What Grinds your Gears?

[TheConverter15]

@ Vipoid: Haha good thing is though you could blow his venom away when he isn't looking

@Asenur: what about khorewings, thats more having the full termi army rather than replacing the standard statline of a CSM?

[Ghorhammer]

I run into that with a lot of people because my CSM are so heavily converted (for example, one of my Chaos Lords has a Privateer Press Warmachine Cankerworm torso for legs) but I do always play them as CSM, I don't field the army as 13th company SW or vanilla Marines or anything like that, but some people get on me for having non GW bitz in the army. I don't see what the problem is in a friendly game, GW run tournaments are another matter however, I don't take that army to them.

[Asensur]

@Asenur: what about khorewings, thats more having the full termi army rather than replacing the standard statline of a CSM?

Don't trying to argue with anyone, I respect your thoughts about the hobby, but unfortunately I don't share them.

For me, there is a clear line between "count-as" and "proxy". I consider using CSM minis that already have their respective codex (even if they are "converted" CSM minis) with an Astartes codex a "proxy", and that it's not fun to play against.

How is represented my opponent's army shows me everything I need to know about him/her.

[TheConverter15]

@ Asensur: Ok I see your point now, I'm just not very clear on the differences between proxy and count-as

[spaghettyhoop]

What if someone was playing a vanilla marine army, using the vanilla codex, and it was made with normal space marine models, the correct ones for everything...but with spikey bits converted onto them by the gamer. Should he use the chaos codex just because he has added spikey bits to his standard marine chapter hes made up?

Using the SM codex for a CSM force is one of the rare ones I think is ok, as CSM minis have the same exact guns, so everythings obvious, and nothing is mixed (no DP's or anything) Plus you may want to have a chaos force that has recently fallen, so has newer tech, etc.

What if, they had there "chaos" army, but didnt say it was chaos, said it was a vanilla loyal chapter that liked spikey bits! Would you walk away from that game?


And on topic, thats what grinds my gears! Peoples aversion to some originality. I agree, I dislike the powergaming proxies (green spacewolves, etc) but in same cases, it makes sense!

[FrozenLaughs]

*People who freak-out because I just started playing, and don't know the rules verbatim.
*People who expect us to field $500+ worth of models to show exactly what we are fielding (I love this game but my money is tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggggggggght) Even if we just want to try something new or different in a codex. (WYSIWYG I guess)
*"Attacks" that clearly "target" my units when neither are truly the case. (Reavers conveniently driving over my Stealth Suits to hit them with baneblades, for example)

So far that's it, besides some of the rules>common sense arguments that the rulebooks make. For a new player I'm really enjoying this game, even when the people I get introduced to say "Oh, you play Tau? I'm sorry..."

[Grimtuff]

@ Asensur: Ok I see your point now, I'm just not very clear on the differences between proxy and count-as

Um, no. He isn't.

Using CSM (whilst sometimes frowned upon) as SW for example is an example of "counts as". Using Vayl (from Hordes Legion of Everblight) as the body for Lady Malys is a conversion, not counts as, not a proxy.

Using Space Marines as DE is a proxy, using a Coke bottle as a Carnifex is a proxy.

There is a HUGE difference

To give an example that can straddle both, using Bloodcrushers as TWC in a Gorewing army. This is counts as. Using the same miniatures with no conversion work in a standard SW army is a proxy.

*"Attacks" that clearly "target" my units when neither are truly the case. (Reavers conveniently driving over my Stealth Suits to hit them with baneblades, for example)

VANEblades. Best typo ever and the mental image that comes with it.

[TheConverter15]

@ Grimtuff: Thanks, I always get mixed up (no idea why though )

Agreed with the typo too, that is a good mental image

[FrozenLaughs]

I run into that with a lot of people because my CSM are so heavily converted (for example, one of my Chaos Lords has a Privateer Press Warmachine Cankerworm torso for legs) but I do always play them as CSM, I don't field the army as 13th company SW or vanilla Marines or anything like that, but some people get on me for having non GW bitz in the army. I don't see what the problem is in a friendly game, GW run tournaments are another matter however, I don't take that army to them.

