Debating the Decline of Games Workshop

[Theodred]

That said, is this is a case of the Cure being worse than the Disease? Or not part of the problem?

So, by having a global blanket attitude, positive to the 8 - 18s and negative to the 18+, I think it's possible that that's one factor in their decline. What works in the GW brand stores won't work everywhere. Again, what do you folks think?

I find a lot of economics to be a like a lot of law. Most of it is very clever and important people sitting around in offices, trawling through regulations and interest rates and whatnot, and being very pleased with themselves.

But the real deal happens out on the street, and in my mind. Behavioural science has much more to tell us about economics than any actual economics degree ever will.

And so I wonder, why did GW raise their prices, and aim at kids? Because they sought more money.

And why did they seek more money? Because people weren't spending as much.

And why weren't they spending as much? Because GW was, and continues foolishly selling their own product to other companies, who in turn were selling it at discounted prices! GW was, and still is, funding their own competition.

Question on competition is, I think: big problem, or little problem?

So yes, competition is a big problem. I'd go so far as to say it's the ONLY problem GW has.

Now, it's such a simple and obvious problem that I'm certain GW noticed it. As soon as the end customer was able to make a decent saving on GW products by buying from discount retailers, either online or not, they started to shun the GW stores. GW was, at this point, faced with a choice: to abandon their own stores, or abandon their independant retailers. They chose... poorly.

It's a hard choice to make, and either one will be unpopular. To stop providing stock to independant stores, or to close hundreds of your own stores. So GW put it off. And to correct the problem they targeted people who wouldn't yet be savvy enough to buy online: kids. And they put the prices up. A natural result of this was the alienation of the veteran customers. GW also put a stop to retailers selling their product online unless they also posessed an actual brick and mortar shop.

Every unpopular business decision GW has made has been as a result of other people being able to sell their own stock cheaper than GW do.

The solution is very simple, from my own point of view, and should have been taken years ago...

They need to close their retail outlets.

This instantly frees them from competing with their stockists, and would give them an opportunity to start encouraging customers to buy from them, rather than punishing them for simply doing what they do, which is buy from the cheapest source.

GW could then run teams of sales representatives who could travel from store to store, running intro days with discounts, giveaways, helping independant stockists with displays, demo tables, etc, still encouraging the hobby (which would no longer be such a hard sell since the product could be priced to a more reasonable bracket) at a much lower cost than maintaining so many staff and stores, not to mention the distribution and other ancilliary costs!

But I think the cost involved with restructing the company like this would look bad to shareholders too blind to see past the next quarterly report, and as such will be put off until it's too late, and the company is bought and sold by someone else, putting an end to the awesome models and games that I love.

[Shamutanti]

From personal experience I think that the major issue they are having is entry into the hobby. It is a huge investment for anyone who isn't quite wealthy, particularly when you are paying for a child, or even entering the hobby with a child (even more expensive)

Any hobby of a similar scale/type requires a similar amount of investment.

Being asked to drop £100 down isn't mind boggling and frankly the fact you get a 'test run' of said hobby first before you even engage with with your own cold hard cash, is a bit of a special one. And I'm not just talking the intro game and paint. I've known kids attend a beginners class for 4 weeks before trying - that's like 8 hours worth of gaming and painting before a parent has decided to put down the money.

As a 40k fan I talk to a lot of people about the hobby, and 99% of the responses I get are "too exp" or "I tried it, too exp".
How do you expect to ever draw people in and greatly increase customer numbers when even people who don't know what GWS, Warhammer or 40k is, all seem to know its hideously expensive?????

This depends upon the group you socialise with. My group? We're pretty pro-GW. There's little negative talk (mainly because we don't see the point in whining) and it's never really about the money side of things. But then we fit the ideal market, both from (originally) the kid point of view and the 'vet' point of view. Middle class, well to do, employed people with kids that we can support and spare cash that we can invest into luxuries, e.g. hobbies.

