Hiding on a planet's template?

[hopeless]

My gm, who is also a player, is always hiding on the planets template. First of all, is this legal. Second of all, how do I counter this tactic?

What he does is wait for me to get close than rush a alpha strike on me. He always has high ordinances, both in torps and fighters/bombers.

He is using a tau fleet with special house rules so he ignore gravity hooks for additional 10 point cost to escorts.
He is also stating that turrets can either attack bombers or give negitives to the bomber attack rolls for number of dice(if anyone can show me where this rule is in the new set, please b/c everything I read says that it can do both).

I am using a combine Mechanicus, imperial navy, and space marine force with an inquisitor leading.
He also won't let me have mid-max carriers like the Nemesis battleship or the Jovian battle cruiser. Most quasi-legal ships that are from semi-official sources are allowed.

This is a campaign with other players who know barely anything about the game.

Please, I need some help and advice.

[AsleepByDay]

Turrets always give negatives to bomber rolls no matter what, nothing anywhere says they don't, so the guy is lying.
If the ship's turrets have fired at torpedoes in that turn already (or if you want them to later that turn) then they can't try to shoot any of the bombers down that turn but those bombers still make their attacks a minus your turrets.

How exactly does he hide on the planet template? his ships can't stand still on the template they have to move their minimum distance.
Normally if a ship travels over the template it is either destroyed, assumed to have moved over or under the template or entered the planets low orbit table if it has one.

Given that you are all new players I'd recommend dropping all house rules and only using official ships until you all understand the rules correctly.
With respect to the planet I'd suggest that ships aren't allowed to move onto the template this is by far the easiest.

[Exitas-Acta-Probat]

i would asumse hed burn retros ontop of the planet template. but you could still shoot him - hes over/under it, not inside it,
that aside, what he said ^^

[hopeless]

Turrets always give negatives to bomber rolls no matter what, nothing anywhere says they don't, so the guy is lying.
If the ship's turrets have fired at torpedoes in that turn already (or if you want them to later that turn) then they can't try to shoot any of the bombers down that turn but those bombers still make their attacks a minus your turrets.

Can you point me to where exactly it says this b/c he doesn't believe me when I tell him. I use to play with an experience group with me just going with the flow and I have played demos at conventions. So I have some idea about the rules but it is a kind of fuzzy b/c everyone else there where the rule nazis for me.

How exactly does he hide on the planet template? his ships can't stand still on the template they have to move their minimum distance.

He is saying the the gravity well allows the ships to stop moving.

Normally if a ship travels over the template it is either destroyed, assumed to have moved over or under the template or entered the planets low orbit table if it has one.

Again where does it exactly says this, b/c I told him this as well but he doesn't believe me.

Given that you are all new players I'd recommend dropping all house rules and only using official ships until you all understand the rules correctly.
With respect to the planet I'd suggest that ships aren't allowed to move onto the template this is by far the easiest.

He claims to have played it a lot with these rules being legit and legal with the other groups he played with previously. He claims that these are officially what is allowed. He claims he knows more about gothic then all of us combined.
Unfortunately for me, I joined this game late and what everyone else, who is playing, knows is just what the gm told them.

[hopeless]

He also using the planet template to block all shoots and ordnance except for fighter/bombers.

And the retros are necessary, based on him.

[KaldCB]

To be honest, he sounds like a dick!

Forcing the use of house rules that benefit him against new players is really lame, same as using "hiding" in a planet stuff when trying to get new players.

Now to some more constructive conversation

You should get him to show you where it says that turrets that shoot at bombers dont reduse the number of attacks, he will have to look a VERY long time to find that.

Planets dont work like he says ether. but if you cant change his mind, there is not much you can do except stop playing him.

Gravity well enables his ship to turn before movment for free, and after movment. there is nothing there about not moving.

planets do block los if you are behind them, but not if you are on top of them.
And fighters/bombers er destroyed if they travel into the planet, so he have the rules mixed up. (intentional or not)

[Easy E]

Or you could play without planets on the board.

[KaldCB]

Or you could play without planets on the board.

Was actually going to suggest that too.

[Vaaish]

He's playing dead wrong.

Can you point me to where exactly it says this b/c he doesn't believe me when I tell him. I use to play with an experience group with me just going with the flow and I have played demos at conventions. So I have some idea about the rules but it is a kind of fuzzy b/c everyone else there where the rule nazis for me.

P.30 under the section Vs. Ships. There is no exception stated to the -1 attack per turret rule as it it part of the bombers attack. P. 29 details the rules stating you can either attack torpedoes or AC with turrets each turn but does not negate the -1 to attack runs.

If he is telling you he can shoot at any ordnance and that he has to choose between shooting at them or getting -1 attack per turret, he hasn't read the rules or is making crap up. Show him what the rules say and if he still says he can do that MAKE him show you where it says that. The burden of proof is on him, not you.

He is saying the the gravity well allows the ships to stop moving.

This is correct. You can declare yourself to be in high orbit when inside the gravity well where you don't have to move although you then count as defenses which makes you a sitting duck.

Again where does it exactly says this, b/c I told him this as well but he doesn't believe me.

p.45 details the effects of the planet templates. It says you may pass "through" the planet template. The only things destroyed by touching a planet are torpedo salvos and hulked ships.