I don't get why some people get like this. As long as you're using the preset stats present in your books for the models you field, who cares if an arm or a leg is different, or if the "elites" who've been in the army for 20+ years decided to weld some spikes on their armor? My Broadside leader has his Railguns on his arms, and smart missiles on his shoulders, 'ala the FW version. Will people get on me about that, cause I'm thinking about doing it to all my Broadsides?

[Asensur]

And on topic, thats what grinds my gears! Peoples aversion to some originality. I agree, I dislike the powergaming proxies (green spacewolves, etc) but in same cases, it makes sense!

An Adeptus Mechanicus army is original, a (chaos)Space Marine army it's not.

Spikes are not chaos only property, even having other armies' trophies is nice. Bersekers of Khorne and Plague marines, and everything with chaos symbols are for a CSM codex, not a SM one.

Of course, everything depends of each miniature and what it represents.

Using CSM as SW for example is an example of "counts as".

Using Space Marines as DE is a proxy.

There is a HUGE difference

There is something wrong in your comments

[FrozenLaughs]

VANEblades. Best typo ever and the mental image that comes with it.

Go Go Gadget Fatfingers! Although the new DE codex wouldn't surprise me if a full squad could spend 20 pts on a Baneblade wrecking ball they just towed around

[Grimtuff]

@ Grimtuff: Thanks, I always get mixed up (no idea why though )

No you haven't though, i'm saying Asensur has this idea that everything that is some form of modification, be it using a non-GW model as an equivelant analog (A Warjack as a Dreadnought for example), using a different codex for the same reason (Gorewing) or plonking a bunch of random rubbish on the table and using it as an army (Coke bottle as Carnifex (again)) are all proxies.

[TheConverter15]

Go Go Gadget Fatfingers! Although the new DE codex wouldn't surprise me if a full squad could spend 20 pts on a Baneblade wrecking ball they just towed around

Hmm, baneblade wrecking ball.... gargant with this upgrade anyone

[Grimtuff]

There is something wrong in your comments

Way to edit the quote...

Using the SW CODEX to represent another army, with it fully converted and represented and everything. This for example. Is a wonderful use of counts as, one of the best unwritten rules in 40k.

Using some random SM MODELS as a DE Army is a proxy.

If the latter needs explaining then there really is no hope...

[Lord Gabranth]

You know what really grinds my gears warseer?
Topics that go off topic.
Hmmmm.....what seems to have happend here?

[Asensur]

This for example.

What you see is a space wolf "count-as", what i see is a Khorne Lord with space wolves trophies "proxied" to be a space Wolf.

As I told before to TheConverter15, i don't want to argue about this. So this is my last reponse, whatever anyone says after this:

You have your right to decide which army to play with and which opponents to face against.

As do I.

[TheConverter15]

whoops umm, I hate people who stare if you don't fit the generic gamer type, soo annoying

@Asenur: I too didn't want any conflict was just interested on your side of the arguement

[Grimtuff]

What you see is a space wolf "count-as", what i see is a Khorne Lord with space wolves trophies "proxied" to be a space Wolf.

As I told before to TheConverter15, i don't want to argue about this. So this is my last reponse, whatever anyone says after this:

You have your right to decide which army to play with and which opponents to face against.

As do I.

"I'm wrong, but I can't be arsed to argue. So i'm going home"

[FrozenLaughs]

No you haven't though, i'm saying Asensur has this idea that everything that is some form of modification, be it using a non-GW model as an equivelant analog (A Warjack as a Dreadnought for example), using a different codex for the same reason (Gorewing) or plonking a bunch of random rubbish on the table and using it as an army (Coke bottle as Carnifex (again)) are all proxies.

Agreed- Proxy: A person authorized to act for another, or the written authorization to act for another. Synonyms: alternate, assignee, backup, intermediary, representative, stand-in, substitute, surrogate

[Grimtuff]

Agreed- Proxy: A person authorized to act for another, or the written authorization to act for another. Synonyms: alternate, assignee, backup, intermediary, representative, stand-in, substitute, surrogate

Exactly.

I'm using this converted giant Battlesuit as a counts as Hammerhead. This is not a proxy.

Me plonking a selection of piles of DVDs in my IG army as Chimeras are proxies.