GWS also apparently think providing a form of day care, and a detailed "good" product is the only thing they need to provide to succeed.
Actual marketing and PR seems to be totally alien to them.
They should take a leaf out of Apples book.

First of all, Apple has put themselves as a trendy brand. Warhammer could never do that - it has a stigma that is unpassable.
Secondly, any form of advertisement that I've known GW done has been pretty unsuccessful (The Warhammer online launch linked to stores was a big example) and I've known Indepedents try to advertise their stuff, on bill boards, cinema adverts, etc. and get no real returning investment from it.

Personalised invites down that focus upon giving you a workshop that feels friendly, caring and focused upon your needs is what the company line tries to deliver and as a hobbyist, I can't find myself complaining too much about that. For kids its the same sort of thing, but we, as adults, tend to look down upon it as child care and what not because it makes us feel bigger. Fact is; if your local GW is being used as a child case centre, it's not GWs fault, its the manager running it (and there's been quite a few bad 'uns about that I've met!)

I mean I find it strange that GWS say sales are falling, and yet many armies that obviously won't be updated properly soon but need a major rules overhaul are just ignored??? Surely with a rules update bringing the army up to par with current releases, either with a PDF (purchasable/free?) or as a new codex release it would breath life into many of the older armies creating a major sales boost.

I don't understand how that would increase sales. Rules don't drive sales, at least not the majority of them. More people in social and hobby groups I've met in my wandering time across the U.K. enjoy the things that inspire and captivate them. The smaller minority (who typically are the 'type' who are more vocal in a negative fashion, such as those that inhabit GW General Discussion) are driven by that side of the system. You wouldn't believe the amount of players I know who do not know how to play, but don't care. Who never even knew FAQs and Erratas exist. Some of which used things based off novels and books and NOT codexes. House rules, personalised changes, things they just think are better. Not because they're competitive, but just how they see it.

Good looking armies, decent working materials and tools and healthy support and enthusiasm to encourage that are what drive sales.

This is why shop numbers have been decreased, staffing has been decreased and shop locations changed to cheaper areas. Maximise ROI, Return on Investment.

This may sound harsh, but of the last chunk of redunancies, (around the same time when the Retail Standards were introduced) alot of awful staff were lost. I know entire stores that were gutted and some truely bad eggs were removed. The cull cost the company alot of experience, but it was with experienced managers who had lost their way (although a few good ones left upon their own accord, which was sad for me, as they were often stores I would visit when around the country). But overall? The cuts were a good thing for any hobbyist who wanted to discuss and improve their hobby.

Once the child gets older most will probably stop playing once the parents stop paying. (all the kids who 'once played' but found it too expensive when they had to buy their own stuff).
This is rediculous as the shops have limited space, end up with no long term (talking about 5-10 years here) retention of customers (due to pricing) and still can only really appeal to people wealthy enough.

The typical model is kids come in at around age 12. Year 7s basically in theUK and they stay for 2-3 years. They then discover girls. And exams. And things get hectic and they leave. Around the age of 21-23, a percentage of that base returns, now with student loans, new jobs or otherwise and they get re entered into the hobby. A good store will have a healthy mix of both returners and youngsters (with some odd balls thrown in and the one guy whose ALWAYS in and ALWAYS unemployed!) Bad stores are those run and dominated by veterans. They suck the fun and life out of both staff and store (and normally each other), which is why they asked to go to clubs and be horrible to each other in the presence of no one else.

With the climate changing that model won't be as effective maybe, but I wouldn't want to put my money on thinking that vets would turn things around or even really appreciate the support (and thus spend more cash). This ingrained hatred of all things GW has been going on for years (and no doubt will continue) and thus it seems a worthless effort to carry on.

Vets aren't concerned with the shops. They are concerned with the price, models, armies, rules, and availability of areas to game. GWS have totally turned their backs on this group in order to pursue a tiny target audience, and want to know why their business is stagnant...

