Official WarSeer Finecast Poll.

[huitzilopochtli]

I've just received my first finecast model (Isabella Von Carstein) and I'm actually pretty pleased. Maelstrom may have taken over a month to get it to me, but they picked out a smegging good one. There are no large bubbles, just a couple of small ones on the underside. There are some mold lines and flash but I will tolerate that, and there's a little nub on the chin I will have to remove but no big deal. +1 for finecast for this model.

I remain pessimistic about the whole failcash endeavour, though. Shortly before receiving my model, I had the displeasure of working on a friend's (I was just undercoating it for him). It was a wood elf noble with great weapon and it sucked. The cloak was bumpy and uneven where it should have been smooth. There were large and small bubbles scattered all over (including one that removed the tip of the cloak, and one that occurred dead centre on the top of his head) and some miscasting on the weapon. -1 failcash.

I will post pictures of these when I get them from the camera. In the meantime, while the quality of finecast can be reasonable I still prefer metal. Actually I'd like to see GW release metal versions of finecast models as limited editions. I'd have snapped up Isabella when she came out, ordered the Empire witch hunter, helped myself to a handful of necron characters and a tomb king liche priest if they'd released some metal ones in limited numbers. I'd even tolerate another price hike to get this. As it is, failcrap has put me off buying any of these models. Even Isabella was a gift. I wouldn't have bought her for myself.

[winterdyne]

To those that say the sort of issues that plague Finecast are to be expected in resin, I picked up a Carmine Dragon and Elspeth at the FW open day today. It's utterly, utterly flawless. Not one bubble in any single part. All those tiny roses. All those tiny bird skulls. Not one dropped detail. The trickiest thing to do on it is removing the casting gate on the dragon's nose (and there would be no other way of casting the head). Superb, and the best £70 I've spent in a long time.

[Zinge]

Went to the Forgeworld Open Day and had a great time - spent more than I should have done. Intresting to see that Forge have Started using the new Finecast packaging System but not the finecast resin or method of manufacture (Arbite figure was still drop/pressure/vacuum cast). This is fine by me as the packaging was the best bit about finecast.

[winterdyne]

Actually they do use a similar resin and casting system. The chap I bought the event-only Enforcer from was also a little surprised it was drop cast rather than spin cast. 'Huh, must be because of the undercuts' he said, looking at it.
Picked up a couple of packs of the marine character upgrade set, and one of them was sprued up for spincasting just like a Finecast product. It was a bit rough in places, but passable - no loss of detail or bubbling. Nothing that a swift rub down and brush of LGS wouldn't fix. But remember, FW operate a much lower production quota, so there's a chance to do things properly for the most part. They also use an appropriate resin and technique for the particular designs in question.

[azhagmorglum]

Think about it for a moment. The bit about QA guys being human is very true - but the thing is, the human brain adapts and adjusts to a certain level. If these are the things they consider 'good', what are the things they consider 'bad' like?

Now apply this thought to the customer. Maybe what they want is to overwhelm our brains with more or less badly damaged model until we accept the fact that it is (or should be) the norm. Then we will all happily buy finecrap models and be content if there are just some bubbles and one or two badly cast parts.
As you said we adapt and adjust, and when only resin models are available, you'll buy them without second thought. So far it's not a big success, but I'm sure it'll come eventually.

Then again you have the supposition that they may be doing that to come back later to metal models or using a better resin, and say something along those lines : "this is the best stuff we've come up with and it justifies (another) price increase blablabla" and everybody will be content to buy the same models as before (when they were all metals), but even more expensive.

But let's not get paranoid here...

[Born Again]

So a couple of weeks ago I sent a letter off to Mark Wells, expressing my concerns about the quality of Finecast. I explained that while I was very happy with the quality of detail and ease of working with Finecast when everything went right, the fact was that a full 50% of the Finecast models that have passed through my hands have had a considerable defect of some kind and that, as a long time gamer, was concerned over this and the reaction it was producing in fellow gamers and collectors.

I today received a reply from Max Bottrill, the Head of Product and Supply whom my letter was forwarded to after Mark Wells read it. I won't go in to detail and post the whole thing, but he said they would be implementing 100% checks (by this I assume he means checking every single model, as opposed to, say, one in every five or whatever they may have done previously, and tossing out casts that had any kind of minor defect) as well as, and this is perhaps most important, sitting down with the "Finecast team" (by which I would assume he means everyone from key sculptors, product and material heads all the way down to casters) to review the entire process.

I guess there's still going to be a period of old stock leaving the warehouse, but hopefully this could lead to an improvement in things all round.

[angora]

That sounds hopeful. If they can get the quality right I'd be reasonably happy. I'd prefer a stiffer medium as I find Finecast a bit "wiggly" but if they can stop the bubbles and miscasts then I'd be OK with it.

[Rick_1138]

Well in defence of recent finecast, i recently bought the SW lord on a thunderwolf and arjac rockfist. Both models i was able to open up and inspect at length in store in my mail order.

Not a single issue bar one small bubble on a claw of the wolf, this is a multi sprue kit btw! the same with rockfist, all crisp clean casts.