By RAW he is correct, the template blocks everything except AC (this includes his own ships firing!) However, the 2010 FAQ has clarified this to allow you to shoot at ships ON the template but not BEHIND the template. I've quoted the relevant section:

Ships on a Planetary Template: When a ship‟s stem is actually on a planetary template (as opposed to behind it), the template does not block its line of sight or any ships line of sight to it. If multiple ships are on a planetary template, they can all see each other.
A ship counts as being upon a planetary template if its stem touches the template, not merely if it is in base contact or if its base partially overlaps the template.
Torpedoes on a Planetary Template: Torpedoes are only destroyed when they come into contact with the template‟s edge, either when launching them toward the planet or from it by ships in high orbit upon the template itself. It is possible to launch torpedoes while on a planetary template but they will be removed when they touch its edge.

[hopeless]

Thanks for you're guys help. I'll be sure to do what you said. B/c the last couple of battles against him was bs. Hopefully, this will allow me to negate the last devastating battle. Even the one before where he did the same thing and I won was bull. There isn't any fun in fighting when there is no real tactical decision to make b/c their is only one real response to the situation (if you want any chance to win). Come in, take the alpha strike and hope you make it to the other side to hurt him back.

[Vaaish]

If he continues to do that, then use any escorts you have to screen your ships and soak his alpha strike. Then just move directly on top the template withing 15cm of his ships. At this point it won't matter if you are abeam since he counts as defenses so you use that column. if most of your fleet is within 15cm you'll also negate any BM you place. (shift one right to capital ships closing and then left to the defenses for being within 15cm) If you lock on while doing this even a s6 battery on a lunar will get 5 dice.

[Noir]

To clear the situation, is it like this what's going on?

[hopeless]

No, he is on the planet template and saying nothing can hit him but fighter/bombers. And when I get to about 40cm from the planet, he moves out of the template at full movement and attacks me with and alpha strike including torps. This makes sure he has the first strike with all of his weapons even through I have longer range.

I would prefer the scenario you described. At least then I could have the option to try to outmaneuver him around the planet.

[Noir]

No, he is on the planet template and saying nothing can hit him but fighter/bombers.

Easy. He's plain incorrect in that case.
EDIT: See the last quote of Vaaish for the updated rulebook passage.

The template acts as a barrier of sight. Like a plateau. As long as it's in between both of you and no one can draw a line of sight you cannot shoot at each other.
If one enters the template, he can see and shoot you as well as you can aim at him.

Torpedoes contacting the template ('s border) are lost. AC may pass normal.

One may hold position on the planet's template as well as in the whole range of the gravity zone without burning retros. Doing so one coun't as 'defense' for the sake of the gunnery table, like any other stationary target. Lot's of shooting dice.

Anything unclear?

[Noir]

To be complete:

his ships can't stand still on the template they have to move their minimum distance.

Yes he can. Stationary target then.

Normally if a ship travels over the template it is either destroyed, assumed to have moved over or under the template or entered the planets low orbit table if it has one.

Incorrect. Don't get mixed up with the low orbit rules. You land/crash if you touch the low orbit's planetary surface. RB p48.
Salud

[horizon]

Your gm is a real a**h*l*. Kick him him round several times and then sent him to this thread.

Vaaish & Noir are giving correct answers.

HAving the planet template rule can happen as this was not very clear in the rules.

However what he says about bombers/turrets is a lot of crap and I would not use his Tau House rules. Grav Hooks is essential to those ships/fleet as a race. Furthermore: 10pts is on the high side for a grav hook on top of all the blasphemy.

He is also a ***** to use his own house rules but not let you use other house/unofficial rules.

[tarrask]

My one advise to all of this is... dont let one loser (who must cheat to win so he has some validation in his life) ruin your experience with this game. I understand that he might be the circle of your local group, but he is a cancer. Find a couple friends outside of his zone of control and play the game correctly. You will have a great time with a less drama. Right after this happens.. all those people following this DB will want to join your group, because it is more fun with less baggage.

[fracas]

no house rules is the easiest way to go

against his tau in planet template, consider ramming and/or boarding him.


btw, yes i think the guy is a douche as well

[wilsongrahams]

You could also wait at the far end of the battlefield cruising back and forth, and shoot down all his ordnance with your weapons. You waiting in space is no different or less boring than him waiting on a planet or behind it. If he's behind it, outflank him at range, and just refuse to join battle on his terms. No navy has ever joined battle at a disadvantage if it could be avoided.

I understand you want to get into the action, but I would hang back and use fighters and assault boats til he leaves the gravity. If a player wants a boring game, give him one and he'll probably realise that not everyone will play to his tune all the time.

As for house rules etc - disagree to allow them all, or allow any, no picking and choosing on his part based on what benefits him or not. As covered already he's wrong on a few things too.

You could also demand a 3d planet and bring one along so you have one to use, then he can't sit on it, but only count as being in it's gravity well. He can still sit still but isn't as invulnerable.

[ehlijen]

How does he always manage to have a planet in/near his deployment zone to sit on?

Planets are a bit broken as terrain. Out of all the celestial phenomena they simply offere the most benefits to the player in the best position to claim them. Outside of scenarios requiring them, they should be kept to the sides of the board and out of they way if possible, or at least about equidistant from both deployment zones.

Also, if he likes sitting on planets and somehow always has one, make sure you also have one. And sit on it with nova cannon. The imperial navy is better at planet squatting than the Tau at the end of the day. This is only in case all else fails. The games will be terriboring, but hopefully he'll see the wrongness in abusing the planet rules.