If you think kids are a tiny target audience in comparison to the vets, you're barking up the wrong tree.

There is a really good reason the competition is gaining so much ground. They aren't stupid and they know what GWS is doing wrong, what its doing right, and how to make sure they do it better.

The competition is more visible now, that is for sure. We have the internet to thank for that. And to point maybe it is gaining ground.. Certainly more people upon places like this know of it. But is it -really- getting any space in the actual market - in the US possibly. Maybe in Australia. But the UK? Europe? Oodles of people barely know things about GW (and many are hobbyists!), let alone Maelstrom or otherwise. Other gaming systems? No real mention, no link. Sure clubs know of them and games of them get played, but that's, in my experience, only non-reg'd clubs (ex-GCN typically also) really have a following.

You know what I see when I go into Maelstrom. Old beardy players who bark about the good old days. Games Workshop? Real chirpy cheery fellows who shake my hand and ask me what my hobby is about! And that's why competition will never really grow or compete with GW, because rules, frankly, don't mean much to the majority. Some models from other companies may look better, but not the majority. Entire ranges of models in GW dwarf some companies and if 5% of the gaming group like that aestetic or look you ain't grabbing them. The offer of styles, looks and designs are too much. The imagery supplied by the books, the websites, the staff - that's alot to deal with.

I think it's awesome that other people and other companies have a piece of the market. I quite enjoy Malifuex, love Infinity and find Warmachine amusing to paint, but I wouldn't give GW for it, not one blink. And of the TINY minority I know who do both, GW will always be there to welcome them back and guide them back onto the path of positivity. That is why you won't see GW dying any time soon and the decline of things is not down to the company, but down to the staff at the fore front, because they haven't been engaging in the way being asked of them (and thus why redundancies were smacked down!)

And I should point on, on a small side note: Many people cut their teeth in GW and they go away with experience and knowledge and become better as their jobs than they were in GW. I bet many of them thank the company for that. But what Games Workshop did give them, probably most importantly of all, was an understanding of the market. And those people don't exploit the mistakes or pick on the flaws of GW, they just know where the company is going and WHY it is going in that way and thus focus themselves into areas they know they too can make a profit and sit along side a god.

[Anarnaxe]

After the last few days, I firmly believe that Games Workshop mission statement consists of the guys in charge sticking their fingers in their ears, shutting their eyes and going "lalalalalalalalalalala" for several minutes whenever someone tries to tell them that profits are down.



So, errr, put me down for attitude.

[DeviLution]

@Angelofsorrow & Slashattack: Uh, guys, that's not what this is about. I'm not a vet lashing out at GW. I'm a seriously concerned long-time GW hobbyist trying to encourage a debate on the decline of GW sales.

@ Korraz & yabbadabba: That's one solution I see. And yes, it would take brass balls to do. Hence why I don't see them closing the GW Stores.

I'll take that as two votes for Attitude.

Well...

There are two steps to a successive business (of any kind)
1. Get customers
2. Keep customers

Currently, GW ain't really very good at either.

I agree. Vote for Cure and Rat Race, I assume.

@ Ianrak: A great deal of good points you have there, some of which I'd not thought about or been aware of. I agree with you, and as far as the recent statement by Wells, and the leadership of Kirby, I could not agree more. I'll put you down for Attitude and Cure.

@ arkle: Yes, that makes sense. You seem to be echoing what yabbadabba said in the post I quoted.

Ie, GW feels that - based solely on the GW Stores - Veterans are a difficult lot to deal with, predict, or convince to buy. Part of this problem is that the 12 to 18 crowd is extremely predictable, less market savvy, and - sorry to say - gullible. So, Kirby and Co prefer to keep selling to Consumer A, as you said, and if that shafts consumer B, GW just tells them "if you want to leave, there's the door - now get the eff out." NOT a good way to treat roughly half of your customer base, particulalry after the time and money they've put in. If I'm wrong on that being what you meant, let me know.

