Official WarSeer Finecast Poll.

[f2k]

Through the vagaries of the post service (delayed and misplaced packages), despite having sworn not to buy Finecast models I now have to Savage Orc Shamans lying around.

Surprisingly, they’re actually quite good. Turning them over and over in my hands, I haven’t spotted any major flaws. A few rough areas and flash, yes, but nothing major.

Interestingly, the sprue seems to have been completely recut at some point. One of the shamans is on a round, and horribly warped, sprue and one is on a square sprue with lots of extra vents.

Also, compared to the somewhat soft Finecast I encountered when they released the first models, this is a very hard, almost brittle, material. So hard, in fact, that the sprues have fractured and on one of them the shaman had broken clean off.

[Hendarion]

The boars are really meant to have such a weird belly?

[f2k]

The boars are really meant to have such a weird belly?

I think so.

It's the same with the plastic boars.

[Little Joe]

I just checked with the metal version and it looks the same. A good place to safe some material, but nothing green stuff won't fix. Metals and finecast teach you to sculpt .

There is some small bubbling but all in all not so bad, the vents on the metal teeth at the grion of the shaman breaking of and destroying the sharp edges is more of a problem, harder to repair.
Finecast seems to have some problems with skull jaw undercuts and since GW loves skulls that can be a problem. I see some bits here as well that do not belong. It was the same on the Skullmuncher I cleaned, a bit of a nuisance that.

The cast is not bad as far as finecast goes, but cleaning and preparing it will show all the errors just as it did with metals. There are more, some of which (undercuts) are easier to fix as with metals, but the destruction of details like the metal teeth and the right tooth through his lower jaw (ending in a bubble) are a pain to repair.

In the end I prefer metal, especially since I refuse to buy at current retail prices and getting finecast on eBay is too risky for me.

[EmperorNorton]

An interesting tidbit here:

I’ve heard far different from several of the casters and moldmakers at GW, since I used to work there. I was told they are only getting about 40% yield from Finecast, when they had a 90% yield with metal.

[f2k]

An interesting tidbit here:

If that's even half-way true, then it's very very bad...

[Sgt John Keel]

An interesting tidbit here:

If that's even half-way true, then it's very very bad...

Now the question is if the 40 % (if true) is what they are shipping, or if it is after returns and replacements.

[winterdyne]

Yield implies it's what they're shipping. Given the experiences that seem common, I think somewhere between 5% and 10% Yield is a far more realistic figure.

[f2k]

A thought that just occurred to me...

If 40% is the yield of models deemed suitable for sale then, considering the incredibly bad standard of the models we see in the shop, just how bad is the remaining 60%?

5% to 10% seems somewhat reasonable, but then you have to wonder: just how much resin is Games Workshop tossing into the bin every day? Must cost them a fair bit of money when you add in the wear on the moulds as well as the time needed to cast the model, pull it out and inspect it.

[Jonahmaul]

Yet they are still posting profits and plenty of people are still buying bad miscasts so even at this yield GW still seems to be on to a winner which is concerning.

[f2k]

Yet they are still posting profits and plenty of people are still buying bad miscasts so even at this yield GW still seems to be on to a winner which is concerning.

But just how much profit?

This year’s financial report will be the first where we can truly see the effect of Finecast and the southern hemisphere embargo. I must admit I’m looking forward to that – if for nothing else, then simply out of a morbid curiosity...

Other than that, I agree with you that it’s a concern. Have people really drunk the cool-aid or is it just that Games Workshops core-demographic had become so young that they don’t know any better?

[lethlis]

Personally never had any problems with finecast and would go as far as to say I prefer it. Much easier to work with. Now the thing is, are the people who are complaining the majority or just the people vocal enough to mention it? The poll at the top seems to disagree with the majority viewpoint.

[winterdyne]

I think the people who are complaining are often the people who know what they're looking at. The folks that don't are often the less experienced modellers / painters. I don't mean that in a bad way, I just mean that if someone just wants a gaming token, they tend to overlook fine detail problems. When you're looking at a piece with the intention of painting it to a very high level, many flaws that may otherwise be overlooked become unacceptable.

Incidentally, I am currently having issues with Forgeworld 'oh no it's not finecast' Skinwolf Model. Here are some lovely photos. To put into context, green circles are problems that are simple enough fixes. Red circles are 'bin this model' production flaws. I would expect in a good kit ONE OR TWO green circle problems. In 'superb' kits, none at all. Green circle problems probably wouldn't bother a lot of gamers that much and are easily enough fixed (crudely at least). Red circle problems aren't right for anyone.

First set of replacement parts. Problems so similar to the original as to not warrant me going back and taking photos of that.
http://www.winterdyne.co.uk/maz/imag.../skinwolf1.jpg
http://www.winterdyne.co.uk/maz/imag.../skinwolf2.jpg

Second set of replacements (a complete kit this time, actually worse than the original (the original the body and head were OK, on this one, just the body):
http://www.winterdyne.co.uk/maz/imag.../skinwolf3.jpg
http://www.winterdyne.co.uk/maz/imag.../skinwolf4.jpg
http://www.winterdyne.co.uk/maz/imag.../skinwolf5.jpg
http://www.winterdyne.co.uk/maz/imag.../skinwolf6.jpg

[f2k]

Those hands surprise me...

