Army Book Re-writes!

[Leth Shyish'phak]

EDIT: Since it isn't apparent in my original post, I just want to say here that the following rules are not intended for use alongside official army books; they're only "balanced" with each other. My original intention was to write a super-duper-awesome WoC army book that wasn't as bland as the official one, that sort of turned into re-writing every army book to be a bit crazy and over the top. So, if when reading one of the files an army seems far too good, please take a look at the other files before calling me a fanboy of that specific army.

As you may remember, a few months ago I posted two army books that I had written: Warriors of Chaos and Daemons of Chaos. I also threatened to write my own version of every other army book. And so here they are!

Well, not quite...

Here are the original two, presented with a few changes from the originals (some quite important ones too... I can't believe that no one spotted I hadn't included rules for Chaos Armour...) as well as two completely new books!

So here they are; Warriors of Chaos, Daemons of Chaos, Empire and High Elves!

Please be very excited and give me lots of praise!

Wait... This is the internet. Ok, please tell me what you think, all comments and criticisms are welcome. This time, I don't want anyone saying that they can't comment because there's nothing to compare them to.

If anyone could play a game or two with them and tell me what they're like, that would make me very happy (especially if you can go along to the Games Workshop in Aberdeen, Scotland so I can actually use them myself ).

Next, (after my exams), I'll probably be trying to do my Orcs and Goblins book. Or maybe Lizardmen. Who knows?

[theunwantedbeing]

Right empire.
Mainline unit...irrelevant special rule.
I like the blackpowder weapon rule.
Clever idea with the runefang.
Right....empire handgun, big no-no.
Pikes should count as a defended obstacle, not the silly ASF and boosted strength.
Given that your handguns are st5, anything based on this gets silly.
Hmm....officer, lets the unit shoot in 4 ranks.
Okay....this is a fanboi absurd codex it seems....I'll just give up for now.

Wow, there's just so much that's completely broken and filthy in this empire book.

And the High elf book is much the same.....eep

[Leth Shyish'phak]

Right empire.
Mainline unit...irrelevant special rule.

...What? I'm not sure what you mean here. Why is preventing Greatswords and pikemen from being detachments irrelevant?

I like the blackpowder weapon rule.
Clever idea with the runefang.

Thanks, I wanted some way of making it a viable choice... I've never seen one used, ever.

Right....empire handgun, big no-no.
Pikes should count as a defended obstacle, not the silly ASF and boosted strength.
Given that your handguns are st5, anything based on this gets silly.
Hmm....officer, lets the unit shoot in 4 ranks.
Okay....this is a fanboi absurd codex it seems....I'll just give up for now.

Wow, there's just so much that's completely broken and filthy in this empire book.

Would you mind explaining your reasoning here? Have you read any of the other three? Wouldn't want the Empire book having an answer to anything from the other books, now would we?

Perhaps I should have restated that my intention was to make a version of the army books where everything is a bit over the top, trying to emphasise the traits of each book. Yes, S5 handguns and ASF S4 pikes sound good if compared to the official books, but then you start comparing them to a T9 Greater Daemon, and realise that they're not the most broken thing ever made.

These rules are only intended to be used with each other, not with the official army books.

[theunwantedbeing]

If its all supposed to be over the top, then sure, its fine.

[DaemonReign]

Hey man I've seen some of these re-writes of yours before.

Afraid I gotta agreed with "theunwantedbeing" in general. All though if you re-write All army books then I suppose there will be a "new" balance since all of the books will be equally overpowered.

Specifically about Daemons -

You got alot of cool details, like for example the "master of war" ability of the Bloodthirster which I think is really cool.

at the same time, you just can't have the GD's cost that much in base-cost. You need to be able to field them (at least vanilla) in a 2-2,5k game. Starting from around 600 points is just not serious in 8th Ed.

It also seems you have removed the army wide daemonic wardsave. Something I am wholy against.

It doesn't seem you've added much since I last looked through this. You have some lists though, I glanced through them but High Elves and Empire just doesn't interest me as much as Daemons.. hehehe.. in the end like I said already: If you do all the book I guess this could work, but each of your re-writes in themselves are just not balanced for Warhammer.

[Leth Shyish'phak]

Specifically about Daemons -

You got alot of cool details, like for example the "master of war" ability of the Bloodthirster which I think is really cool.

at the same time, you just can't have the GD's cost that much in base-cost. You need to be able to field them (at least vanilla) in a 2-2,5k game. Starting from around 600 points is just not serious in 8th Ed.

