Official WarSeer Finecast Poll.

[Born Again]

And also a hell of a lot more than "tiny" lol!!!!

But the point is its less close to the original sculpt than metal was I never got a metal model that had feet/legs etc missing from the cast in my 25 years in the hobby. Did you go back and read the outrageous claims made about the product? You can't claim it's the best in the world (which they did) when it's full of *********** holes, when other companies resins aren't! Mind you other companies use proper resin and proper casting techniques. I could name at least 20 companies that produce resin minis of a superior quality to GW.

Having never bought from other companies, only GW and FW, I've never had the chance to inspect the competition in person. Having had a better Finecast experience than you, I would be willing to say that they are at least in as a very good competitor for "best in the world", when it works - the problem is, we shouldn't be waiting for "it" to work. I have been lucky enough to see some FC models in person that were absolutely flawless, and they did look amazing. I still have absolute faith that Finecast at least has the potential to be great. The problem is that it is not being brought up to that potential. I did a count a while ago and found that a full 50% of the models that had passed through my hands were not acceptable. That is a ridiculously high number by anyone's standards. Of the other 50%, I still much prefer it over metal, though I too am growing tired of feeling like I'm playing a lottery every time I want to buy a new model.

Finecast is awful and that's only noting short term issues like poor casting, have you started to see warping and sagging pics yet? My metal minis (which were in the main part were cheaper than their finecrap replacements) haven't sagged over the years I've owned them but a empire witch hunter in finecrap turned all most like chewing gum on my window ledge in 24 degrees, next GW will be saying I need a gw branded display fridge for my minis!! I can't wait to see how this ***** holds up in the lighted cabinets at games day, although in a truth most competition painters won't touch finecrap because of all the bubbles, soft/wavy edges and missing details.

I live in Australia where temps can easily hit the high 40's in summer, and have had no problems with sagging yet. Granted I keep all my models in cases in a cupboard, so they don't get any direct sunlight, but still it's not something I've run in to personally. It's certainly not something I would tolerate though if I ever did. As I understand it susceptibility to sagging comes from the resin not being mixed correctly, so it is entirely their fault and for the prices we are paying I should be expecting it to be done correctly or get my money back.

I'm telling you WD will be advertising GW branded display refrigerators soon, to keep your finecrap in pristine condition (well as pristine as they can cast it! Lol!!!)

They'll call it the "Fenrisian Chamber"

[75hastings69]

That's quite true, as I posted back on page 4 or something it's if the mix wasn't right initially the sagging and heat related issues are most common, you'd be pissed if you spent hours painting something only for it to collapse on itself at a later date? Would GW still replace it???

However I went to the Glasgow store a few weeks back (Scotland isn't notorious for its soaring temperatures at the best of times) and their mangler squigs which were painted up fully had all sagged into the base! So is it just another freak bad mix or is it something that can be considered a flaw?

I can't understand how you can say Finecrap is a contender when you've not sampled minis from other ranges???? The resin from studio mcvey for example makes finecrap look like exactly what it is - a pile of *****!!! That's like saying you think plain digestives are in the running for biscuit of the year and then saying you've never eaten any other kind of biscuit!! Lol !!!

Also you still have "absolute faith in finecast" and then go on to say you are unhappy being in a lottery for acceptable product!!! You're just the kind of customer gw wants! Lol!!! This product has been on the market for over a year now, not to mention however many minutes was spent in development and testing, and it's still no better than the failed launch.

Fenrisian chamber would be a good name!

[Haravikk]

I haven't had any particular problems with Finecast, other than the fact that I just don't like. I mean, I've had no particular problems with Finecast that I wouldn't have had with metal in the form of minor miscastings (rough texture), bent pieces etc.
That said, I still much prefer metal. Finecast to me is summed up by its name; it's "fine", not finely detailed (seen zero evidence of these claims by GW), it's just an okay replacement to metal given that metal unfortunately has to go by necessity. I'll by Finecast models if I have to, but in any case where the model is, or was, available in metal then that's what I'm going to get wherever possible.

The thing that I hate the most is that Finecast costs so much more than metal did, yet has no actual advantages besides the weight, though on that particular point I have to say that for all the inconvenience I much prefer the weight of metal, since it actually feels like you're getting something for the money you've spent, and there's just something about an Anvil of Doom having a bit of heft to it.