Now, I’m a novice sculptor and caster, having only cast a handful of my own creations so far. But even I realize that those fingers are big trouble. Unless properly vented, they’re just air-pockets waiting to happen.

Makes me wonder just how bad the rumoured layoffs in the casting-department were. And just how much Games Workshop is hurting from that now.

[winterdyne]

To be honest, the hands themselves would pressure cast quite nicely - it's not undercut, just a fairly long channel for flow, but it is aligned out of the plane of the sprue (meaning it receives less centrifugal pressure and is therefore likely to trap air on the trailing edge). Definitely a production technique rather than design flaw.

First I've heard of layoffs in casting? Were they letting experienced guys go in favour of temps?

[eldargal]

I've been modelling for fifteen years, I demand the highest standard in everything hobby related or otherwise and I've had no issues with Finecast. I'm not saying Finecast doesn't have quality issues, the amount of complaints indicate it does (but we have no idea how widespread they are, no objective data), but labelling anyone who hasn't had problems with it as inexperienced and implying they don't know a quality sculpt when they see one is a little insulting.

I think the people who are complaining are often the people who know what they're looking at. The folks that don't are often the less experienced modellers / painters. I don't mean that in a bad way, I just mean that if someone just wants a gaming token, they tend to overlook fine detail problems. When you're looking at a piece with the intention of painting it to a very high level, many flaws that may otherwise be overlooked become unacceptable.

[f2k]

To be honest, the hands themselves would pressure cast quite nicely - it's not undercut, just a fairly long channel for flow, but it is aligned out of the plane of the sprue (meaning it receives less centrifugal pressure and is therefore likely to trap air on the trailing edge). Definitely a production technique rather than design flaw.

First I've heard of layoffs in casting? Were they letting experienced guys go in favour of temps?

Ah, yes... I forgot they were doing centrifugal casting. Still think they should have been vented to the frame though.

The layoffs were rumoured around the time Finecast was released. Never really found out if it was true or not.

I've been modelling for fifteen years, I demand the highest standard in everything hobby related or otherwise and I've had no issues with Finecast. I'm not saying Finecast doesn't have quality issues, the amount of complaints indicate it does (but we have no idea how widespread they are, no objective data), but labelling anyone who hasn't had problems with it as inexperienced and implying they don't know a quality sculpt when they see one is a little insulting.

He does have a point though. Inexperienced gamers with all-grey armies might have a different view of what’s an acceptable cast than someone painting for a living.

Case in point, given my experience with Finecast so far, simply from observing the blisters in my local store, I must say that you’ve either been extremely lucky or you have a different view of what constitute a problematic cast.

But yes, sadly we don’t have any hard statistics. We know that one on-line store (the name escapes me right now) discarded some 50% on the initial Finecast deliveries. And now we’re hearing about 40% yield on the factory floor...

Whatever the true numbers are, I think we can safely say that Games Workshop’s got some serious issues here...

[EmperorNorton]

I've been modelling for fifteen years, I demand the highest standard in everything hobby related or otherwise and I've had no issues with Finecast. I'm not saying Finecast doesn't have quality issues, the amount of complaints indicate it does (but we have no idea how widespread they are, no objective data), but labelling anyone who hasn't had problems with it as inexperienced and implying they don't know a quality sculpt when they see one is a little insulting.

Feel free to post pictures of all those flawless Finecast minis any time.

[winterdyne]

I've been modelling for fifteen years, I demand the highest standard in everything hobby related or otherwise and I've had no issues with Finecast. I'm not saying Finecast doesn't have quality issues, the amount of complaints indicate it does (but we have no idea how widespread they are, no objective data), but labelling anyone who hasn't had problems with it as inexperienced and implying they don't know a quality sculpt when they see one is a little insulting.

I wasn't making a blanket statement, nor trying to insult anyone. I was simply pointing out that there does seem to be a correlation between the more basic end of painters and the 'ok with finecast' camp. How much of this is due to coincidence or not could be argued forever. Several of those that definitely suggest and highlight problems (Mathieu Fontaine, Bogusz Stupnicki etc) are world class painters, so there does seem to be an opposite trend of that too. Of course there will be exceptions too, but that doesn't refute that there may be a trend. Given GW's target demographic (new players, 2 sales etc etc) you can see why the company might not really care about the high end folks (who are usually capable of fixing the problems if motivated to).

Edit:
I was told by the GW CS guy that I 'must be the unluckiest man on the planet with this product'. Now *that* I found a little insulting, considering that anything not spin cast that I've bought or been sent has generally been very good.

[loveless]

I don't know, winterdyne, I almost agree that you might be the unluckiest man on the planet with Finecast. Have you gotten any good sculpts?

I've got my share of doozies, but I've had some that were pretty dang good as well. I know there are good (or at least acceptable) casts out there - I've seen them on blister racks in stores - but the chance that there's going to be some fatal flaw in the miniature is just aggravating. I don't like playing customer service tango trying to get one of those good sculpts; it's a terrible time-drain I shouldn't have to participate in.

Frankly, I'm surprised you're still buying any Finecast (though with the Skinwolf, I would have expected much higher quality, coming from ForgeWorld...and that model is a disaster).