get an increase in points
The extra attacks are indeed intentional, to mark the Succubi out more than just being fast.

The Formless Ones need to be a LOT more expensive if you are giving them Zap! (10). Magic use is very expensive in KoW in terms of points value. If I took your list now I'd spam the table with Formless ones and Zap my way to victory in about 3 turns...
I think a better idea is to give them a non-magic ranged attack.

For the sake of flavour I'd be happier if they got to keep 'Zap' as opposed to just a normal Ranged attack, but I see what you're saying. Perhaps halving it to Zap! (5)?

Behemoth Nerve going from 1 model to 3 seems wrong. Drop the single model to Nerve 2 and then you have a progression of 2, 4, 7.

Quite right - that one was just a typo! It was always meant to be 2.

You need to revisit the point values of your greater daemons. Use the other-race Heroes (like the Elven Lord on Battle Dragon) for comparison. For example - your Lord of War matches the Elf Lord on Dragon on the stat line. They both have Fly and and Inspiring. You have one better Crushing Strength and Terrifying but also a restrictive (Minions) rule. The Elf Lord has a Breath (15) attack which I'd say is the equal in points to your CS and Terrifying skills.Your Daemon is 60 points more expensive though.

Indeed the Elf Lord was where I drew my comparisons for the Lord of War, at least. The rationale for the higher cost was the substantial difference CS(3) made over (2), and originally he (and all the Greater Daemons) had Nerve 10, but I thought that a little overpowered!
A lower cost for them all, then.

Also - only one greater daemon has Crushing Strength. The Champion and Warseekers are stronger!

Indeed! That was in part trying to keep all the different Daemons different in terms of what they did, although for the other Greater Daemons perhaps a CS(1) would be reasonable, to represent their size.

You might need to rethink the Dominion rule. Does using it mean the unit can be forced to take multiple Nerve tests in the same turn? That breaks the rules. Here's 2 ideas of how to change the rule:

1. Adding +1 to any Nerve test the unit has to make for the rest of that turn. This would need careful wording to determine if it was cumulative with other (e.g. Terrifying, another Dominion attack) modifiers or not.
2. Dominion (6) is a 24" ranged attack. It always hits on a 4+ regardless of modifiers. If you score 3 or more hits, the target unit becomes Wavering. If the target unit is a Horde, you need to score 4 or more hits to make it Wavering.

Admittedly no, it was not intended to be able to cause multiple tests in one turn - an oversight in the writing of the rule there.
1) is my preferred choice out of your ideas, though it seems somehow a little underwhelming. What about a combination of the two - Dominion as a ranged attack that hits on 4+, but for each hit it adds +1 to any Nerve test taken that turn? It would perhaps need to be less than 6 'shots' to be fair, though. Under this iteration, I'm thinking of giving a toned down version to the Succubi as well (if for no other reason than to give the (x) a reason to exist rather than a 'hard-wired' number of shots), though they would have to lose their bonus attacks as a balance.

For Terrifying, I think it would be better to say that when a unit with the rule attacks an enemy unit in Melee which doesn't have the rule, you a +1 modifier to any resulting Nerve roll. This should be +1 no matter how many Terrifying units are involved.

A qualifier that it can't affect models with the same rule is definetely needed, however for simplicity's sake I'm loathe to specifiy melee only, and then the further qualifier of only +1 regardless of the number of units - the rule seems to get a bit bogged down in its own explanations that way.

I hope this feedback is valuable. I too have a Daemon army so it's good to see a list being developed. Good work Once it's refined, I'll add it to the list of armies in the sticky at the top of the forum.

Valuable and much appreciated, yes - thanks for your time in giving it! I'll get a revised version of the list up in the first post.

[mattjgilbert]

How "Southern" is Southern UK?

[AlexHolker]

One thing I'd do, assuming you're planning to add more units: break the list up into four sublists, by god. This would fulfill the same role as the Minions rule by limiting each steady unit to unlocking leaders from the same sublist, and as Evil factions they can all ally with each other anyway. If you want to avoid mentioning GW's gods, you could use the theme of the downfall of civilisations: war, plague, hedonism and treachery.

[MalusCalibur]

How "Southern" is Southern UK?

Brighton area. So about as southern as one can get short of Cornwall

One thing I'd do, assuming you're planning to add more units: break the list up into four sublists, by god. This would fulfill the same role as the Minions rule by limiting each steady unit to unlocking leaders from the same sublist, and as Evil factions they can all ally with each other anyway. If you want to avoid mentioning GW's gods, you could use the theme of the downfall of civilisations: war, plague, hedonism and treachery.

In all honesty, I hadn't planned to add any other units. I see where you're coming from, but I think that seperation would present the same issue as the current GW mono-god lists - just not enough variety for each. Of course I could always invent new units, but for the moment I'd rather keep the list strictly 'transferable' from WHFB, just for simplicitys sake.

[mattjgilbert]

Well our group are in and around the Worthing area so pm me if you want a game

There are some missing units you could still add... Flamers, Beasts..

[MalusCalibur]

Well our group are in and around the Worthing area so pm me if you want a game

There are some missing units you could still add... Flamers, Beasts..

Worthing's a little out of my way but hell, I may still take you up on that at some point. Lord knows decent wargaming is long dead here!

There are still Flamers, Screamers, Hounds, Beasts, Nurglings, and Fiends. However, splitting the list up into the four gods sublists then only gives three units for each list, and one character (possibly two) - I just prefer the 'all in' version. I could always add the others to it, though, yes. Perhaps later!

[AlexHolker]

In all honesty, I hadn't planned to add any other units. I see where you're coming from, but I think that seperation would present the same issue as the current GW mono-god lists - just not enough variety for each. Of course I could always invent new units, but for the moment I'd rather keep the list strictly 'transferable' from WHFB, just for simplicitys sake.

The sublist idea doesn't stop you using them as a single army, it just fulfils the same role as your Minions rule by requiring one solid unit of god X per hero of god X.

[MalusCalibur]

The sublist idea doesn't stop you using them as a single army, it just fulfils the same role as your Minions rule by requiring one solid unit of god X per hero of god X.

Well, true, but some 'purists' might prefer to play without allies (i.e. using one list) and I think it's better to stick with the mixed list. After all, these arn't GW daemons so there aren't any rivalries to speak of

Nevertheless, thanks for your input

[MalusCalibur]

With the advent of the new rulebook, I took the liberty of revisiting my Daemon list and (hopefully) improving it. As well as enough new units to cover just about every Daemon unit type from that other wargame, the older ones have also had some changes, to either improve their match to their background, or just balance them.

The old army special rule has been toned down a bit, while the 'Domination' rule has been replaced by the 'Shatter Spirit' rule - functionally similar but available to more units than just the Succubus Queen. The 'Minions' rule has also been changed; renamed to 'Daemon Lord', and including a further caveat.

The overall feel of the army has been maintained: units are highly capable (as they should be), but limited in number (as they should be!) with no access to Horde formations. It's a small force, yet one whose units will be feared. And hopefully not a big old ball of imbalance!

The file is attached, both here and in the first post. Let me know what you think!