[Sureshot05]

That's quite true, as I posted back on page 4 or something it's if the mix wasn't right initially the sagging and heat related issues are most common, you'd be pissed if you spent hours painting something only for it to collapse on itself at a later date? Would GW still replace it???

However I went to the Glasgow store a few weeks back (Scotland isn't notorious for its soaring temperatures at the best of times) and their mangler squigs which were painted up fully had all sagged into the base! So is it just another freak bad mix or is it something that can be considered a flaw?

I can't understand how you can say Finecrap is a contender when you've not sampled minis from other ranges???? The resin from studio mcvey for example makes finecrap look like exactly what it is - a pile of *****!!! That's like saying you think plain digestives are in the running for biscuit of the year and then saying you've never eaten any other kind of biscuit!! Lol !!!

Also you still have "absolute faith in finecast" and then go on to say you are unhappy being in a lottery for acceptable product!!! You're just the kind of customer gw wants! Lol!!! This product has been on the market for over a year now, not to mention however many minutes was spent in development and testing, and it's still no better than the failed launch.

Fenrisian chamber would be a good name!

I was bought a mangler at Xmas that was replaced due to flaws. I've had to sculpt and wedge a rock under it's foot to stop it sagging down. Still not got round to painting it and I'm glad I haven't as I suspect that the model will continue to reshape until it reaches a new equilibrium.

[75hastings69]

So you don't consider the fact you've had to prop it up with a rock that it's still flawed???

[Hellebore]

It's what happens when your lover - or even spouse - leaves you and starts engaging in questionable activities. You can't help but feel disappointed. It's only normal to feel bitter. Hastings is not alone.

Heh, i was like that after the 5th ed space marine codex and virtually every codex printed since then on account of the juvenile fappery staining their pages. After a while you realise people are still going to drink the koolaide no matter how many objective and logical arguments you make that proves it's full of Strychnine...

The pricing scheme was running a close second to the horrible quality of codex writing and when that went beyond the pale with Kaldor 'I can't believe it's not Goku!' Draigo alongside the failcast, well, there is little left to do but laugh at the sheer absurdity of it all.

Hellebore

[Spiney Norman]

I was bought a mangler at Xmas that was replaced due to flaws. I've had to sculpt and wedge a rock under it's foot to stop it sagging down. Still not got round to painting it and I'm glad I haven't as I suspect that the model will continue to reshape until it reaches a new equilibrium.

I'm glad I'm not the only one having that problem, my solution was to position a night goblin archer under his foot to prop him up.

Have you come up with a solution to stop the top squig bending backwards off the bottom one yet? My only solution so far is to store the model lying on its front so that gravity corrects the sagging.

[75hastings69]

Have either of you reported this issue to GW?

[winterdyne]

Given that it's a particular design flaw* on the model, I don't think the reports of 2 internet dudes / dudettes factor into the overall scheme of things. GW should be very aware that design has issues.

Any big, heavy lump of resin held up by a thin spindly piece of resin will sag. The finecast / fw spincast resin just does it faster, as it's extremely responsive thermally.

*: I don't personally consider this a flaw, BUT for a gaming piece sold to modellers who don't have the first idea on how to fix it, it is best considered one. It is fixable (to get the model looking just like the box) but it's an involved process involving cutting and accurate drilling.

[SunTzu]

*: I don't personally consider this a flaw...

Words for the word god.

[75hastings69]

Surely it is a flaw, the one in GW Glasgow was the same, if the design and build of the model is compromised by the material it should not be manufactured in that material, next up gw branded chocolate fireguards and motorbike ashtrays!

[Jonahmaul]

Can someone explain the difference between spin casting and pressure casting? I get the basics but I don't know why it makes such a difference in the casting and why GW is using spin casting when pressure casting seems to be the best method. And why are some casts coming out in excellent condition whereas others are coming out like a pile of ****? Should GW not be learning about the ones they did correct? Or are they getting some ok and some crap from each batch?

