Mantic SciFi Games News and Rumours Roundup

[Gazak Blacktoof]

I see what you're saying. Used correctly or not, Skaven is just the term Bob was using for rat-men.

[redben]

There's a little more to it than that. If Mantic are just doing ratmen then they don't need to have a steampunk aesthetic. If they're intending the models to be aslo used as Skaven (which they may or may not be) then they do need a steampunk aesthetic. The two terms aren't interchangeable and shouldn't be used as such.

[BobtheInquisitor]

You're right. I meant "ratmen" but wrote "skaven". I apologize for the confusion.

However, you did make my point for me. If you compare Mantic dwarfs to GW dwarfs, you'll see that they have a very different aesthetic, and that's why I love them. Mantic dwarfs have no runes, ancestor badges, helmet horns or chainmail skirts, but they do have shoulder pads and knees. Mantic dwarfs may carry the same weapons as GW dwarfs, but the design is very unique. You can identify a Mantic dwarf's hammer very easily, no matter what model it's on.

The same is true for Mantic's elves, orcs and undead. They are very distinctive. In fact, I think one of the main reasons cited for the success of Mantic's undead (besides the bulk discount) is that Mantic ghouls and zombies don't look like GW ghouls and zombies. So, why are Mantic's Veer-myn so similar in appearance to Skaven that they could be part of the same product line?

I was hoping that Mantic would work it's magic once again and come up with another winning design. Based on the two models we've seen, that doesn't seem as likely, but it could still happen.

(It strikes me as odd that even Scibor's ratmen look less like Skaven than Mantic's, and Scibor comes as close to trademark infringement imagery stealing as a company can without naming itself "Gamer's Workshop". Seriously, check out their not-primarchs and not-Emperor models.)

[imm0rtal reaper]

You're right. I meant "ratmen" but wrote "skaven". I apologize for the confusion.

However, you did make my point for me. If you compare Mantic dwarfs to GW dwarfs, you'll see that they have a very different aesthetic, and that's why I love them. Mantic dwarfs have no runes, ancestor badges, helmet horns or chainmail skirts, but they do have shoulder pads and knees. Mantic dwarfs may carry the same weapons as GW dwarfs, but the design is very unique. You can identify a Mantic dwarf's hammer very easily, no matter what model it's on.

The same is true for Mantic's elves, orcs and undead. They are very distinctive. In fact, I think one of the main reasons cited for the success of Mantic's undead (besides the bulk discount) is that Mantic ghouls and zombies don't look like GW ghouls and zombies. So, why are Mantic's Veer-myn so similar in appearance to Skaven that they could be part of the same product line?

I was hoping that Mantic would work it's magic once again and come up with another winning design. Based on the two models we've seen, that doesn't seem as likely, but it could still happen.

(It strikes me as odd that even Scibor's ratmen look less like Skaven than Mantic's, and Scibor comes as close to trademark infringement imagery stealing as a company can without naming itself "Gamer's Workshop". Seriously, check out their not-primarchs and not-Emperor models.)

You just made me think of something. I don't think I've ever heard a bad word spoken about scibor, or any 3rd party model company (other than chapterhouse of course) for how they are clearly making products to be used in GW games. 90% of these companies don't have their own ruleset either.

So why is it that mantic gets SO much flak for their models. Yes, they're compatible/comparable to a lot of GW stuff, but so is the majority of the miniatures in our hobby (the fantasy/sci fi side, not historicals)
At least mantic made a ruleset for their games.

This isn't in response to your post bob, it just made me wonder :S

Thinking about it now, I don't understand where all the hate comes from. . .

[GomezAddams]

I think its because theres no attempt to mask it - Scibor is clearly making space marines and Custodies, Chapterhouse make autrachs etc. Mantic has made a point of saying we make a different product.

Mantics getting a harder time because its claiming to do things differently and being unique and yet... the first thing people were saying about the sculpt isn't how stylish they are or how well sculpted they are, but that they were Skaven. Shame really.

I also don't think the whole rules set thing is really a defence.

[imm0rtal reaper]

I think its because theres no attempt to mask it - Scibor is clearly making space marines and Custodies, Chapterhouse make autrachs etc. Mantic has made a point of saying we make a different product.

Mantics getting a harder time because its claiming to do things differently and being unique and yet... the first thing people were saying about the sculpt isn't how stylish they are or how well sculpted they are, but that they were Skaven. Shame really.

I also don't think the whole rules set thing is really a defence.

