Official WarSeer Finecast Poll.

[Druchii Monkey]

And I say it's an improvement in most ways.

In time, the consumor will make the final decision. Not you or me. That's how it works.

Yeh, but you or me are consumers aren't we?

Ooops, just saw your edit.

[chamelion 6]

Yeh, but you or me are consumers aren't we?

Ooops, just saw your edit.

Yeah.... After I re-read it I realized it was poorly worded....

[EmperorNorton]

Every company makes "the best," "the finest," "the most superb." In the end the consumor has to decide whether the product is worthy of your investment. What GW says doesn't exonerate you from having to make a value judgement. If you bought the mini based on GW's advertising alone, then you get one of these...

I expect most people will have bought their first Finecast based on their previous experience with GW's minis, expecting at least the usual quality. Many did not get that. And only at that point did the exaggerated marketing statements enter into things.

It's what I see with my own eyes and hands that I make my judgements.

Just be careful not to confuse your deoderant with spraypaint, you know, like confusing Finecast with plastic.

[chamelion 6]

I expect most people will have bought their first Finecast based on their previous experience with GW's minis, expecting at least the usual quality. Many did not get that. And only at that point did the exaggerated marketing statements enter into things.


Just be careful not to confuse your deoderant with spraypaint, you know, like confusing Finecast with plastic.

I'll take that under advisement...

Then again, I do rather like the smell of white spray paint. Hrmmmm....

Doesn't matter when the "exaggerated marketing statements" got brought up because they are never going to raise or lower the actual quality of the product.

Just like the new Coke... Either people are willing to spend the money on it or they aren't. And in the case of Coke, the company found it prudent to go back to the tried and true. That may happen with FC also, but that remains to be seen...


But when it comes to questions of actual quality, advertising exagerations are completely irrelevant... or should be.

[75hastings69]

Doesn't matter when the "exaggerated marketing statements" got brought up because they are never going to raise or lower the actual quality of the product.

No but the product should relate DIRECTLY to the marketing statements, advertising standards are pretty stringent on this, so are trading standards .......... or so they told me on the phone.

You are clearly confusing something such as Lynx/Axe deodorant "associating" their product with a lifestyle (i.e. smell nice and you could get nice and/or more women) what they clearly DON'T do and would NOT be allowed by law to do is to directly state that using their deodorant WILL give you more women, this is where GW marketing is wrong. They make several, rather over the top, DIRECT CLAIMS ABOUT THE QUALITY OF THEIR FINECAST PRODUCT, claims which the product doesn't meet, as such they are in breach of advertising law if they continue to sell such a product knowing it is flawed (again verbatum from Trading Standards). As for things like toothpastes they have to be tested to actually do what they say (even if it's only to a lesser degree) or that to would be against the law.

But when it comes to questions of actual quality, advertising exagerations are completely irrelevant... or should be.

not when those claims are breaking advertising standards, i.e. claiming to be of a higher standard than anything else on the market, and clearly not being so.

[chamelion 6]

No but the product should relate DIRECTLY to the marketing statements, advertising standards are pretty stringent on this, so are trading standards .......... or so they told me on the phone.

You are clearly confusing something such as Lynx/Axe deodorant "associating" their product with a lifestyle (i.e. smell nice and you could get nice and/or more women) what they clearly DON'T do and would NOT be allowed by law to do is to directly state that using their deodorant WILL give you more women, this is where GW marketing is wrong. They make several, rather over the top, DIRECT CLAIMS ABOUT THE QUALITY OF THEIR FINECAST PRODUCT, claims which the product doesn't meet, as such they are in breach of advertising law if they continue to sell such a product knowing it is flawed (again verbatum from Trading Standards). As for things like toothpastes they have to be tested to actually do what they say (even if it's only to a lesser degree) or that to would be against the law.




not when those claims are breaking advertising standards, i.e. claiming to be of a higher standard than anything else on the market, and clearly not being so.