[winterdyne]

The point I was making is that if customers were properly informed about the nature of the material and the necessary techniques to build a model like that it wouldn't be a flaw, it would just be something that is in the nature of the material. I've built a number of resin model aircraft / spaceships etc that needed a particular technique to avoid the same issue.

But to know that technique is necessary to achieve (for a good length of time at least) the result shown on the box and not tell the customers is bad, m'kay?

Case in point, I've just finished the pre-paint build of a warhound. It's running, with ALL its weight on the back leg - the front leg is about 2" off the deck. There is no way in hell it would stay upright for more than about 20 minutes without a severe amount of reinforcement, not just at joints, but *right through* the load bearing structures, and I'd be a fool (and a liar) to tell anyone that it could. It's a good idea to think about how much force it takes to bend something (especially when warmed) and then compare that to the weight being supported (especially when it's off-centre).

I've recently been banned from posting on Forgeworld's facebook page because I pointed out their new Gargantuan squig is likely to have similar issues, and that they should probably add a section on reinforcing techniques to their working with resin guide (which is pretty good for most things). Well, maybe also because I've posted some rather embarrassing (to them) spin-cast (I make that distinction now- draw your own conclusion on the news I've heard) event-only Skinwolf pics too.

[Harry]

*: I don't personally consider this a flaw, BUT for a gaming piece sold to modellers who don't have the first idea on how to fix it, it is best considered one. It is fixable (to get the model looking just like the box) but it's an involved process involving cutting and accurate drilling.

Are you having a giraffe?

You honestly think we should have to chop up a sculpt and then drill out something as fine as that chain ..... in multiple places? ... for multiple pins or are we just to thread all the bits of drilled out chain on to one piece of robust wire then employ our Jes Goodwin like sculpting skills to repair the whole thing so it doesn't look like a dogs dinner?

No ... I will go and buy metal minis from someone else.

.... it would just be something that is in the nature of the material.

Then they have to reconsider the material. It is not fit for purpose.

[75hastings69]

I understand. IMO it is still a flaw though, the medium isn't capable of producing the end result as advertised without use of extended techniques (whether these be propping up with rocks/other models) etc. then the product is flawed as it is incapable of reaching a satisfactory purpose for what it's trying to be used for (I.e. making the mangler squigs out of finecrap is equivalent to making a teapot out of chocolate - neither will give acceptable results due to the medium being used).

My real bone of contention with the whole thing is GW marketing it is a premium product (and pricing it as such) when in actual fact it's nowhere near, the ONLY reason GW has moved to finecrap is they weren't getting a large enough profit margin from metal, any other "benefit" claimed by GW is a lie.

[winterdyne]

Can someone explain the difference between spin casting and pressure casting? I get the basics but I don't know why it makes such a difference in the casting and why GW is using spin casting when pressure casting seems to be the best method. And why are some casts coming out in excellent condition whereas others are coming out like a pile of ****? Should GW not be learning about the ones they did correct? Or are they getting some ok and some crap from each batch?

They're pretty much exactly what they sound like:

Pressure casting: The mixed resin is poured into the mould which is then placed in a pressure chamber while it cures. The pressure in the chamber compresses the resin and the mould - any air bubbles are similarly compressed; they get crushed down to pretty much nothing. Pour and pull is time consuming - pressure chambers are not large, and must be depressurised before they can be opened. Turnover of miniatures is much slower.

Spin casting: The mixed resin is poured into a spinning mould. Centrifugal force causes the resin to flow from the feed point into and through the mould cavity. As no pressure chamber is being used it's quick to pour and pull. Fast setting resins are used. Turnover of miniatures is fast. Potentially it can be pushed to faster than metal as the cooling time for metal is longer than the setting time for the resin. However, the centrifugal force does not provide enough pressure to crush bubbles. Unless you're lucky or extremely careful with the pour (remember once it's mixed it goes off real fast) you're going to trap some fairly large bubbles.

There's a second disadvantage with the extremely fast setting resins used for spin casting - you don't get time to degas them. Degassing resin is done in a vacuum chamber. The mixed resin is placed in a very low pressure chamber which causes it to 'boil' - air expands and is forced to the top of the container it's in. Sometimes this is the mould, sometimes it's the pouring vessel. This gets rid of a lot of air from the mix. If the resin is degassed pre-pour, air can be reintroduced if you pour too fast. Sometimes moulds are vibrated while pouring to help avoid trapping air as the resin is poured.