I seem to do well with finecast, not had many major issues bar the logan grimnar who has a fair bit wrong, but is an old mold and a metal mold originally, so i forgave it that, and was one of the first releases.

Hopefully this is a sign of improvement.

[CrazyChib]

I seem to do well with finecast, not had many major issues bar the logan grimnar who has a fair bit wrong, but is an old mold and a metal mold originally, so i forgave it that, and was one of the first releases.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe all Finecast models are from all new molds, even the formerly metal models. For the models that were previously metal, GW used the original masters to create the Finecast molds.

[75hastings69]

So a couple of weeks ago I sent a letter off to Mark Wells, expressing my concerns about the quality of Finecast. I explained that while I was very happy with the quality of detail and ease of working with Finecast when everything went right, the fact was that a full 50% of the Finecast models that have passed through my hands have had a considerable defect of some kind and that, as a long time gamer, was concerned over this and the reaction it was producing in fellow gamers and collectors.

I today received a reply from Max Bottrill, the Head of Product and Supply whom my letter was forwarded to after Mark Wells read it. I won't go in to detail and post the whole thing, but he said they would be implementing 100% checks (by this I assume he means checking every single model, as opposed to, say, one in every five or whatever they may have done previously, and tossing out casts that had any kind of minor defect) as well as, and this is perhaps most important, sitting down with the "Finecast team" (by which I would assume he means everyone from key sculptors, product and material heads all the way down to casters) to review the entire process.

I guess there's still going to be a period of old stock leaving the warehouse, but hopefully this could lead to an improvement in things all round.

Lol, I laugh at this, and sadly also at you for believing it! I was told exactly the same thing after the necron releases (after 13 attempts at getting the stormlord character that was worth painting - which I add I gave up with in the end).

GW have no intention of spending more money on improving finecrap, period. What they are relying on is gradual desensitisation of the buyers, and it's happening already.... "it was a perfect cast apart from the claws were missing on one foot, but I'll fix those myself etc. etc." GW have even moved their stance now from proclaiming it the very pinical of miniature casting to.... first thing we filled the bubbles on the hellcannon using our awesome liquid greenstuff, which you can buy at the same time etc. like they're doing you a favour. The sad truth is too many people are accepting this inferior product for anything to change, and gw profit margins have increased massively as they no longer have to pay the expensive costs for the metal they used to use.

[Born Again]

^ Typical Warseer cynicism at it's best. Laugh away at me if you like, if hoping for an improvement is laughable. I'm not yet jaded enough to sit there and think every single thing GW does is part of an evil plan to leech every last cent from teenager's wallets. The Necron release wasn't that long ago, I'm not sure what the time frames are like for how far in advance they cast stuff, and as I said it could take some time for any changes that do occur to roll through to on-shelf stock. I for one am not accepting inferior product, however, and if I don't see an improvement I will continue to let them know about it. As for the Hellcannon article, they said they found "only a few airbubbles. It was nothing a touch of Liquid Green Stuff couldn't sort out" and, to be fair, there has never been a metal model I've assembled that hasn't had "only a few" bits of flash or blobs obscuring detail that needed to be fixed up, which was usually harder in metal. Yes, you can buy Liquid Greenstuff at the same time, you could say that's a money grabbing scheme, or you could say they are making available a solution to a problem in their product. It depends how you want to be about it. If people will persist with silly nicknames like "finecrap", maybe the name of the site should similarly be changed to "Warcynic".

[Jonahmaul]

I would argue that we sit somewhere in the middle of these two points. I certainly agree that GW are attempting to get people to accept flaws in finecast miniatures whereas before they were proclaiming it to be pretty much perfect. Metal miniatures had flash and blobs of metal that needed cleaning and mold slips sometimes ruined miniatures but the problem with finecast is that is seems to have these problems plus the air bubbles issue. Yet it has been proven by many other companies that it IS possible to do good quality casts out of resin which GW is currently failing to achieve. On the other hand I think that there seems to have been an improvement since the finecast was first released as we seem to be hearing less complaints (certainly in this thread) than we were previously. And I believe that GW are trying to improve the quality of both the casts and the QC (even if this gets me laughed at) as the sheer number of complaints and exchanges they have had to do means that any business with some sense (and GW is a good business) needs to address such issues before a significant number of individuals say enough is enough. Whether it reaches a point where the majority of miniatures are coming out as good casts is another matter altogether and only time will tell...

[shelfunit.]

^ Typical Warseer cynicism at it's best. Laugh away at me if you like, if hoping for an improvement is laughable.

There has not been a single iota of improvement in the casting quality of FC since it's release nearly a year ago. The same number of horrific casts are around now as there were at the start. If there has been any improvement in the QC then it hasn't filtered down yet, and that is in itself worrying.

I'm not yet jaded enough to sit there and think every single thing GW does is part of an evil plan to leech every last cent from teenager's wallets. The Necron release wasn't that long ago, I'm not sure what the time frames are like for how far in advance they cast stuff, and as I said it could take some time for any changes that do occur to roll through to on-shelf stock.

