Mantic SciFi Games News and Rumours Roundup

[Triszin The Wrath God]

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a painted unit

[loveless]

I'm trying to figure out how Golem is going to ruin that

Just teasing - it looks good. I'm going to have to look into these a little closer...you know, rules and such. I can't think of anything I'd use them for in 40K since I don't play Guard.

[ogretyrant]

I think if you wanted you could use them either as marines or storm troopers/ veteran/ carapace troopers.

Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk 2

[strewart]

Is it just the photo or does it look like the paint has gone on a little thick on parts of the model? Especially the white areas. I know white is a pain to get coverage, if there is lots of fine details on these guys they may be better off with darker colours.

[imm0rtal reaper]

I hope this is VERY work in progress and the final product looks a lot nicer than this. I say it with nearly every release but I honestly think that Golem ruin all the rank and file models. Their characters are great, and have obviously been paid more to do.

I think mantic should start paying for at least one of every kit to be done to a higher standard. I know it would be impractical for them to pay top price for whole massive armies. But I think at the moment, the golem rank and file paint jobs ruin them.

As I said, hopefully this model will change quite a lot before it's finished but as it stands, that is certainly not something I would pay for.

[GomezAddams]

I think thats the issue here - its not that Golem can't paint to a high level (go look though there website, its clear they can), its that Mantic are stumping up the cash to have them done to that quality.

Then again, you have the flip side. I could paint that rocket trooper up exactly the same without too much difficulty - Maybe Mantic wan't to show achieveable paint jobs?

[imm0rtal reaper]

I think thats the issue here - its not that Golem can't paint to a high level (go look though there website, its clear they can), its that Mantic are stumping up the cash to have them done to that quality.

Then again, you have the flip side. I could paint that rocket trooper up exactly the same without too much difficulty - Maybe Mantic wan't to show achieveable paint jobs?

Wanting to show an achievable paint job is fair enough, but Mantic is a business and want to sell their products. And that paint job is far from what I'd consider worthy of being on a box cover or in press materials.

One of the biggest problems people had, especially in the early days, but it still seems to be knocking around, is the presentation of the miniatures. Every mantic product I've had has look worlds better in the flesh than in the photos. They're photography has gotten better in recent times, but the quality of paint jobs hasn't. Do I want mantic to spend a load of money on paint jobs instead of making toy soldiers? Of course not. But I would like them to try and find a service that would offer a better quality job for a similar price.

If I was a commission service, this model would probably be in the lowest tier of standards I'd offer, and even then I think I'd do a better job, at least where the base is concerned. I think the base looks awful. It doesn't look like it was properly sanded before painting and the paint job on it is awful with very little evidence of drybrushing or detail, just a tiny amount of flick stuck on almost as an afterthought.

Now I KNOW golem have the skills to do better than this. But maybe mantic should find a service who will put more effort it for the same price.


*EDIT:

Again, I know this is a WIP and I sincerely hope that the end product proves me wrong and looks amazing, but I have some serious doubts.

[scarletsquig]

You know, the main reason why that image was included in the newsletter instead of being posted publically on the blog was probably so that people wouldn't bitch about the WIP.

Can we at least wait for the final pic before writing essays about why it sucks?


Also, Gomez is entirely right that it's not a case of Golem being bad, it's just that Mantic pays them for a certain standard of painting. Not Mantic's fault either, they can spend on painting, or they can spend on miniatures, and miniatures are always the priority, over anything else. We could have showcase-standard minis painted up all round, or we could have that new army that Mantic wants to release instead.

Looking at Golem's rates, It's about £4 for infantry standard and £6 for elite infantry standard. Character standard is about £12.50/model.

And those are actually low prices by the standards of most commission painters. You're easily looking at £20-£30 for character standard from a lot of commission painters. Golem are offering an extremely affordable service for what they do, which is probably the main reason why Mantic hire them, their prices make it actually feasible for an entire army of miniatures to be painted up.

Crowdsourcing isn't an option either, Mantic needs the physical miniatures, to take to events, to have ready for photographs.

So, to paint up everything to showcase standard would either double or triple the painting fees.. and when you've got a whole army of 100 miniatures to paint up, that starts to become a serious expense that is getting on for £1200.. which is a good chunk of the way towards paying for the tooling on a new restic kit. Get a few armies painted up and all of a sudden *we don't actually have* this new Enforcer release at all, because all the money was spent on painting old minis instead of making new ones.

It's the same reason why the hardback rulebook is filled with 5-minute rough sketches for most of the filler artwork, they can't afford to spend on art unless it is required (board game tiles) or essential for promotional purposes (box art covers).

Having "one guy per squad" painted to a higher standard is even worse, because then Golem has to make sure that that one model doesn't stick out like a sore thumb.

And finally, it really is the "big armies" thing that makes it impossible to do golden demon standard everywhere - Skirmish games from other companies can do this just fine, since they only every have to paint up one of each mini they sculpt. Mantic has to do at least 10-20 of each.

[imm0rtal reaper]

You know, the main reason why that image was included in the newsletter instead of being posted publically on the blog was probably so that people wouldn't bitch about the WIP.