I'll mark you down as Attitude.

@ FarseerBeilTan: It's not a lie, and they've been dropping for some time now. While I don't know what year they started to decline, I would bet money the decline predates the global recession by a factor of years.

Tally so far: Attitude 5, Cure 2, Rat Race 2

By the way, this thread is research for a paper, if any of you are interested in my motives, here. I'm not sure if I'll use this for some of my work in college, but I do like to have options and plan ahead. Also, being a subject close to my heart, I'm interested in in what others are thinking at this time. So, kind of a blend of personal and educational interest is behind the "what and why" I'm asking this question and taking votes.

~DeviLution

Edit: Got your post Anarnaxe. Also included Theodred's view as a vote for Rat Race, see below.

[DeviLution]

Sorry for the double post - this was important enough to me that I felt it better off to have seperate from my previous comment.

I find a lot of economics to be a like a lot of law. Most of it is very clever and important people sitting around in offices, trawling through regulations and interest rates and whatnot, and being very pleased with themselves.

But the real deal happens out on the street, and in my mind. Behavioural science has much more to tell us about economics than any actual economics degree ever will.

And so I wonder, why did GW raise their prices, and aim at kids? Because they sought more money.

And why did they seek more money? Because people weren't spending as much.

And why weren't they spending as much? Because GW was, and continues foolishly selling their own product to other companies, who in turn were selling it at discounted prices! GW was, and still is, funding their own competition.

So yes, competition is a big problem. I'd go so far as to say it's the ONLY problem GW has.

Now, it's such a simple and obvious problem that I'm certain GW noticed it. As soon as the end customer was able to make a decent saving on GW products by buying from discount retailers, either online or not, they started to shun the GW stores. GW was, at this point, faced with a choice: to abandon their own stores, or abandon their independant retailers. They chose... poorly.

It's a hard choice to make, and either one will be unpopular. To stop providing stock to independant stores, or to close hundreds of your own stores. So GW put it off. And to correct the problem they targeted people who wouldn't yet be savvy enough to buy online: kids. And they put the prices up. A natural result of this was the alienation of the veteran customers. GW also put a stop to retailers selling their product online unless they also posessed an actual brick and mortar shop.

Every unpopular business decision GW has made has been as a result of other people being able to sell their own stock cheaper than GW do.

The solution is very simple, from my own point of view, and should have been taken years ago...

They need to close their retail outlets.

This instantly frees them from competing with their stockists, and would give them an opportunity to start encouraging customers to buy from them, rather than punishing them for simply doing what they do, which is buy from the cheapest source.

GW could then run teams of sales representatives who could travel from store to store, running intro days with discounts, giveaways, helping independant stockists with displays, demo tables, etc, still encouraging the hobby (which would no longer be such a hard sell since the product could be priced to a more reasonable bracket) at a much lower cost than maintaining so many staff and stores, not to mention the distribution and other ancilliary costs!

But I think the cost involved with restructing the company like this would look bad to shareholders too blind to see past the next quarterly report, and as such will be put off until it's too late, and the company is bought and sold by someone else, putting an end to the awesome models and games that I love.

I think you've managed to clarify something I wasn't able to explain, before, ie, that GW was competing with themselves.

You've managed to melt several points into clarity for me:
>The feeling that the GW Brand stores needed to go.
>The feeling that GW was competing with themselves.
>The knowledge that by screwing over independents they screw themselves.
>The feeling that the GW stores were problematic specifically in comparison to other miniature companies who, of course, don't possess a retail chain.

Simply put, that post was a eureka moment for me. Others had alluded to it here, earlier, but the simple fact I see, is that they are trying to be both a retailer and a manufacturer simultaneously. That, it seems to me, makes it a lot simpler problem to look at. They need to pick one, and of course that has to be manufacturing. So, yes, those GW Stores have got to go.