If you really think you have a case, stop wasting your time on the internet and take them to court. Tell me how it all comes out.

In the meantime, I'm trying to decide if I like white spray paint better than my regular deoderant. I can already tell you, the deoderant makes a crappy basecoat on my minis... Then again, maybe I should try the spray deoderant rather than the roll on...

[75hastings69]

I'm not taking anyone to court. If trading standards feel that GW are selling a product that does not meet the description or faulty/flawed products then they'll deal with them, all joe public needs to do is contact trading standards, which is easy, and let them know/see your issues. As for wasting time, touche!

On a lighter note I have sprayed an armpit Chaos Black once, I dare say that a few coats of dwarf/elf flesh would have sorted it out and probably would have been quicker than the actual cleaning which had to take place - especially when I was late and sporting a huge hangover!

[rodmillard]

If you really think you have a case, stop wasting your time on the internet and take them to court. Tell me how it all comes out.

It doesn't work like that in the UK - private citizens don't take multinational corporations to court over false advertising; there is a dedicated investigating authority (actually a function of local government) that pursues cases for us.

All those direct quotes from Trading Standards - they are the investigating authority for false advertising claims in the UK. They will investigate the veracity of GW's advertising claims (lol) and take them to court if necessary. In my experience Trading Standards cases usually settle out of court, but since that would require GW to issue a public apology and a product recall of some or all of the fineca$t range I don't see it happening...

[loveless]

...why are you people keeping your deodorant next to your spray primer? Those don't even belong in the same room in my experience...

[chamelion 6]

I'm not taking anyone to court. If trading standards feel that GW are selling a product that does not meet the description or faulty/flawed products then they'll deal with them, all joe public needs to do is contact trading standards, which is easy, and let them know/see your issues. As for wasting time, touche!

On a lighter note I have sprayed an armpit Chaos Black once, I dare say that a few coats of dwarf/elf flesh would have sorted it out and probably would have been quicker than the actual cleaning which had to take place - especially when I was late and sporting a huge hangover!

Ok... Confession. I sprayed myself in the face with black spray paint once. I was trying hold a piece in place and not paying attention and had the nozzel facing the wrong direction...

Seriously though. My only point is that you shouldn't be basing your opinion of the product on the advertising. FC or any other product. It should be based on the qualities of the product itself.

If the trading standards finds GW's advertising misleading, so be it, but I can honestly say it won't affect me or my opinion of FC one way or the other. To me it just seems like a separate issue and GW's problem to deal with. Tossing it into the discussion on the pro's and con's of FC seems distracting from the main point.

It doesn't work like that in the UK - private citizens don't take multinational corporations to court over false advertising; there is a dedicated investigating authority (actually a function of local government) that pursues cases for us.

It sounds similar to the State's Attorneys General office here in the US. They investigate both companies and individuals for commercial wrong doing and can take legal action against them if warrented. But that doesn't prevent an individual from bringing a civil suit if they feel damaged.

...why are you people keeping your deodorant next to your spray primer? Those don't even belong in the same room in my experience...

I have to keep my deoderant in my paint box because my bathroom cabinet is full of greenstuff, model glue, and other building supplies... There isn't room for it.

You don't keep your building supplies mixed up with your finishing supplies do you???? In Biblical times, mixing building and finishing supplies could get you stoned.

[ColShaw]

Ok... Confession. I was sprayed myself in the face with black spray paint once. I was trying hold a piece in place and not paying attention and had the nozzel facing the wrong direction...

Yeah, I was spray-priming some Battle Sisters white once, the nozzle got clogged, and rather than rotate the can (and keep the nozzle pointed away from me), I rotated the nozzle. The blockage cleared just in time to give me a jet of Skull White right in the glasses. Fortunately, I was quick enough to get it washed off before it set and ruined the specs. But I was speckled white for a while.

Way off-topic, but entertaining.