Can we at least wait for the final pic before writing essays about why it sucks?


Also, Gomez is entirely right that it's not a case of Golem being bad, it's just that Mantic pays them for a certain standard of painting. Not Mantic's fault either, they can spend on painting, or they can spend on miniatures, and miniatures are always the priority, over anything else.

Once the final image is out there's nothing that can be done. Voicing criticism now leaves a VERY small chance that maybe the person who's painting them might see and think "well I guess I could go for an extra highlight here, another layer there" to make the miniatures pop a little more.

I'm not saying it's anyone's fault, but the point I was trying to make is that I'm sure there is a service out there with either lower prices generally so mantic can consider upping the quality level, or a service that paints their "tabletop" standard minis to a higher quality than golem. Especially if doing so they can make themselves the official service for mantic instead of golem. Or maybe, golem, who have painted the majority of mantic's stuff should think "we are getting repeat custom for one of the biggest emerging manufactures in the industry, putting in that little bit of extra effort will help their sales and give us more work, but also serves and a very prominent example of out work to other potential clients."

If I was golem, I'd be thinking it makes sense to take a bit of a "loss" (not charging less, but taking a little more time with the miniatures) to showcase ourselves in such a noticeable way.

If I was a miniature manufacturer, and was looking for a commission service for my rank and file models - based on what I've seen from golem with mantic - I'd probably look elsewhere.

Having "one guy per squad" painted to a higher standard is even worse, because then Golem has to make sure that that one model doesn't stick out like a sore thumb.

I talked to them about their zombies, and they said they were really difficult to paint because the front rank was commissioned to high-quality standard, and the back ranks were commissioned to low quality standard.

I didn't mean one model per squad. I meant instead of doing 100 skeletons for an studio undead army all at tabletop, do 10 of them at a high standard for box covers, pictures and press material.

[scarletsquig]

The one time I met the Golem painters, they looked extremely sleep-deprived and were chugging back a ton of energy drinks.. from what I've heard, this is pretty much "business as usual" for them, so I don't think there's any doubt that they work hard.

Other things that need to be mentioned:

- We're looking at an image which is 6-7x actual size, far too easy to pick out flaws when its blown up on a monitor like that. The original thumbnail in the newsletter looked pretty cool, I wouldn't have known it was a WIP unless it was pointed out to me.

- Golem are based in Nottingham. That has value too. They're available in person, can attend meetings and events and can even pick up the miniatures in person and deliver them instantly.

- It's a good paintjob, the colour scheme works. It isn't bright primary blue or yellow or anything crazy like that, it's a nice high-contrast scheme with a colour accent. Looks good!

[imm0rtal reaper]

The one time I met the Golem painters, they looked extremely sleep-deprived and were chugging back a ton of energy drinks.. from what I've heard, this is pretty much "business as usual" for them, so I don't think there's any doubt that they work hard.

Other things that need to be mentioned:

- We're looking at an image which is 6-7x actual size, far too easy to pick out flaws when its blown up on a monitor like that. The original thumbnail in the newsletter looked pretty cool, I wouldn't have known it was a WIP unless it was pointed out to me.

- Golem are based in Nottingham. That has value too. They're available in person, can attend meetings and events and can even pick up the miniatures in person and deliver them instantly.

- It's a good paintjob, the colour scheme works. It isn't bright primary blue or yellow or anything crazy like that, it's a nice high-contrast scheme with a colour accent. Looks good!

I'm not trying to say the paint job is terrible. It's a good job and if it was on a forum, it's something I'd follow. My points were all based on the fact it's a professional piece and as such needs to be held to a different standard. I agree that the small thumbnail did look good and it's a nice scheme. But the finished version won't be advertised in tiny pictures. They will be blown up 6-7 times and scrutinised, and as a professional paint job the model should easily be able to stand up under such scrutiny. Zoomed out the paint job looks ok (unfinished maybe, but its a WIP, that's fine) but even in a smaller picture, I still think that base looks awful.

[strewart]

I just looked at it properly in the newsletter - looks much better there. A big part of the problem may well be the resolution of the photo upon blowing it up. Check out the smaller shot and compare, maybe when it is finished and they take proper high resolution photos it will look much better. But yes the base certainly needs a little more.

[GomezAddams]

Wanting to show an achievable paint job is fair enough, but Mantic is a business and want to sell their products. And that paint job is far from what I'd consider worthy of being on a box cover or in press materials.

But... you get what you pay for. You only have to look at the work Golems done for McVey and Relic Knights to see that.

One of the biggest problems people had, especially in the early days, but it still seems to be knocking around, is the presentation of the miniatures.

This is not one of the biggest problems people had - at least, not those who weren't buying Mantic miniatures.

Do I want mantic to spend a load of money on paint jobs instead of making toy soldiers? Of course not. But I would like them to try and find a service that would offer a better quality job for a similar price.

But again, your missing the point. You get what you pay for - you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. If Mantic want a well painted set of miniatures they can drag all over the place as well as being used for promo material but don't want to pay a fortune, then Tommie Soules going to hand it over to one of his staff and supervise. If they pay top dollar, then he'll do it.