I think the rules make a massive difference. Mantic models are accompanied by a ruleset to play games with, and background to go with them (albeit not a lot at the minute)

I think that makes them a lot more "unique" (as much as one can be when dealing with fantasy/sci fi standard races and not going all out with something totally new) than a "sci fi roman knight" who looks very similar to a custodian. But scibor (who have become my target in this discussion, but they aren't the only onces lol) never seem to get the criticism.


*EDIT, literally seconds after pressing the post button, I got the scibor newsletter in my inbox. Creepy.

[BobtheInquisitor]

I happen to like both Scibor and Mantic. My main complaint was for a lost opportunity on Mantic's behalf, because I've come to expect something unique from Mantic's releases. Also, GW's Skaven range happens to be one of their best and most affordable, which makes it one of the least profitable to imitate.

[Autumn Leaves]

I think the rules make a massive difference. Mantic models are accompanied by a ruleset to play games with, and background to go with them (albeit not a lot at the minute)

I think that makes them a lot more "unique" (as much as one can be when dealing with fantasy/sci fi standard races and not going all out with something totally new) rather than a "sci fi roman knight" who looks very similar to a custodian. But scibor (who have become my target in this discussion, aren't the only ones, lol) never seem to get the criticism.

I agree.
Rats have never made it into space or sci-fi under GW's umbrella, this is a bit of a first for a bigger manufacturer and a welcome introduction.
Secondly, there is no negative about people saying hey, it looks like Skaven in space. Especially as it appears so many people are interested and keen on the idea.
It just means that GW missed the boat for all these years by not getting rats into 40K when they had the chance.
Any doubts or misgivings they had are about to be exploded because being the first bigger miniature outfit to get rats into space in a serious way, Mantic have stolen quite a coup.
It certainly helps that the sculpts look pretty darn good. Very cool.
Those with GW skaven armies who also play 40K may well be sorely tempted to buy into a range of space rats. I know I am one of those.
I adore my massive GW skaven army spanning several editions of warhammer, but that joy of all things ratty only whets my appetite at the prospect of being able to field them in a sci-fi table top format.
I can see myself house ruling stats for the Veer-Myn to be involved in space hulk games as well.
I'm only seeing a win-win because if anyone says 'hey, Skaven in space', well thats just a bonus because the chances are they will like the look of these models, or at the least, head back to GW forums and spread the word that Mantic are doing rats in space, which is in some ways even better publicity.
More races in space, means more flavour for the sci-fi/space gamers, what with the Forge fathers on board bring Dwarves back into space its good news all round.

[Tonny]

I thought Scibor did get a lot of 'flak' on forum/sites as coolminiornot?

Anyway about mantic ratsmen, we surely need to the see the basic troops and options before saying it's good or bad, I do like the previewed mini's, but compared to the Corp they are not on the same lvl even with both races are done by the same sculptor.

With more and more Corp pics available, I am really amazed about how good the corp mini's are.

Edit: @Autumn Leaves, but they don't look as rats in space. They look as Skaven from the Skyre Clan. Not rats in space, that's the problem.

[Autumn Leaves]

Tonny, thats a subjective issue that may not be shared by others and I for one am much more 'sparked up' by the ability to buy space rats than I am for Corporation models.
Bottom line is, the more flavours that come out from Mantic the better for everyone because we all end up with something that we like or prefer to collect, paint and game with at our pleasure ;-)

[GomezAddams]

Ah but reaper, what came first - rule book or models? Didn't the rulebook come out of people asking repeatedly for a game to play with the models?

Autumn leaves, go back a few pages and look at the bit where the majority of posters noticed the similarities. Now fair enough skaven have changed over editions but the intent and influence is pretty obvious when comparing the current lines and styles with

As for why GW has never done rats in space, maybe its because of what were seeing here. They probably knew the similarities would have been too close and that unless they teched them up (e.g. Tau-ish) they wouldn't fly. The hrud sketch from the 3rd ed rulebook is a nod towards a possibilty but it was never followed through on, probably because of negative reaction to it as a space skaven.

All this has however, made me look at the current GW skaven and I never realised how good some of those models are. Ikit Claw and warlord spinetail look lovely to paint, skweel gnawtooth and that warp grinder team - no use for any of it, but whens that ever stopped anyone

[imm0rtal reaper]

Ah but reaper, what came first - rule book or models? Didn't the rulebook come out of people asking repeatedly for a game to play with the models?

As for why GW has never done rats in space, maybe its because of what were seeing here. They probably knew the similarities would have been too close and that unless they teched them up (e.g. Tau-ish) they wouldn't fly. The hrud sketch from the 3rd ed rulebook is a nod towards a possibilty but it was never followed through on, probably because of negative reaction to it as a space skaven.

