Epic Target Demographic

[Max Jet]

Oh man... sorry... but buddy..

I get what you are trying to tell me.

I know that there are hundreds more indication towards your point. But you are stating a giant list of things that are backed up by only one single hard fact and that is the interview with Rick Priestley. Although you are most certainly right you cannot claim all these things as firm as you do. There really needs to be more facts in order to back up your position.

As it stands you yourself shouldn't be so sure about it, because in the end all you have is one interview and a single incomparable multi million manufacturer nobody exactly knows what made it as succesful as it is. Don't take it as an insult, but I really feel a little bit treated like a ***** when someone tries to convince me by just stating his view over and over. I have given up convincing you, because it is impossible. I have no hard facts and I am wrong with a 99% propability. But in order to be convinced there needs to be something more.

Please understand that I agree with your words and thank you for your time, it's just the repetitive nature of this, that irritates me a little bit.

[Chaos and Evil]

...buddy....

you are stating a giant list of things that are backed up by only one single hard fact and that is the interview with Rick Priestley. Although you are most certainly right you cannot claim all these things as firm as you do. There really needs to be more facts in order to back up your position.

As it stands you yourself shouldn't be so sure about it, because in the end all you have is one interview

Besides the everybody else who's commented in this thread, there are several ex-GWHQ/Studio people on this forum, like BlongBling and Yabbadabba, who say the same things as me. I'm not just drawing from one interview, that's just one good example of hundreds I could draw from.

You admit that you are wrong with a 99% probability... so does that mean that you still believe that 40k is designed for adults, despite all the evidence to the contrary?


Also, you totally dodged my questioning about your raising of Jungian archetypes as evidence of an intended adult audience for GW's Core Games, and instead just said "you're being irritating now". That's not how debate is supposed to work, buddy.

So, considering how basically every children's product out there works with archetypes, how does GW's use of archetypes in your opinion make their game systems adult-intended?

[Max Jet]

Oh dear...

You got my point wrong. I was stating the adressing of archetypes not as the reason for 40k being aimed at adults (I absolutely don't know where I said something even remotely sounding like that because it is absolutely not my opinion) but as the reason for it's success.

Again

I was taking the archetypus point as a reason for 40ks success. That was just there to answer your point, that GW doesn't address individuals. I think this proves that it does.

You got it wrong and I cannot even see why.

Furthermore.
Point me to 2 interviews with a Game designer not being part of the GW design team, looking at the Epic ruleset and saying "Yeah this is clearly and adult ruleset." and you may consider me convinced.

[Chaos and Evil]

Oh dear...

Stop being condecending, if you please.

You got my point wrong. I was stating the adressing of archetypes not as the reason for 40k being aimed at adults (I absolutely don't know where I said something even remotely sounding like that because it is absolutely not my opinion) but as the reason for it's success.

Okay fair enough.

I'd disagree and say that Gw is successful because they had first mover advantage granting them an unparalleled level of market penetration, combined with a consistent approach to product development and promotion (Of which the use of archetypes is a small but significant part).

You got it wrong and I cannot even see why.

Perhaps because the debate at hand is about the target demographic of Epic, and you moved into discussing another subject entirely?

Point me to 2 interviews with a Game designer not being part of the GW design team, looking at the Epic ruleset and saying "Yeah this is clearly and adult ruleset." and you may consider me convinced.

Game designers do not make a habit of promoting their competitors' products; That's an impossible task.

[Hena]

I have little to say, overall I agree with almost everything of your post except small little things that bother me. Is there really a challenging difference in picking your units beforehand and carefully planning an all eventuality army and having basically comparable forces you need to carefully move and prepare on the battlefield itself?

I think this is interesting point in this.

I don't think that 40k allows you to play that much actual game. In most games the armies start at firing range while epic does not. Meaning that armies in 40k are 24" apart which is the range of bolter. In epic the range is 120cm while normal weapon (such as autocannon / lascannon / missile launcher) have range 45cm. This means that armies have to start maneuvering to reach that same situation.

Also in 40k the speed / shots fired is very small, unlike in epic. Most units move 6" and can get fired. Epic units can move from 90cm or 60cm if wanting to fire back (assuming mech infantry which is very common in epic) between getting shot. The range between armies was 24" so thats 4 shots and epics 120cm 1 or 2 shots (for mech infantry). This means that epic requires active maneuvering as opposed to 40k where that cannot much happen.

Then there is the complexity of rules in general which doesn't imply good design.