If I was a commission service, this model would probably be in the lowest tier of standards I'd offer, and even then I think I'd do a better job, at least where the base is concerned.

And you'd be out of buisness fairly quickly. I'm not trying to be awful or antagonistic here (so please, don't take anything personally )but its very easy to look at a paint job and say its bad without questioning anything around it - Golem do have the talent to pull off stunning paint jobs so lets rule out talent. That leaves time and money. Mantic always seem to be working to a very tight time frame, and Mantic might not be paying top draw. Is it a bad thing? Well no, now that Mantics making stunning figures rather then average ones, people like Dwartist will pick them up and Mantic will get those top draw paint jobs for free.

I'm actually surprised they haven't done anything with WAMP yet in that regard...


Scarletsquig - as far as I am aware, Golem aren't based in Nottingham, there based in the centre of Manchester about ten minutes from the train station. Tommie is a fellow Mancunian and there situated above Fanboy 3 (He used to work there after leaving Games Workshop Manchester) - some of the studio paint jobs are in the window.

[imm0rtal reaper]

But... you get what you pay for. You only have to look at the work Golems done for McVey and Relic Knights to see that.

And you'd be out of buisness fairly quickly. I'm not trying to be awful or antagonistic here (so please, don't take anything personally )but its very easy to look at a paint job and say its bad without questioning anything around it - Golem do have the talent to pull off stunning paint jobs so lets rule out talent. That leaves time and money. Mantic always seem to be working to a very tight time frame, and Mantic might not be paying top draw. Is it a bad thing? Well no, now that Mantics making stunning figures rather then average ones, people like Dwartist will pick them up and Mantic will get those top draw paint jobs for free.

I'm well aware you get what you pay for. The point I'm trying to make is that Golem are a professional miniature painting service but I don't think a lot of their mantic rank and file look professional at all.

I'm not saying it's anyone's fault. Both parties need to make money to stay afloat, I just don't think Golem's tabletop paint jobs are that good.

That said, I am surprised that mantic haven't reached out to the community to get a high quality painter for free. If they did a competition where the winner would get to paint up their enforcer army, I think a lot of people would take part. The winner get's to have "painted the mantic enforcer army" on their portfolio which is payment enough, especially if they don't have a commission service of their own or aren't as well connected as the bigger players. Plus mantic gets a high quality paint job for free.

I think all companies that aren't GW or PP should reach out to the fans for free art, paint jobs and the like. It makes the community feel involved and keeps their costs down.

[GomezAddams]

I think all companies that aren't GW or PP should reach out to the fans for free art, paint jobs and the like. It makes the community feel involved and keeps their costs down.

But... no.

I understand what your saying, but how would you organise such a competition without sending out stacks of enforcers for free (something according to UK competition rules according to my old boss, I don't understand it either). And then what do you do if the jobs aren't up to scratch? Theres so many variables and what ifs with this its not even funny. So what should Mantic do?

Hire a full time painter.

Hire someone whose already known, let them take on there own commissions within Mantics premises, but have them paint small armies to sell via the website as well as the official studio jobs. That way rather then getting one paint job from Golem that someone around here has to fiddle with in photoshop, the painter could just be let loose on a few figures and the community decides on the overall scheme.

[imm0rtal reaper]

But... no.

I understand what your saying, but how would you organise such a competition without sending out stacks of enforcers for free (something according to UK competition rules according to my old boss, I don't understand it either). And then what do you do if the jobs aren't up to scratch? Theres so many variables and what ifs with this its not even funny. So what should Mantic do?

Hire a full time painter.

Hire someone whose already known, let them take on there own commissions within Mantics premises, but have them paint small armies to sell via the website as well as the official studio jobs. That way rather then getting one paint job from Golem that someone around here has to fiddle with in photoshop, the painter could just be let loose on a few figures and the community decides on the overall scheme.

In my hypothetical people would send in other painted mantic minis, mantic would narrow it to say three potentials, who each gets four or five enforces and a description of the scheme, winner takes all.

I think the overarching point I'm striving towards is that mantic isn't a small time company in the eyes of the public any more. Almost everyone knows about them and they are getting bigger and bigger. I think its time for them to seriously consider upping the presentation of their minis [paint job wise] to match the higher standards of sculpts they have now.

[Hellebore]

If you blew up almost any model to that size, it's paint job wouldn't look as good either. No one paints models to that scale of perfection.

Hellebore

[Max Jet]

If you blew up almost any model to that size, it's paint job wouldn't look as good either. No one paints models to that scale of perfection.

Hellebore

While not actually true, the people being able to do this have left humanity behind them a long time ago.

[imm0rtal reaper]

If you blew up almost any model to that size, it's paint job wouldn't look as good either. No one paints models to that scale of perfection.

Hellebore

An hour on cool mini or not and you'll find hundreds of minis that withstand close zooming. Of course, you'll also find thousands that look *****, even when zoomed out. . .

[GomezAddams]

Like I've said, Golem are capable, they either aren't being paid enough or aren't being given enough time - either way, the fault doesn't lie with Golem and its pretty bizarre to think it does.