Quite possible none of the three reasons I came up with were the biggest reason for the decline of GW. They're trying to straddle being two things at once that are somewhat mutually exclusive. I'll have to think on it but I think that may be the best answer yet as far as the cause of decline...

~DeviLution

Edit: Actually, that could be classified as a Rat Race vote, ie Competition. I'll mark it as such. And it's a stronger view of what competition really means for GW. As I've felt for a long time, they are their own worst enemy.

[yabbadabba]

They are putting out the fire.....with gasoline.

Technically ......

@DevilLution - the argument about dropping the retail stores is a solution but not one that is a guarantee of working. A lot of people who advocate it are veteran gamers with local FLGSs, or ones who want their discount so they can play in clubs and tournaments. It doesn't take into account how you replace the lost sales (not profit), nor how you replace all those kids you lose as a recruitment base, let alone the ones who hang on past the 18 - 24 month average attendance. There is a solution but as GW is now targetting a very defined market, to drop the retail business would mean a massive downscale in the company - possibly good for the veteran customers but guaranteed to be harmful elsewhere.

It is a thorny quandary..

[DeviLution]

Technically ......

@DevilLution - the argument about dropping the retail stores is a solution but not one that is a guarantee of working. A lot of people who advocate it are veteran gamers with local FLGSs, or ones who want their discount so they can play in clubs and tournaments. It doesn't take into account how you replace the lost sales (not profit), nor how you replace all those kids you lose as a recruitment base, let alone the ones who hang on past the 18 - 24 month average attendance. There is a solution but as GW is now targetting a very defined market, to drop the retail business would mean a massive downscale in the company - possibly good for the veteran customers but guaranteed to be harmful elsewhere.

It is a thorny quandary..

Indeed, as T'ilq qould say.

In all seriousness, though. I was considering this the other night (the usual brainstorm session that occurs between going to bed and going to sleep ) and what I came up with was a bit of a compromise.

Simply put, cut the GW Stores loose, but do not close them.

With me so far? Here's what I would do in detail. Turn them into a spinoff company that is responsible for itself, and is, for all intents and purposes, a chain of independant stockists who can bear the name of the flagship. Give them twelve to twenty-four months warning before the money stops coming from GW HQ so that they have a reasonable amount of time to aquaint themselves with making their own money.

In short, tell them to sink or swim, but help them to swim for a time. GW loses the baggage of having a retail chain of their own, but the stores are given a chance to be bought off of GW and / or survive on their own. It gives the populations of those stores, of all ages, a chance at keeping that store, while GW can drop the maquerade of being a retailer, and hand that to a company that would be able to concentrate solely on that problem. In effect, a possible win-win scenario.

While this is a harsh idea, in this scenario the stores are at least given a chance at survival. They can also do and be whatever they want, a situation that would benefit many of them, if not all of them.

And, yes, of course, it's still not a gaurantee to work... but the current paradigm has never worked. They need to change, and not just change for the sake of change (eyes the White House) but change for the better.

Thoughts?

[yabbadabba]

Actually the current paradigm did work, but the question is whether its current format is fit for purpose and in that we have to factor in what GW's business strategy is. I am willing to bet I am nought more than a footnote in that.

However what you are talking about is, in essence, a franchise or a gift to the world of a load more LGSs. The problem with both of those is how GW decides to look at the stores. As franchises then clearly in some places they will go bust and quickly. As Indies GW will rapidly lose control over them.

The stores are a part of the problem, but they are a part of the solution and a reflection of the whole. The only way we could ever really know is to see Well's plans in detail.

[DeviLution]

The stores are a part of the problem, but they are a part of the solution and a reflection of the whole. The only way we could ever really know is to see Well's plans in detail.

I agree with you overall, but this part that I quoted is key. I fully admit not being party to the whole picture, only the part that I can see and what I can infer from that, which likely isn't even half the whole.