[75hastings69]

My only point is that you shouldn't be basing your opinion of the product on the advertising. FC or any other product. It should be based on the qualities of the product itself.:

i based my opinions on just that, didnt you see the mangler squig pics i posted a few pages back?

i carried my deodorant into my hobby room, where my sock drawer is, put it down on the side and picked up the wrong can by mistake

[chamelion 6]

i based my opinions on just that, didnt you see the mangler squig pics i posted a few pages back?

i carried my deodorant into my hobby room, where my sock drawer is, put it down on the side and picked up the wrong can by mistake

I just went back and found them.

Most of the flaws you circled don't really look like a big deal to me, honestly. However, If I've learned anything in this thread it's that looking at a flaw, especially in a pic on the internet, is not the same as holding it in your hand or having to actually fix it. It's easy for me to dismiss the flaws when I don't have to fix them and I didn't spend the money.

But that works in reverse to some extent too. What is a big deal to you may not be an issue to others. What you see as a flaw, some see as a challenge. The reality is that there is a certain subjectivity to it. I realized earlier in the thread that I really don't want my minis too refined or perfect because I do enjoy the challenge of "fixing" them and making them better.

I'm not suggesting that anyone accept anything they feel is substandard, as people have suggested I said, I'm simply saying that different people draw the "substandard" line in different places and I'm obiviously much more forgiving than others.

The only reason I don't have more Finecast stuff is that I find it too expensive for what it offered. Not the material, but the models that would work into my existing armies don't appeal to me at all. The Empire heros look silly and the Shaggoth is a boring model whether it's in metal or FC. I'd have gotten the Chaos Lord on the Juggernaut in FC, but it's still metal... They just aren't putting out any FC models that really apeal to me yet.

[loveless]

What you see as a flaw, some see as a challenge. The reality is that there is a certain subjectivity to it. I realized earlier in the thread that I really don't want my minis too refined or perfect because I do enjoy the challenge of "fixing" them and making them better.

That is going to be a minority opinion, trust me.

Do you enjoy getting cheese that's half-moldy, too, so you can experience the "challenge" of cutting off the bad parts?

[chamelion 6]

That is going to be a minority opinion, trust me.

Do you enjoy getting cheese that's half-moldy, too, so you can experience the "challenge" of cutting off the bad parts?

What does it matter if it's the minority opinion? Different people enter this hobby for different reasons. I think you'll find that among people that consider themselves "modelers" and not "gamers" it's not an uncommon opinion.

As for cheese... I don't judge cheese, motorcycles, bicycles, miniatures, or guitars by the same standards or criteria. Each has a different purpose and therefore, it's own criteria and standards...

And heaven help you if you judge the opposite sex by the same standards as your minis....

[loveless]

"Fixing" a faulted miniature (and bubble-filled, mold-slipped, any-material is a fault - it's not meant to be sold in that state) is not the same as "modeling" a miniature.

What you effectively said - and do correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm summarizing - is that you'd rather have a broken miniature that you can "fix" than one that comes as advertised.
To me, that's the same as buying food that's half-rotten, motorcycles with one wheel, or shoes with no soles and paying full price - it's ridiculous, because you're buying something that doesn't meet the standards it promised.

And, while I see absolutely no relevance to how I "judge" my partners, I do hold people to the same standards as everyone else: be up-front with me, let me know if there are issues, and don't freaking lie to me. If I'm looking for someone to be able to fulfill my emotional needs (and vice versa), then I'm not going to stick with them and hope I can fix them if they're incapable of doing that...if that were the case, everyone would just pair up with the first person they came across.

Again though, that's pointless - if GW is going to sell broken/incomplete products for full price and declare it a "modeling challenge" I'm going to laugh and call them insane...then stand in horrified awe as people buy into it anyway.

[Sgt John Keel]

That is going to be a minority opinion, trust me.

