Debating the Decline of Games Workshop

[lanrak]

Hi all.
IMO GW plc DEPEND on peoples investment to keep them loyal to GW products.
And because 40k requires such a high investment of time MONEY and effort, many 40k players assume the same is required from other games.

However , this is not the case.
As already mentioned other manufacturers tend to offer much better VFM.
And why not use exiting minature collections as proxies in new rule sets?
As there are quite a few FREE to down load rule sets available.

The cost of trying out new rules with existing your minatures is simply a bit of time and effort.

I would say the finacials are showing fewer people starting 'The GW hobby'(tm).Combined with more veteran players moving on...

GW plc used to produce a range of games and associated minatures.
These were written for gamers of all ages.
They realised great game play KEPT gamers interested for longer.And great game play generated general interest in the large pool of potential gamers of all ages.

However, corperate managment simply decided the 'core games ' were the most profitable games.(Without understanding the 'gateway and fence' function the other games served.They gave people multiple easy ways to get in to GW games, and offered something different to try when people wanted a change of pace.)

And the corperate managment bean counter simply saw that targeting the easiest to please (11 to 16 year olds,) was the easiest way to generate cash short term.And they simply assumed a churn and burn policy would sustain the buisness long term.
But with depending on word of mouth for marketing ,generating 'burned customers at higher frequency ' has an obvious negative impact on consumer percerption.

[Easy E]

Sometimes, I forget how good you wargamers in the UK have it. Lot's of local manufacturers relatively cheap.

[Lars Porsenna]

Your local gamers must be the oddest people. You can't get anyone to try historicals even if they can borrow your armies?

Not so odd...

My experience with historicals (or any game for that matter) usually go like this:

Me: "Hey, I got this new great game called Infinity, and enough figures for two sides. Wanna try it out?"
Opponent: "Sure!"

We play the game, fun is had.

Me: "Cool game! So do you think you might get into this? Minis are gorgious!"
Opp.: "It's a fun game, to be sure, but I'm going to stick with Warmahordes..."

Damon.

[Crazy Harborc]

Lars

I hope your luck changes on finding more Historical opponents. We have PLENTY of them in this area.

[lanrak]

Hi folks...
If people try out new games and pick the ones they like best, THIS is what is supposed to happen!
(If some one prefers Warmchine to Infinity , or Fast And Dirty to StargruntII, this is fine!)
However, alot of GW gamers do not even try out alterantive games.

They seem to belive other rule sets are too complicated and hard to learn, or you need to spend a fortune on minatures before they can play.(I wonder where they get that idea from?)

But after allowing everyone to look at a wide range of great rule sets available , NOT one gamer at our club prefers GWs 40k /WHFB rules.

Some gamers might prefer 40k/WHFB.But the point is they should try lots of rule sets to find out if 40k/WHFB is thier prefered rule set.NOT just the one they feel stuck with...

[Crazy Harborc]

IMHO....the "majority" of Warseer posters started gaming by way of GW goodies.

Heck, I have no idea just how many GW gamers actually "know about" other rules and or minies.

Maybe GW's suits will "discover" how to turn the decline around

[AndrewGPaul]

Ignoring the D6 remark (...what?) you have to accept the other point you mention is actually quite valid. If someone's spent thousands on GW models, there is obviously a natural resistance to make them redundant by using other gaming systems. Neither is it the sunk costs fallacy - if you're going to bin thousands of pounds/dollars worth of models, why stick with wargaming? Why not try a new hobby altogether?

Why bin the models? If you like the setting, but don't like the rules of the game, just use different rules and the same background and miniatures. Future War Commander has army lists for the available Epic miniatures, for example, and you can use your 40K armies in Stargrunt, Tomorrow's War (when it comes out) or another generic ruleset of your choice. Or just use them as proxies in Infinity or whatever.

Really, GW's great success was managing to get people to think that you can only use <Company X>'s miniatures with <Company X>'s rules.

[New Cult King]

Why bin the models? If you like the setting, but don't like the rules of the game, just use different rules and the same background and miniatures. Future War Commander has army lists for the available Epic miniatures, for example, and you can use your 40K armies in Stargrunt, Tomorrow's War (when it comes out) or another generic ruleset of your choice. Or just use them as proxies in Infinity or whatever.