As to army selection. Epic armies don't have any one set of best army combo forces. Most units effect depend on how you use them in field and with what other forces you have. 40k doesn't have this much (at least last time I played which granted was last edition).

[Max Jet]

My tone was brazen, yet not unprovoked. I don't know how often you hear this, but you and Yabbadabba have this "Know it all, so please be quit and learn" kind of tone, when asked for backup facts is met with. "You cannot ask for this kind of information". This will always result in verbal conflicts.

Let us collect the facts.

The GW design team created the Epic Armageddon ruleset with an adult audience in mind.

The 40k ruleset is highly succesfull in the kids and teen demographic area.

It is debatable wether the audience really thinks of the Armageddon ruleset as more adult approachable.

It is debatable wether the younger target audience is more happy with a 40k ruleset than the epic ruleset. (Let's face it that large portions of newcomers doen't even get to know the Specialist Game products first hand)

The impact of the modeling and painting aspect on it's target audience of a certain wargame is debatable.

The impact of the ruleset concerning it's succes on a given target is unclear.

There is no solid comparison on the wargaming market, hence you cannot say a certain approach succeded, because the next question would be compared to whom?

There are so many uncertainties that it is impossible to end this with a definite statement.

[Chaos and Evil]

My tone was brazen, yet not unprovoked.

No, your tone was condescending, personally insulting, and was unnessesary.

I don't know how often you hear this, but you and Yabbadabba have this "Know it all, so please be quit and learn" kind of tone, when asked for backup facts is met with. "You cannot ask for this kind of information". This will always result in verbal conflicts.

Well to be fair, Yabba is ex GWHQ and I'm the guy who tried to buy a licence to support Epic (With all the research that implies), so really, we do know a damn sight more about the internal workings of GW than the average forum member.

Let us collect the facts.

Some more facts for you:

- Rick P, the creator of Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 is on record as saying it was designed for children.

- Jervis J is on record as saying that the SG's in general, and Epic and Warmaster in particular, were designed for an older audience than the core games.

- The core games all share certain rules features (Many Special Rules, many pages of rules, simplistic gameplay style) that are not shared by Epic and Warmaster, implying a different design approach.

- "If we made Epic a core game, we'd have to change its rules style" - Something Jervis once said to me personally.

It is debatable wether the younger target audience is more happy with a 40k ruleset than the epic ruleset. (Let's face it that large portions of newcomers doen't even get to know the Specialist Game products first hand)

I can tell you this from personal experience: Kids don't "get" Epic. The things that are fun about it to an adult (Tactical complexity, simple rules) , don't really appeal to them.

They do "get" 40k, and they have a lot of fun playing it.


Now, you apparently haven't played Epic, so I'm curious how you think that it could appeal primarily to children, considering your lack of experience.

There are so many uncertainties that it is impossible to end this with a definite statement.

GW were the first company to really target kids with their products, and they were the first company to really make it big. Seems like there's probably a bit of a correlation there, doesn't it? *shrug*

[eriochrome]

I think we use finer graining now in these demographics. Core games is probably more tween boys (toy soldiers) and teenage boys (edgy enough imagery to annoy the parents).

My daughter has like 3 pokomon cards that a neighbor gave her who is only like 1 year older. I was asking my wife about it and she said that they play with the cards (look and trade them) but do not play the game.

[Easy E]

I don't think Epic is aimed at young players because of the simplicity.... it was mentioned elsewhere that many young players love all the complex fiddly rules of warhammer and 40k (I know I did back when I was twelve) but older players crave balance and fluidity, I speak in generalisations but I think that is generally the case with SG, simplicity isn't typically appealing to younger players in my experience....

don't get me started on 6mm being way more difficult to convert and paint.....

This. Rick Priestley is on record when designing Blackpowder and Hail Ceasr saying that young gamers prefer complex and intricate solutions to game design problems, while older gamers prefer simpler and abstract rules.

However, I think Epic was designed with Jervis and his gaming group in the studio as the demographic.

[eriochrome]

Taken from the GW General discussion thread as this seems to be an interesting point.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=62

All the marketing done for each of the gaming systems of GW aside, as well as the prices. Who do you think Epic Armageddon is intended for?

My personal opinion is that this is a perfect game for beginners, less so for adults.
Here are my reasons.

1. The models are easier to paint. because of the size you only need to apply basic painting techniques. Painting standard across epic forces doesn't vary as much as in any 28mm wargame.