As for cutting them loose, yes, some would fail and yes, GW would lose control of them - but that's what I feel is needed. I begin to see that the rise in PP and other mini-game-makers may have a great deal to do with them NOT having a retail chain to worry about. I think that letting them go may be a solution.

But, here again, I'm not in possession of all the facts. If I were, I wonder if I would be doing what Wells & Kirby have been doing. I very strongly doubt that I would, though.

~DeviLution

[Night Bearer]

Regarding retail, has anyone studied exactly how many new gamers retail stores themselves bring in?

Being an American who's never lived in a city with a GW Retail store, I've heard stories about how ubiquitous GW stores are in England, and how GW stores in general are often used as daycares. All of the indie stores I've been a regular at over the years have mostly been in somewhat, well, "humble" areas and certainly not prone to much walk-by or other curiousity traffic.

In fact, my experience has been that virtually every "cold" customer walking in or calling has done so because they've either mistaken the store for a video game store, or are trying to find a copy of some boardgame like Dominion or Carcassone that's relatively mainstream but maybe not available at Target or Walmart.

Most tabletop gamers I know got into the hobby either through a friend who was already in it, or through going to a store that happened to sell minis games for other reasons (e.g. comic books, boardgames, AD&D). That's how I got into the hobby - stumbling across Rogue Trader via a comic book store, and then happening to befriend someone who actually played. I think a few recent players got into it via the various computer games and then Googled their way into the tabletop hobby and its retail outlets.

In other words - I've never seen nor heard of a GW hobbyist who got into it by randomly stumbling across a pure-gaming store (i.e. like a GW Retail store).

I guess my point being that I'm not as sure as I once was that the hobby needs actual brick-and-mortar stores. As much as I love them, there's often just as many negatives with any individual store (e.g. full retail prices, minimal tables/terrain, bad hours, staff/customer dramas, etc.) as there are positives (immediate purchase gratification, place to play outside home, place to play tourneys, etc.).

I think the person earlier in this thread hit it pretty spot on that most if not all of GW's worse decisions have been reactionary attempts to support retail stores, whether theirs or in general. As much as I love 'em, at the same time it doesn't seem wise to push or insist on a business model if times have changed and that model just isn't sustainable anymore.

Having said that, GW's "decline" as a subject is something I think that has long been "seeing is believing". I've been in the hobby since Rogue Trader, and GW has been demonized for one thing or another since at least '98 (3rd edition 40k). They've had a decade+ to "screw" gamers over price increases, the effective killing off of Specialist Games, dropping the bitz ordering system, interfering with online ordering, slow releases, bad rule balances, continuous new editions, etc., yet they're still around and are still a top dog.

Yes, they probably now have larger competitors than before - my guess is Privateer Press and Battlefront have been much more successful than most past companies at total sales and market penetration - but their tabletop games are still around, they're decently well-known outside the hobby, and with the computer games they're only going to get more well-known).

As someone who's long-questioned the sanity or intelligence of GW's business decisions, and who often thinks they succeed in spite of themselves much more than because of their decisions, I'll still say they're standing, and standing amongst the top.

[Lockjaw]

when you can get a good boxed starter crew for Malifaux for 30-, maybe 40$ at the most, then look at Warhammer armies (for those that just buy their mini's directly from GW or GW retalers), it can be a few hundred, I've had friends that liked warhammer but wouldn't get into playing it due to pricing, many of them play Malifaux now.

[New Cult King]

GW would do well to follow Lego's retailing/marketing scheme.

Let stores like K-Mart, Target, Toys R Us etc stock their product in high visibility places, and let those already well-established stores bear the cost of rent and staff salaries etc.

Have maybe one decent sized centre in each capital city for people to go to if they like.

[DeviLution]

@ Night Bearer:

Two things I know for a fact.