Really, GW's great success was managing to get people to think that you can only use <Company X>'s miniatures with <Company X>'s rules.

If my sig wasn't already quite full, I'd sig this.

[Crazy Harborc]

My opponents and I use the GW human minies as standins. If we start up another set of fantasy rules and armies, we will use whatever we choose of our collections of GW minies OR any other company we want.

GW does not pay us. IMHO, the GW decline WILL continue until GW gets the message and tries to stop it's decline into the dustbin of failed minies companies.

[herbtarkel]

I too haven't had a GW game in a long time - probably a year. The local club moved to Warmahine/Hordes which I can't stand at all.
So a bunch of us moved off in a historical direction. Black Powder is the ruleset we have been using, although the new and fantastic Waterloo set is about to get a go. I have a French 1813ish army that will be massive when all built, I ordered the deal from Perry miniatures. It consisted of: D19:
French Napoleonic - Army deals

Black Powder French Army Deal - Mounted Napoleon pack, 16 plastic box sets of French Napoleonic Infantry (672 Infantry), 1 pack of Mounted Colonels, 1 pack of generals, 1 pack of Corps commanders, 3 packs of Line foot artillery. 8 plastic box sets of cuirassiers/carabiniers (112 cavalry) 1 pack of heavy cavalry commanders, the Marshal Ney pack, 3 packs of Line horse artillery? and a signed copy of Black Powder.
Actual price £487.00 -Deal price £415.00 and POST FREE

That's a huge amount of minis, 672 infantry alone! I have 4 regiments/battalions now built and painted plus all the artillery. Cavalry are up next.

[SunTzu]

Yeah, the Perrys are damn hard to beat on the quality and value for money scales at the moment. I didn't aim quite so high as you, my Napoleonic French army "only" has about 150 models, but there again it only cost me about £100. Very, very reasonable price - and absolutely beautiful models.

I still play Warhammer as I'm struggling to convince my gaming group to play historicals, but I'm not sure how long that will last.

[Wil Grand]

Yeah, the Perrys are damn hard to beat on the quality and value for money scales at the moment. I didn't aim quite so high as you, my Napoleonic French army "only" has about 150 models, but there again it only cost me about £100. Very, very reasonable price - and absolutely beautiful models.

I still play Warhammer as I'm struggling to convince my gaming group to play historicals, but I'm not sure how long that will last.

Easiest eay to encourage them over is to provide both sides and pick a WHH title so it's familiar ground and pick up and play.

[herbtarkel]

Yeah, if Perry Miniatures ever make enough of the British to do an opposing army I will likely start the hoer side too. Victrix have a good start but I like the Perry packaging better as they include the flank companies in the box. Highlanders please!

[SunTzu]

I have Perrys British... but all metal. Nowhere near as affordable...

[Crazy Harborc]

Several companies are selling good quality minies (way) under the current GW prices. I prefer the in scale/in correct proportion (hands, heads, weapons, etc) look of those non-GW minies be they fantasy, historical or whatever.

To help keep within my budget, be they plastic or metal minies, the bases/movement trays just may only have four (or three) minies on the trays. That is for cavalry and or foot, I reduce the body count.

Most of the current metal minies out there are too pricey. Thankfully we can now select 25-28mm plastic minies in a growing number of ranges.

[mulkers]

Well i have abstained from GW since the trade of terms fiasco.

I'd take it not much has happened with GW's state of affairs since?

[Autumn Leaves]

Hi all.
IMO GW plc DEPEND on peoples investment to keep them loyal to GW products.
And because 40k requires such a high investment of time MONEY and effort, many 40k players assume the same is required from other games..

Any business requires peoples investment.
Period.
GW does not deem that they have any 'need' for long term loyalty.
Get that notion out of your head right now.
They have targeted the 12-15 year old bracket for the last 12 years now.
If they can get two birthdays and two xmas' out of a kid in that age bracket they consider the 'model' to be working.
Anything after that is pure gravy.
That includes you and me.
Sad, yes, but thats how it has been for a long time now.
Oh how I wish GW would take this tunnel vision marketing approach towards parental disposable income and kick it to the Kirby.
However, as long as they continue to be a viable business the bad news is that they wil not look after the older gamer brigade, in any way that reflects that customer sector as a priority.