2. Conversion work is so difficult, that in the most cases it is not even applied. Having ranks after ranks of infantry demotivates any attempt to work with poses, while the large size of 28mm actually encourages it.

3 The models have less parts most of the time.

- you see painting and conversion works have to be learned with year long training. In Epic the difference isn't that visible, engulfing the work of beginners faster into the community standard

4 You can have large armies much quicker than in a 28mm game, getting the satisfaction of having a recognisable force faster than in a larger scaled wargame.

This is all about the models and not the game. In modeling, there are two points, skill and time required. While adults can develop more skill in conversion and painting by making that the focus of their hobby, they often cannot put in the time that a young person can to build up the full army. I know I have a lot less time for this stuff as an adult than I did as a kid. Adults will also be a lot more critical of their work making it more time consuming to get a good 28 mm force on the field compared to a kid.

There are plenty of adults who build, convert and paint some 28 mm minis but do not play the games since the rule problems really get to you over time. I think this is not the case for 6 mm since they are much more playing pieces than models.

[eriochrome]

I commonly see people talking about list building as tactics. Just today 3++ blog had a claim that 40K has tactics then they talked about putting certain unit types in their lists specifically to influence pregame setup. Another post I saw today started the tactics discussion by listing their range weapons from their list.

[Chaos and Evil]

I commonly see people talking about list building as tactics. Just today 3++ blog had a claim that 40K has tactics then they talked about putting certain unit types in their lists specifically to influence pregame setup. Another post I saw today started the tactics discussion by listing their range weapons from their list.

Indeed, as I've noted, 40k as a rules system runs on "rails".

Many, perhaps most, of 40k's players mistake its extreme amount of strategic options for tactical depth, when it really has very little in-game tactical complexity. So "Tactica" lessons are generally limited to basic movement tips, and army list construction suggestions.

[Max Jet]

...personally insulting...

I am curious on what part of my post you considered to be insulting, even more so 'personally'

we do know a damn sight more about the internal workings of GW than the average forum member.

And with that you have proven my point. Did you miss the part where I told you about the lack of facts? I hear the line "Trust me I know it better than you." quite often. How is that an argument? Even if you'd be the head of the design team yourself, that doesn't make an argument out of this statement. Just because you are someone in the know doesn't mean that you can end the discussion with "I know it and you don't and no... I will not derail into further informations because they are not meant for you." If you are so sure about knowing it better but adamantly refuse to hand out more facts, than why are you entering discussions on a forum full of uninformed member. The only way to change an uninformed member into an informed one is to provide him with facts, not by repeating "I know it better." over and over.

Now, you apparently haven't played Epic, so I'm curious how you think that it could appeal primarily to children, considering your lack of experience.

Wrong assumption.

I have played Epic 40k (not armageddon) as a 10 year old. It was the favourite game of me and two of my school mates. We proxied the hell out of this game as we weren't able to afford a whole army at those prices.

Epic brought me back into Games Workshop after military service. But rather than being dissapointed with the lack of Epic in stores I tried 40k for a change.

Some more facts for you:

- Rick P, the creator of Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 is on record as saying it was designed for children.

- Jervis J is on record as saying that the SG's in general, and Epic and Warmaster in particular, were designed for an older audience than the core games.

- The core games all share certain rules features (Many Special Rules, many pages of rules, simplistic gameplay style) that are not shared by Epic and Warmaster, implying a different design approach.

- "If we made Epic a core game, we'd have to change its rules style" - Something Jervis once said to me personally.

All of these are the same fact. By stretching them it doesn't underline your point any more than the words of Rick Priestley allready did. The design team created it with an adult target audience in mind. That was the fact I stated. How does these words of the design team enhance this here? (self quote)
--->

The GW design team created the Epic Armageddon ruleset with an adult audience in mind.

I strongly get the feeling, that you are not even reading my posts entirely.

GW were the first company to really target kids with their products, and they were the first company to really make it big. Seems like there's probably a bit of a correlation there, doesn't it? *shrug*

There is a difference in 'first' and 'only'. 'The first' would back up your view. The 'only' is to uncertain to derive data from it.

I know I have a lot less time for this stuff as an adult than I did as a kid. Adults will also be a lot more critical of their work making it more time consuming to get a good 28 mm force on the field compared to a kid.

By that logic would you assume, that a low model count, highly flexible game like Warmachine targets adults more than teens? I would certainly like to see Warmachine target demographics as this would strongly back up 'Chaos and Evil's point.