Yes the rulebook came second. Back then, mantic were an alternate miniatures company, GW proxies. They're still that, but as time goes on they are moving away from that, with their own rules. Their own universe (although I'd like that to arrive sooner rather than later lol) and *hopefully* their own ranges. As far as I remember, mantic have 2 "unique" fantasy races to release when the new K.o.W rules come out. And hopefully they'll do something at least a little unique with the zzo'r and plague.

And as for GW having a fantasy race and Sci Fi range that's too close. It works for orks and orcs. Yeah orks have guns and vehichles, but that are few parts on the standard kit that can't be used in fantasy and vice versa.

[redben]

I think Mantic get a bit more flak because they put themselves out there a bit more and because they're attempting to release full armies rather than bits and pieces.

Regardless of what we think, sales will show whether people want this. If they can't be used as Skaven then this is a bit of risk from Mantic. Whilst Squats have long been written out of 40K they were once there and there are people who want them back. Plus Mantic could retool the Dwarves for them. I'm assuming the Veer-myn will be restic so there won't be a lot of production costs to recoup. Of course, there's always the extremely small possibility that Mantic have got wind that 6th ed 40K will see a space Skaven race and are stealing a march lol. More likely they're hoping that they'll appeal to people like Autumn Leaves who like Skaven and like the idea of sci-fi versions.

[Pacific]

I thought the same thing actually, and still maintain that the Forge Fathers have jumped the gun on a GW Demiurg release. There is actually quite a small community of games developers stationed around Nottingham, and with at least 3 (that I have counted) ex-GW employees at Mantic, I wouldn't be surprised at all a lot of them were still mates with each other.

GW plans releases of stuff sometimes years in advance - it wouldn't surprise me at all if these kinds of things are on the drawing board, and Ronnie et al got wind of them.

[mattjgilbert]

I had the corporation models in my hands this weekend. In terms of scale I put them up against my undead and they are the same height as a skeleton.

Really nice models - I'm glad I went for the Elite deal.

Got to play Pandora too - can't wait to get that now.

And I know what's coming after the Eighth race for warpath... and for warpath in general

[mattjgilbert]

Oh I forgot... the when I had a look at the Corporation troops they definitely have larger jackboots and not turn-ups. This was confirmed when I asked with a "yes, they were painted wrong".

[lbecks]

Ah but reaper, what came first - rule book or models? Didn't the rulebook come out of people asking repeatedly for a game to play with the models?

Autumn leaves, go back a few pages and look at the bit where the majority of posters noticed the similarities. Now fair enough skaven have changed over editions but the intent and influence is pretty obvious when comparing the current lines and styles with

As for why GW has never done rats in space, maybe its because of what were seeing here. They probably knew the similarities would have been too close and that unless they teched them up (e.g. Tau-ish) they wouldn't fly. The hrud sketch from the 3rd ed rulebook is a nod towards a possibilty but it was never followed through on, probably because of negative reaction to it as a space skaven.

All this has however, made me look at the current GW skaven and I never realised how good some of those models are. Ikit Claw and warlord spinetail look lovely to paint, skweel gnawtooth and that warp grinder team - no use for any of it, but whens that ever stopped anyone

The new skaven faces are excellent! Mantic seem to be going the path GW didn't ended up diverging from which is "Fantasy in space." Their first release of Space Dwarves pretty much said "You want Squats, GW won't give you Squats, we'll give you squats!" GW stopped at Chaos, Orkas, and Elves. Now Mantic is saying "GW want to change Hrud, we'll give you the original Hrud!"

Does anyone know in the Corporation's fiction if there are strange jabs at GW's own workings and policies? I'd find that humorous. There's supposed to be a rebel faction which could be a game stand-in for Mantic itself.

[AlexHolker]

You just made me think of something. I don't think I've ever heard a bad word spoken about scibor, or any 3rd party model company (other than chapterhouse of course) for how they are clearly making products to be used in GW games. 90% of these companies don't have their own ruleset either.

So why is it that mantic gets SO much flak for their models. Yes, they're compatible/comparable to a lot of GW stuff, but so is the majority of the miniatures in our hobby (the fantasy/sci fi side, not historicals)

Because the other 3rd party model companies don't have a plastic line to squander. Metal or resin manufacturers are a dime a dozen, so if one or two or ten choose to focus on the same armies GW does, it's no real loss. Mantic could be making new model lines that provide something new while still being fully compatible with GW's rules and armies (I've provided countless examples in the past). But they won't, because they're too busy following in GW's rut.

[redben]

Rut/consumer base, potato/potato

[AlexHolker]

Rut/consumer base, potato/potato

Are you incapable of reading more than one word? I just explained that they could make armies that still appeal to GW's consumer base without being so empty of innovation.