It also seems you have removed the army wide daemonic wardsave. Something I am wholy against.

Where I play, every game is at least 3000 points, I suppose that's the reason I didn't really think about smaller games. Although, a Greater Daemon turning up for such a small game always seems odd.

As for the ward save, its right there under the Daemon special rule.

It doesn't seem you've added much since I last looked through this. You have some lists though, I glanced through them but High Elves and Empire just doesn't interest me as much as Daemons.. hehehe.. in the end like I said already: If you do all the book I guess this could work, but each of your re-writes in themselves are just not balanced for Warhammer.

Not many big changes, no. Some important stuff like Daemonic Chariots, but mostly small changes.

They're not supposed to be for normal warhammer. They're only supposed to be used with each other.

[DaemonReign]

They're not supposed to be for normal warhammer. They're only supposed to be used with each other.

Well in that case I suppose 'All is Fair' really as far as your balance goes.

All though I must say it would seem more natural to try and balance a re-write toward that actual system it's originally part of. But I mean.. sheesh.. that's not a critique of your work really just a reflection.

I missed that wardsave bit. It's just I saw some unit entry (I think at least) that said a certain unit had 6+ Ward and thus I assumed the armywide 5+Ward was gone.. Silly me.

[Jack of Blades]

Muhuheheheheheeee!

Honoured Leth shyish'phak, you must continue with your scribings

[Col. Tartleton]

Well in that case I suppose 'All is Fair' really as far as your balance goes.

All though I must say it would seem more natural to try and balance a re-write toward that actual system it's originally part of. But I mean.. sheesh.. that's not a critique of your work really just a reflection.

I missed that wardsave bit. It's just I saw some unit entry (I think at least) that said a certain unit had 6+ Ward and thus I assumed the armywide 5+Ward was gone.. Silly me.

Why would you want to balance the system towards lists it isn't supposed to balanced with?

That's like balancing the Empire Armybook against Tyrannid Codex...

[Leth Shyish'phak]

Well in that case I suppose 'All is Fair' really as far as your balance goes.

All though I must say it would seem more natural to try and balance a re-write toward that actual system it's originally part of. But I mean.. sheesh.. that's not a critique of your work really just a reflection.

But why though? If I'm redoing everything, I don't see that it matters. After going nuts on my Chaos book (I'm fed up of bland Chaos books ) I can't really go back on it for the others. And its more fun for me this way.

I missed that wardsave bit. It's just I saw some unit entry (I think at least) that said a certain unit had 6+ Ward and thus I assumed the armywide 5+Ward was gone.. Silly me.

I'll have to have a look for that, not sure what it could be though.

Muhuheheheheheeee!

Honoured Leth shyish'phak, you must continue with your scribings

Ooh, I suppose that I could do that, just for you. I feel tempted to sig that...

Why would you want to balance the system towards lists it isn't supposed to balanced with?

That's like balancing the Empire Armybook against Tyrannid Codex...

Exactly my point! If everything is overpowered, nothing is. Maybe. I hope so...

[Overlord92]

Exactly my point! If everything is overpowered, nothing is. Maybe. I hope so...

If everything is overpowered. first turn = win. It becomes more of a race and a rng game rather than a tactical one. Now believe me, that's not to say I don't like what you've done with some of the rules, i think many are really fun and really cool. the real chaos book is somewhat bland with the current marks it has.

[N810]

Hmmm kinda looks like the High elves went from overpowered to super over powered...

[Petey]

Right empire.
Mainline unit...irrelevant special rule.
I like the blackpowder weapon rule.
Clever idea with the runefang.
Right....empire handgun, big no-no.
Pikes should count as a defended obstacle, not the silly ASF and boosted strength.
Given that your handguns are st5, anything based on this gets silly.
Hmm....officer, lets the unit shoot in 4 ranks.
Okay....this is a fanboi absurd codex it seems....I'll just give up for now.

Wow, there's just so much that's completely broken and filthy in this empire book.

And the High elf book is much the same.....eep

Where the heck is my like button. Great post unwanted.
Mainline is ok, except that it only applies to one unit.
I liked the blackpowder rule too, Runefang was good too, except for the cost.
Absolutely agree about the Pikes, spear, counts as an obstacle (ie dangerous terrain test), fight in +whatever ranks.

The officer rules might be ok if it was you get to pick one of the following rules that the guy is trained in. But to get all of them... for 40 points... yeah... smells like fanboi

[Petey]

If Empire gets the rewrite, I would rather see the Captain and General get to pick from the list below, kind of like man eaters.