[eriochrome]

I know that YTTH talks about the "skills" of good 40K players is to tell the bad from the good units in the codexes. Ofcourse if the game and balance was done properly those two items would not exist and at worst list building would be about optimizing merry synergy and army balance as opposed to spamming the same point optimized unit over and over again.

PS I do not know anything about the warmachine so cannot answer as to its tactical depth or target audience but it might also have the problem of too many rules since they also make army books now.

[Chaos and Evil]

I am curious on what part of my post you considered to be insulting, even more so 'personally'

"Oh man... sorry... but buddy.."
"Oh dear..."

If you can't see how that is an insulting tone, then there's little I can do to show you.

And with that you have proven my point.

*shrug*
In many cases we're bound by NDA so as not to be able to give more info than we have.
We can, in general, only point to publically available data.

Wrong assumption.

I have played Epic 40k (not armageddon) as a 10 year old.

Epic 40k is a completely different game to Epic Armageddon (EA was a ground-up re-write).

You haven't played today's Epic (Released 2004), and you're therefore saying "Epic is better designed for kids than adults" without any kind of experience to back it up.

The design team created it (Epic) with an adult target audience in mind. That was the fact I stated. How does these words of the design team enhance this here? (self quote)

Because they also point out that Epic was created with an older demographic in mind than the Core Games.

The very obvious inference, which you've apparently completely missed, being that the Core Games, since they're not designed for adults, are designed for children.

By that logic would you assume, that a low model count, highly flexible game like Warmachine targets adults more than teens? I would certainly like to see Warmachine target demographics as this would strongly back up 'Chaos and Evil's point.

Warmachine certainly does present itself as a game suitable for an older demographic.

================================================


I've quoted the words of the guy who created Warhammer & 40k, saying they're designed for children, and you disregard them.

I've quoted the words of GW senior Games Dev. Jervis, saying 40k is designed for children, and you disregard them.

I've noted that ex-GWHQ guys like Yabbadabba & Blongbling say Warhammer & 40k are designed for children, and you disregard them.

There's that oft-repeated quote from GW Chief Exec. Tom Kirby, to the tune of "Games Workshop is in the business of selling toy soldiers to children", but doubtless you disregard that too.

I've pointed out that everyone else commenting in this thread agrees with me, and you disregard them.



Honestly, I don't see what facts beyond that I can give you.

[kyussinchains]

I think the OP's original point has been answered with a reasonable degree of agreement and now this thread is descending into pointless arguments and willy-waving.....

[Chaos and Evil]

My willy is Epic in scale.

[eriochrome]

What features make epic more tactical than 40k?

The things I see from my very limited experience would be alternating activations, more movement levels for an activation, overwatch, crossfire, supporting fire, and blast markers.

[Spectrar Ghost]

One I see missing from the list is the much higher ratio of movement to weapons range. Most weapons are in the 30-45cm range. Infantry can move 30cm and shoot, 45cm without shooting. They can also effectively Assault (firefight) at 30cm range (move +15cm).
Mech Inf. tend to move 60cm and shoot, 90cm without. Mech forces usually have a 50cm charge range if embarked (transport move +5cm disembark +15cm FF range). The fact that Mech Forces can assault further than a typical heavy weapon can shoot means that you can not count on getting even one shot in before being assaulted unless you properly support your troops.

[Nat B]

Is there really a challenging difference in picking your units beforehand and carefully planning an all eventuality army and having basically comparable forces you need to carefully move and prepare on the battlefield itself?

YES!

This is the key point, in the second case your opponent can affect your choices, in the first case he cannot.

40K is about listbuilding, your opponents tactical skills do not affect that.

Epic:A is about tactical manouvere and making the right choice on the table, your opponents skill and choices massively affect that.


If you are playing a game where 90% of your tactical choices are made before you reach the table, where is the gameplay between the players? Where is the play/counterplay? There is none, this is why 40K is refered to as a 'game on rails'. Epic is about playing your opponent.


EDIT:
To add, there was a 40k tourney at my FLGS last weekend, on tuesday evening there was a fair bit of discussion about it. Every single conversation about game outcomes was dominated by what was in the list, not by how the list was played. Think back to all the conversations youve had about 40k games, Im finding it hard to remember a single mention of a tactical play on the table, its all "the guy with the 4 hydras won that game", "the ork hoard had too many bodies to kill", there is never "I got outthought, he flanked my assault, took out my support and caught my guys in crossfire" that is what you hear after Epic:A games 99% of the time.