The advantage for GW in spin casting is that they don't need lots of pressure chambers, and already have a large number of spin-casting machines. It's fast.

Edit: As for the Mangler, this pic shows where I'd cut, and where I'd reinforce. Probably 1.5 or 2mm rod, ideally stainless steel as it's less flexible than brass.

http://www.winterdyne.co.uk/maz/imag...gler_chops.jpg

Red lines are cuts, green lines, roughly where the main reinforcing rod should be. Teal lines are thinner pins for alignment or to prevent twisting around the metal core. It's an involved technique for sure, but it's not quite as crazy as resculpting that whole chain.

[75hastings69]

@ Jonahmaul, what he said ^

[spaint2k]

Can someone explain the difference between spin casting and pressure casting? I get the basics but I don't know why it makes such a difference in the casting and why GW is using spin casting when pressure casting seems to be the best method. And why are some casts coming out in excellent condition whereas others are coming out like a pile of ****? Should GW not be learning about the ones they did correct? Or are they getting some ok and some crap from each batch?

First you need to understand that liquid resin is a mixture of two components, the mixing of which produces a chemical reaction that will cause the liquid to harden. Then understand that mixing this liquid will create air bubbles.

Pressure casting, in a nutshell, uses pressure to eliminate bubbles from the mix and there are two ways of doing it: low-pressure (vacuum) casting or high-pressure casting. The first is method by which bubbles are sucked out of the mixture: by lowering the pressure you will increase the size of the bubbles in the mix and hopefully evacuate them through vents. The space left in the mould will be filled up by more material entering to replace the air. High-pressure casting effectively squeezes the bubbles until the material sets. If the bubbles have been squeezed small enough they will be unnoticeable in the finished product.

Spin-casting is a technique especially well-suited to metal. Moulds are built onto a large disc that is mounted on a machine and spun very quickly while metal is poured into the centre. The molten metal flies outward due to centrifugal forces and fills the moulds. Clever vent placement allows the metal to "drive" the air pockets in front of it and force air out of the vents, creating a well-filled mould. There's quite an art to figuring out where to place vents and large pieces can prove problematic for inexperienced mould-makers.

The thing is, spin-casting is really well-suited to metal because metal's heavy. It's heavy enough to force all the air out of the vents. Resin isn't. It was an epiphany for me when someone posted the point a few pages back, but resin simply isn't heavy enough to force all air out of the mould cavities, and that's just one reason why so many casts are incomplete. Add to that that the resin itself is full of bubbles from mixing, and the "agitation method" (i.e. spinning) is apparently the way GW are trying to get the bubbles out (rather than using pressure) and you can see why I've said dozens of times that I believe the PROCESS is fundamentally flawed.

People go on all day about GW needing better QC, but all the checking in the world isn't going to help you when the basic production method appears to be a load of crap and very possibly contrary to common sense.

EDIT: Bugger! Ninja-ed by the wise Winterdyne.

[SunTzu]

The point I was making is that if customers were properly informed about the nature of the material and the necessary techniques to build a model like that it wouldn't be a flaw, it would just be something that is in the nature of the material.

Or they could use metal instead of "Finecast" and not have the flaw. Like they used to, and everyone was perfectly happy with it.

"Necessary techniques" might include "pin weak joints", "file off mould lines" or "fill gaps with putty". Techniques like "cut the model apart, insert a pin, reglue the model and resculpt the section of it that you just hacked up, all so it doesn't bend at room temperature which we never warned you might happen" are NOT, by any feasible stretch of the imagination, "necessary".

[Jonahmaul]

This is fairly similar to what I thought. What I don't understand is why GW don't move to pressure casting. I understand there is going to be a cost with it (probably quite a substantial cost as I understand moulds can be very expensive) but over the long term if this is going to produce far less mis-casts so surely it would be worth it? Even with the slower production I'm sure GW could be casting enough to meet demand as their shops always seem plenty stocked and hardly anything is out of stock on their website. Surely it's also going to stop GW shedding customers who are becoming so disillusioned that they are not buying anything any longer, not just finecast.