Well, as is often said - they are there to make money. The Necron release was 2-3 months ago now, if they had a decent amount of time prior to release then why were they not checking the casting quality in that time? A new release has it's fastest sales at the very begining of a release, anything on the shelves now is almost certainly not "original" stock - if it were that would be a damning indictment of it's success.

I for one am not accepting inferior product, however, and if I don't see an improvement I will continue to let them know about it.

Great to hear. Why are you having a go at others who have been where you are now, several months ago and are still to see any improvement?

As for the Hellcannon article, they said they found "only a few airbubbles. It was nothing a touch of Liquid Green Stuff couldn't sort out"

Well, they'd hardly go on about how they had to return it several times would they. The pictures of the FC Hellcannon on the website (when it was released) showed several sections that were, for want of a better term "photo-shopped". There are also no close ups of the Hellcannon on the blog, which would have been useful.

and, to be fair, there has never been a metal model I've assembled that hasn't had "only a few" bits of flash or blobs obscuring detail that needed to be fixed up, which was usually harder in metal.

Flash exists on FC and I have never seen "blobs" obscuring detail on a metal model out of several hundred that I have bought from GW, neither has anyone I know - FC however, just take a look at the majority of pics in this (and many other) threads.

Yes, you can buy Liquid Greenstuff at the same time, you could say that's a money grabbing scheme, or you could say they are making available a solution to a problem in their product.

Ummm... that's the same thing - unless they give the liquid greenstuff away for free with the models. I will not knock LGS itself though - magnificent substance.

It depends how you want to be about it. If people will persist with silly nicknames like "finecrap", maybe the name of the site should similarly be changed to "Warcynic".

Nicknames for products only exist if there are solid reasons for them - FC - I don't use the name "FineCast" as it does not warrent it - has not shown itself to be a forward move in miniature production. Well, for the most ardent GW supporter it essentially is, going by your logic though it should be renamed "War-reality".

[EmperorNorton]

So after a year they say they are going to do what they should have done from the beginning.
I have two reactions to that:
1) I'll believe it when I see a positive result.
2) (in my best Chris Rock voice) What do they want, a cookie?

[spaint2k]

GW have no intention of spending more money on improving finecrap, period. What they are relying on is gradual desensitisation of the buyers, and it's happening already.... "it was a perfect cast apart from the claws were missing on one foot, but I'll fix those myself etc. etc." GW have even moved their stance now from proclaiming it the very pinical of miniature casting to.... first thing we filled the bubbles on the hellcannon using our awesome liquid greenstuff, which you can buy at the same time etc. like they're doing you a favour. The sad truth is too many people are accepting this inferior product for anything to change, and gw profit margins have increased massively as they no longer have to pay the expensive costs for the metal they used to use.

I couldn't agree more. The older, perhaps more cynical, hobbiest is going to continue rejecting poor casts but they (we) are such a minority of customers it won't make any difference. GW's target audience isn't going to notice the poorly cast rough finish on a supposedly smooth area, the bendiness of the model is relatively unimportant to someone who won't even clean off mould lines, and the bubbling issue... "Nah Mum, it's s'posed to be like that! Filling in holes and sculpting bits is part of the HOBBY!"

[Hendarion]

I dunno, spaint2k, but my mom never checked my models close enough that she could have found bubbles.

[spaint2k]

Haha! My mother might have, and I could totally see myself at 12 years old justifying it like that.

[azhagmorglum]

Well "if" they indeed improve QC or QA or whatever, expect surely another price increase with some shady explanation : well, hmm, we increased QC on FC models, so now you are going to pay even more those models that you already pay even more because they are "supposed to be" the pinnacle of miniature casting...ho and also plastic models are going up in prices too, but that's normal since finecast models are better now.

More cynism I know, but oddly enough that scenario seems more plausible to me than anything else.

Question for you all : if they had passed finecast material cost reduction on to the prices of models or at least kept the price as it was in metal, would you have accepted all those flaws much eagerly?

[winterdyne]

Not at the quality I'm getting, no. I'd expect maybe one or two bubbles requiring minor sculpt fixes (repairing edges etc) (not including pin-prick size) and a bit of warping to fix at roughly a quarter to a third the price they're being pitched at now. As is, they're charging higher than premium rates, for a (usually) completely unacceptable cast.

I think I mentioned it earlier, but I got an Elspeth on Carmine Dragon for £70 at the FW open day. Absolutely perfect, to the point where I'd have paid £90ish for it quite happily*. For what I paid, I'm actually in nerd heaven about it. Money to me isn't so much an issue if you get what you pay for. With Finecast, bluntly, you don't.

*: Assuming you get the usual FW casting errors (the odd bubble, a bit of warping) £70 is about the right price mark IMO. If FW produced consistently at the quality I got, they could hike the price, but I have to point out it was a *perfect* cast - no bubbles, no significant warping. Really, that good. Wait for the WIP thread and you'll see what I mean.

[Born Again]

Question for you all : if they had passed finecast material cost reduction on to the prices of models or at least kept the price as it was in metal, would you have accepted all those flaws much eagerly?

Not even close. They could have dropped the price and I still wouldn't accept them. A miscast is a miscast, and should be taken back and complained about.