One: That the brick & mortar stores do bring people into the hobby, regardless of age or intents of the customer, and it doesn't matter if it's an LGS or LGW. I know this from experience. I understand that you're a similar case, too, and I'm the same way - I saw a poster for Battlefleet Gothic in the LGS I hung out at at that time (for MtG), played a demo, and bought in. After getting two full fleets and playing as many games, I transitioned into 40k 'until people picked up BFG', lol. Never happened. That was thirteen years ago now.

Two: GW themselves have been reporting declining sales for at least the past five years. No one I know has access to records further back, I'd have to pay to get that info at this point. But I know they have been losing sales for five years, at any rate, and I'd bet money that it goes back further than that.

Are they still making a profit? Absolutely yes, without a doubt. Just not as much as they did five or more years ago.

@ New Cult King:
That's kind of what I advised by saying GW should be getting out of (completely or mostly) the retail biz. But WalMart, Target, etc? Not sure about that. It could either benefit GW, as it did Lego and Magic: the Gathering, or it could help doom them like it did the Remote Control cars and model railroad / planes / cars industries. I'd be highly inclined that it would be the latter for GW.

It has a great deal to do with how high maintenance and highly skilled the products are. Anyone can buy M:tG or Legos and get a kick out of them for a long time without needing anything else, including skill. Not so with GW, as well as the others I mentioned like them. Face it, it takes too much skill to just drop into this, and it helps if the people you buy it from know something of the product - part of why RC and modeling didn't benefit by being sold at those types of places.

Imagine you're a family and you're at one of the big box marts. Now imagine your son sees the GW minis. It looks just like a model kit. And that's all it would ever be to you and him, because there's no indication on the box, other than the brand name, that it's a game. And good luck getting a big box to carry everything you'd need for it. Worse yet, no one that works there would have a clue about it. That's why it wouldn't work to sell there, and that's what screwed over the RC / model companies that sell there.

Face it, big box marts can't sell this well, and it wouldn't make much money for GW. While the impulse buys help them, they need to have those sustained a certain amount every year for as many years as they can get. And the people that bought GW at a big box would be nothing but bad word of mouth, which they really don't need or want, as well as one or two buys on average, at most.

~DeviLution

[Hellfury]

It is so hard to choose from the three.

I mean, GW certainly do shoot themselves in the foot on so many things I could not even begin to choose just one.

If I had to choose just one though, I would say that GW retail is the true root of their eventual demise if not nipped in the bud.

Back when they were predominantly a manufacturer, they prospered by directing people who called them to order from their local LFGS. Nowadays, they seem to want their cake and eat it too by attempting to get all the direct business they can and still expect indies to keep their stock to the levels that GW almost demands.

I think everything follows from that.

I am not an economist, but from my limited retail experience you have to offer your customers two of three things:

The best prices.
The best customer service.
The best product.

Lets just eliminate "Best Prices" from this list right now since this is not their obvious strong suit.

The best customer service is debatable. On the one hand, if you have a problem with a product, they are quick to fix it. On the other hand, their PR stinks to high heaven as they seem to alienate and have an almost willful disdain for their customers, target demographic or not. So this is fairly neutral leaning towards negative depending on what you define customer service as.

This leaves us with best product. There is no doubt that their miniatures are very fine, but their product quality as taken as a whole has much to be desired. Their game mechanics have an implanted plan of obsolescence even though they have proven themselves capable of making not only good but fabulous miniature rules in the past. (which brings us back to manufacturing. They should just be Citadel again and not GW since their games in general are of questionable merit, just like their retail attempts)

So they excel in none of the above. The only reason why they are still the leader in the industry has to do with their customers and the investment they have made in their hobby. Nobody wants to see what they have invested in become extinct and their games are nearly ubiquitous at game shops.

But even this is slowly changing and drifting away from GW's favor.

The future for GW is not bright. They will continue to be around for awhile, but the real question is exactly for how long at this rate when GW continue to ignore innovation and giving the customers the same old reason to kvetch about them. New model making techniques are not enough. Rehashing the same old rules arent either. They need to shake things up quick or they too will falter like so many before them and will have nobody to blame but themselves.