As already mentioned other manufacturers tend to offer much better VFM.
And why not use exiting minature collections as proxies in new rule sets?.

Ummmm... err.... it's already been happening in a Big way in the older gaming fraternity.
Go to your local club anbd you will see the wide variety of tabletop games being played.

As there are quite a few FREE to down load rule sets available.
The cost of trying out new rules with existing your minatures is simply a bit of time and effort. .

It's true.
I recommend this path to long term gamers looking for more fun, more bang for their buck and more variety.

I would say the finacials are showing fewer people starting 'The GW hobby'(tm).Combined with more veteran players moving on....

It's possible but the Hobbit is coming, in two parts, and they (the GW board) wont be changing tack until that golden goose has laid it's eggs.

GW plc used to produce a range of games and associated minatures.
These were written for gamers of all ages.
They realised great game play KEPT gamers interested for longer.And great game play generated general interest in the large pool of potential gamers of all ages..

Unfortunately all those games have finite collectablity. In other words, from a retail perspective, once you have the components necessary you no longer need to buy any further models for it, so it's a dead end financially compared to the ongoing ever changing rules sets and editions and army books and codexes in Warhammer fantasy and 40K.
Games like Man OWar, Blood Bowl, Space Hulk and Mordheim are all excellent games, but they are dead ends for a retail outlet because once purchased they no longer require any add ons.
Consequently they were marginalised with only the occasional reappearance on the radar.

However, corperate managment simply decided the 'core games ' were the most profitable games..

Ummm... err.... thats because in real money terms, they are !!
No question about that.

(Without understanding the 'gateway and fence' function the other games served.They gave people multiple easy ways to get in to GW games, and offered something different to try when people wanted a change of pace.).

I think that is a fair point.
I notice Ronnie Renton has used the board game 'Dwarf Kings Hold' to good effect to entice new custom into the Mantic range with good effect.
GW could do the same but they won't as long as they still place the purse of the parental disposable income above all other sacred relics on the GW boardroom financial altar of worship.

[Shimmergloom]

Unfortunately all those games have finite collectablity. In other words, from a retail perspective, once you have the components necessary you no longer need to buy any further models for it, so it's a dead end financially compared to the ongoing ever changing rules sets and editions and army books and codexes in Warhammer fantasy and 40K.
Games like Man OWar, Blood Bowl, Space Hulk and Mordheim are all excellent games, but they are dead ends for a retail outlet because once purchased they no longer require any add ons.
Consequently they were marginalised with only the occasional reappearance on the radar.

You can say that about any board game, from Monoply to Scrabble. But that's now their point. The small intro games are not and shouldn't be designed to be the only games that people play. But should be there to get people into the door. Let Mordheim and Space Hulk be the small skirmish board games that get people interested in WFB or 40k. Then that leads to those people wanting to make full armies. Instead now you just have people seeing the huge price involved in starting a 40k or WFB army and just going and playing a rival system instead.

And you talk about them not needing new add-ons, but they don't need add-ons. There's a half dozen specialist games at least that GW could pump out. 1 a year and every few years a new edition comes out, just like with WFB or 40k.

1. Space Hulk
2. Blood Bowl
3. Mordheim
4. Man-O-War
5. Necromunda
6. Battlefleet Gothic

That's 6 of the top of my head, not to mention things like Warmaster or Epic that they could pump out rules for and 15mm minis for constantly.

And maybe if they would get their head out of the stone age and stop trying to price gouge people to death, they would put things like Space Hulk and Blood Bowl into regular stores along side other board games at an affordable entry price and then have throngs of people who they could get interested in their main games.

Instead they want to charge extravagant prices so that no chain store is going to even bother wanting to stock the games.

[Satan]

That there's anything "ever-changing" about 40k/Fantasy is news to me. I think the lack of Dynamics is the greatest hindrance to the game. Without the Comp and ETC being revised for each release I'd probably just let the game die a calm and silent death...

[Black-Tooth]

Well i have abstained from GW since the trade of terms fiasco.

I'd take it not much has happened with GW's state of affairs since?

What's the trade of terms fiasco?