Optional, pick one of the following for 25pts

-Duelist +2WS and I. Parry on a 5+. May buy light armor
-WitchHunter Pistol Crossbow range 12" s3 Multishot3 Quick to fire. Hatred. Free light armor. May buy Heavy Armor
-Politician +6" to inspiring presence/hold your ground. May buy Heavy Armor
-Soldier Stubborn. Free Heavy armor. May buy Plate
-Pirate/Outlaw Reroll distances for flee/pursuit, reroll one die for charging
-Noble Gromgril Armor (3+ armor save). Any 1 state unit may take a 50pt banner for each noble in the army

[popisdead]

I wrote a long response but as soon as I saw you made the Banner of Rage grant Hatred to a Frenzy unit I deleted it all.

I think it's fun to write these but in the end don't expect it to be taken all that serious. Maybe try it out with your friends and see what they say. It shows how hard it is to write a balanced army book and how easily it can be broken without intent, especially when developers claim the write rules to fit fluff/models.

[Leth Shyish'phak]

Well, first of all I'd like to thank you all for your comments; its always nice when people take the time to read my stuff, whether you like it or not.

Hmmm kinda looks like the High elves went from overpowered to super over powered...

Where the heck is my like button. Great post unwanted.
Mainline is ok, except that it only applies to one unit.
I liked the blackpowder rule too, Runefang was good too, except for the cost.
Absolutely agree about the Pikes, spear, counts as an obstacle (ie dangerous terrain test), fight in +whatever ranks.

The officer rules might be ok if it was you get to pick one of the following rules that the guy is trained in. But to get all of them... for 40 points... yeah... smells like fanboi

Would I be correct in saying that the two of you only read one of the files, High Elves and Empire respectively? I'm referring to your claims that both are overpowered/fanboyism (this is now a word, my spellcheck can suck it); both of the Chaos files in the OP have plenty of things just as good as or better than things in the High Elves and Empire files (and the Greenskins army list I was making before my hard drive broke ).

Petey, to address your specific points; Mainline Unit applies to both Greatswords and Pikemen, I'm not really sure what the problem is there. What was wrong with the cost of the Runefang? Too much or too little? If you think its too much, you have to remember that it can only be taken by a model with Ws4 and A2. As for the pike rules, they might require a rethink, the whole strength bonus + asf was perhaps a little too much; although I think they should still have some sort of strength bonus against chargers. With the officer rules, you pay 40 points per unit (at the very minimum) for a character that is very easily killed as soon as you reach combat; in addition, both combat orders have fairly serious disadvantages/risks to their use.

I wrote a long response but as soon as I saw you made the Banner of Rage grant Hatred to a Frenzy unit I deleted it all.

Nononononononono, I want long responses. I take it you liked the Banner of Rage thing then? Sorry, I can't really tell from your post if you loved it or it made you so angry that you deleted your post.

I think it's fun to write these but in the end don't expect it to be taken all that serious. Maybe try it out with your friends and see what they say. It shows how hard it is to write a balanced army book and how easily it can be broken without intent, especially when developers claim the write rules to fit fluff/models.

Its not supposed to be "serious". Originally, I just wanted a WoC army that wasn't completely bland. Then I went a bit over the top with the rules, and decided that it looked like fun, so I started writing similar rules for other armies. The rules are purposefully over the top, if anything is too good it certainly isn't without intent. Clearly this isn't everyone's favourite thing, but its what I'm going for.

[Son of Sanguinius]

Leth, would you mind if I pillage some of your ideas for my own project?

[Slashattack]

I've just had a read through your version of the High Elf army book, and to be frank, its pretty bad. You haven't balanced the army book entries well at all.

For example for 25pts should a dragon prince get 3 attacks!!!

Plus you do not tag the 8th edition line of 10 unique magic items per army.

Try to balance your books against the current O&G codex, which is well balanced, or base it alongside the Dark Elf book and increase the points on unit entries as eventually Dark Elves will get a bit of Nerfhammer to.

Slash

[Leth Shyish'phak]

Leth, would you mind if I pillage some of your ideas for my own project? .

Not at all, go for it. Which ideas were you thinking of using?

mindless drivel

Please read my posts before commenting, it won't take long and will help you to avoid making ignorant posts.

[dragonlord22000]

Wow, this looks great!
Maybe the knights could have lances as well
Also I think the axe of Khorne could have Heroic Killing blow instead of just normal killing blow
I love shield of destiny! I can just see my 24 chosen of tzeentch with this spell on! Screw your star dragon!
I think a section for special characters would be good as well