I don't know about that. Obviously Mr chamelion has a bit more extreme view than many others, including me, but I came upon a thread on Frothers the other day where they were urging sculptors to stop making models that has to be cut apart to be moulded, since they didn't like assembling them. I'm not sure if they were being completely serious, but anyway.

Personally, I didn't agree. I kind of like building the models (even when there isn't any real option in posing), and if we extend it to the painting, I'm not sure I'd like my minis pre–painted even if I had the choice of colours myself, which is why I probably won't ever use a painting service even if I get the money for it.

It is also related to why I don't really enjoy the new-fangled dipping techniques, or try to limit my use of the washes. It's a bit too easy. (And I don't learn anything from it.)

I don't think this really compares to fixing moulding flaws, but it is a bit of the same mindset, I suspect.

99 % of the fun in Lego is the building, right?

[loveless]

This isn't a matter of having to build a model or paint a model, it's a matter of having to fix errors that shouldn't exist.

Think of it like buying a pair of gloves for the winter. There are two pairs, both for $10. You can customize either pair however you like, but one pair is missing the middle finger on both gloves. Which would you rather buy if you were looking for something to keep your hands warm?

[rodmillard]

In Biblical times, mixing building and finishing supplies could get you stoned.

Inhaling Chaos Black gets you stoned

[chamelion 6]

"Fixing" a faulted miniature (and bubble-filled, mold-slipped, any-material is a fault - it's not meant to be sold in that state) is not the same as "modeling" a miniature.

What you effectively said - and do correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm summarizing - is that you'd rather have a broken miniature that you can "fix" than one that comes as advertised.
To me, that's the same as buying food that's half-rotten, motorcycles with one wheel, or shoes with no soles and paying full price - it's ridiculous, because you're buying something that doesn't meet the standards it promised.

And, while I see absolutely no relevance to how I "judge" my partners, I do hold people to the same standards as everyone else: be up-front with me, let me know if there are issues, and don't freaking lie to me. If I'm looking for someone to be able to fulfill my emotional needs (and vice versa), then I'm not going to stick with them and hope I can fix them if they're incapable of doing that...if that were the case, everyone would just pair up with the first person they came across.

Again though, that's pointless - if GW is going to sell broken/incomplete products for full price and declare it a "modeling challenge" I'm going to laugh and call them insane...then stand in horrified awe as people buy into it anyway.

What I mean't by my last statement in that post is that what you might find attractive in a model of a Space Marine or Goblin is probably not going to appeal to you in a living, breathing member of the opposite sex... n'est pas? That was my only point, I wasn't meaning to get personal.

And no, you really miss the point of the modeling thing. I like motorcycles because I like riding fast, not working on them. So a broken bike has no appeal. Bicycles appeal because they get me out in the woods, in the fresh air and I feel exilarated after a good ride. Broken doesn't add to that experience. And would you buy a good Brie without the rind?

I buy models because I like to work on them. I don't want to just paint it, I want to work with it. Sometimes that means converting it, sometimes that means just cleaning it up and fixing it up. Bringing it to a higher standard. For me, that hands on working with the model IS the point. It is the experience. It is the thing that appeals to me. More so than the game sometimes and the appreciation of the finished product is directly related to the work that goes into it. You call it "broken" and I can appreciate your reasoning, but to me, the term "model" means it is unfinished, unrefined, and base on which on build and refine. To me, expecing a model to be perfect is like expecting that multipart kit to come assembled.

This is why most of the analogies here fail for me. Because there is a disconnect between the purpose and the application. I don't buy gloves to fix them, or fishing rods to fix them... But I do buy models to work on them, and yes, that includes fixing them. Some people enjoy working on cars and fixing them up. Obiviously a new car off the show room floor doesn't have the same appeal to that person as a classic car found in some old garage that needs some repairs. You have to relate the purpose the person has for the object.

By taking that imperfect model and working on it, fixing the flaws and manipulating it with my own hands, in some way it make it uniquely mine. Different, though maybe similar to yours possibly, but still mine and not just one of many off the shelf.