Apologies for that getting a bit ranty.

I guess put me down for The Cure since increased prices are in part caused by their retail failure.

[ted1138]

GW can't even promote their Forgeworld and Historicals lines in their magazine, let alone be bothered to stock them in their stores, so who's in charge of GW anyway? And what do they get paid for?

[DeviLution]

@ Hellfury:

No need to pick just one. If you think it's two or three, by all means, say so, and why! Note that I did just that, myself. And no worries, you didn't sound ranty to me.

In the end, this is a debate more than voting. Lockjaw, I'll take your comment as a Rat Race. Currently I'm looking at:

Attitude: 5, Cure: 3, Rat Race: 3.

What I find interesting is that the topic's skewed more towards how GW wants to sell to LGS / Indie Websites, but undercuts / limits them every chance they get (Maelstrom & Wayland, anyone? No checkout carts?).

While I started off thinking it was likely the Attitude, now I find myself seeing far more merit to the issue of the LGW stores and how they relate to the Rat Race concept.

~DeviLution

[jack da greenskin]

GW can't even promote their Forgeworld and Historicals lines in their magazine, let alone be bothered to stock them in their stores, so who's in charge of GW anyway? And what do they get paid for?

Or even let FW be shipped to their stores for free, or let FW be ordered instore, or let FW accept paypal

[Steve54]

As ever, it depends where. Here in the UK, GW's breadbasket, I have literally encountered no-one who plays games from other companies and I've only once actually seen products from a competitor in a B&M store (some FoW tucked away in a corner of some tiny indie in a fairly run-down part of town). Nothing that could even begin to detract from GW.

Thats an incredible statement - do you only shop+play in GW stores as thats the only explanation I can see?
FLGS around here must be 60%GW 40% others with gameplay more tilted 40-60 which is approximately the same in most FLGS+clubs I've been to. If you go to Maelstrom stock must be 70-30 others-GW and gameplay in evenings about 60-40 with lots of warmachine+FOW

[MagosHereticus]

I'm a vet, and my contribution to the company has been recruiting new players (i have enough armies to loan them to beginners and inspire them) to the hobby, many of whom are jumping ship because of the embargo and the pain of price rises

all i wanted in return was my monies worth for my white dwarf subscription (i cancelled it about a year ago because it wasnt forthcoming) and fair deals (maelstrom were fantastic, i showed people who would never set foot in a GW how to get bang for their buck so they could start playing with me)

i am resigned to my gaming group having almost completely dissolved (we never once took up space in their precious hobby centers mind you)

[yabbadabba]

GW can't even promote their Forgeworld and Historicals lines in their magazine, let alone be bothered to stock them in their stores, so who's in charge of GW anyway? And what do they get paid for?

Or even let FW be shipped to their stores for free, or let FW be ordered instore, or let FW accept paypal

It was never a part of FWs remit to go through the GW stores in anyway. In essence they are for all intents and purposes a serparate business, same with WHH. There are plenty of companies which don't use paypal either for a variety of reasons.

@Nightbearer - there is a real difference in approach with the UK and US. Technically the model works when its aimed at non-hobbyist customers, the sort of people who wouldn't walk into a LGS, as well as scooping up all the people who would and do. However in the US there is a cultural difference as well. At a push GW could go for flagship stores in major urban areas with a full range access, but moving beyond that which I believe their plans are isn't going to work. I'd would solely work on the basis of a minimum crew in the US working through distributors and LGSs for the next 5-10 years.

The problems with GW aren't with its retail business, but two-fold. The first is their business strategy and the second is their culture. The danger for me is we are debating the decline of a business which adults see as aimed at them, when the business sees itself aimed at 11-18 year old middle class kids. In this case its no wonder Vets are going to see a disconnect, when there might not be one in GWs eyes.