Tyranid Codex concervative revision

[Panzer MkIV]

Like many of my fellow Tyranid players I found the latest codex somewhat lacking in some areas (to put it mildly )

So these last few weeks I've been tinkering away with the codex in order to make it a bit more balanced internally, externally and to circumvent that awfull "FAQ" we got but above all to make it it fun again to pick a list with the models and theme you like. The first draft is now complete and is being distilled in a Word Document. The Troops are now ready. I'll try to get the entire revision up at the end of the week: Heavy Support is next.

Comments and critique welcome

Edit: added Heavy Support and made some minor alterations to Troops

Edit 2: added Elites and fixed some typos in Heavy Support

Edit 3: added HQ and Fast Attack

Edit 4: put up revised versions of HQ, Troops, Fast Attack and Heavy Support

[azimaith]

First, I like the warriors at t5 W2, I would also like to see s5 because frankly, they're huge compared to other critters. I would also prefer to see their points cost lowered and their innate load out be 2 pairs of scything talons, with the option to pay points for the devourer. I think its best to work from the cheapest possible standpoint and then buy your way up from there, seems less clunky.

Genestealers look fine, the termagants look great, WoN, hell yeah! Now if only we could combine it with pods. (I'd much prefer pods that didn't stick around honestly, they just drop you, grant say, 5+ cover on turn 1, then play no further part. Then you could really work up the imagery of spores falling like rain in an unrelenting assault from above.

Hormagaunts look fine provided bounding leap is basically old dex leaping.

Rippers look viable with eternal warrior.

As for pods, I can't see paying the points for most of the extra guns at BS2.

No retreat rules. I don't like them. I think they shouldn't be suffering no retreat unless they're being outnumbered, I also think the problem with No Retreat wound spilling onto other models needs to be addressed, Tyranids are a list of combined assaults, its vital, and should not be punished.

Without Number, the same problem from the old dex is still here, without the ability to come on from closer board edges you'll end up with squads too far back to play any part in the battle, not to mention out of synapse. They should be able to come in from board edges dependent on the turn. IE Turn 3-4=short edges or your edge. Turn 5+, all board edges.

[Thrax]

I like your efforts so far. I like your "non-invasive" approach to changing the codex without completely overhauling the entire book. Lately I've been reviewing quite a few Tyrandid fandexes in an attempt to come up with a balanced yet playable version. Luckily I play with a large group of players willing to alter not just the codices but the rules as well.

However, I've been crunching a lot of numbers to come up with more reasonable point values/ abilities for Tyranid units, relative to each other and other armies. Since this segment of yours only addresses troops, I'll just share those:
~ agree on the T5 W2 warrior, & like your dispersal of support weaponry
~ would not restrict the number required for a Broodlord, & would pay more for flesh hooks (2-3 pts)
~ dropped the Termagant to 4 pts; not warm to the WoN mechanic though
~ dropped Hormagant to 5 pts but retained the WS 3
~ love your treatment of Ripper Swarms & especially the Endless Tide rule!
~ like the simple extra toughness of your Mycetic Spore (ours was at T5)

Like your spod capacity too. Not as fond of leaping...seems a little too powerful. The Synapse rule is understandable - we won't use it because we've already changed the 5th Ed. rule on multiple units all suffering from the same combat (er...hel-LO GW?).

Great job so far and nice lay-out. Looking forward to see how much the rest of your work jives with mine.

[Hedgehobbit]

I would change the Synapse so that it doesn't grant Fearless. Instead, all units in synapse range automatically pass any morale checks (or maybe can choose to pass or fail like papa smurf)

[RyVin]

First Hello I'm Back. What you have here seems to be part of the past with the present not a bad ideal. I wait to see what you have plan for the Pyrovore.I was crazy about the model and bought 3 before I got the codex and then got heartbroken! The thing is it should of had something on the lines of a Melta Cannon;but no GW gives us this wimpy acid spray. Which I guess i'll have to deal with. I NOW use the models as a Prime Bio-vore. points are twice that of a normal Bio-vore but here's why BS5 WS4 S5 T6 W3 I6 A4 Ld10 Sv3+ plus his cannon fire's 48 inches and is a barrage3 weapon this thing shoots a harden shell projectial or if you like a cannon ball S9 AP3 so it had to cost something. Oh yes it is a monsterous creature and is Synapse,plus I must have 2 full broods of normal Bio-vores in the group for everyone of these. So I normally only bring 1 of these beast in. Well later maybe

[Jim]

First Hello I'm Back. What you have here seems to be part of the past with the present not a bad ideal. I wait to see what you have plan for the Pyrovore.I was crazy about the model and bought 3 before I got the codex and then got heartbroken! The thing is it should of had something on the lines of a Melta Cannon;but no GW gives us this wimpy acid spray. Which I guess i'll have to deal with. I NOW use the models as a Prime Bio-vore. points are twice that of a normal Bio-vore but here's why BS5 WS4 S5 T6 W3 I6 A4 Ld10 Sv3+ plus his cannon fire's 48 inches and is a barrage3 weapon this thing shoots a harden shell projectial or if you like a cannon ball S9 AP3 so it had to cost something. Oh yes it is a monsterous creature and is Synapse,plus I must have 2 full broods of normal Bio-vores in the group for everyone of these. So I normally only bring 1 of these beast in. Well later maybe

Good to see you back - I'm hoping you dust off Codex: Space Manatees soon... Back OT... Liking the ideas you have come up with so far.

Jim

[Panzer MkIV]

~ would not restrict the number required for a Broodlord, & would pay more for flesh hooks (2-3 pts)

I restricted the Broodlord in order to avoid min-maxing the unit and spamming of an upgrade that's essentially a Independant Character in Genestealer-heavy armies

~ dropped the Termagant to 4 pts; not warm to the WoN mechanic though

I took the route of simply making it better and added fleet so that even with the point cost and the changes to No retreat in synapse it becomes a rather fine tarpit unit

~ dropped Hormagant to 5 pts but retained the WS 3

I upped it's WS because it didn't feel right that a Tyranid whose job is to assault is only WS 3. Incidently it makes the unit more resillient in CC too

Not as fond of leaping...seems a little too powerful.

I understand your concern but it's an ability the Tyranids had since the 3rd edition Black 'dex list (and propably even before that) and I never heard any complaints from my opponents during 3rd and 4th edition. Besides it gives a boost of speed to the army and makes CC-warriors a bit more viable. With the latest codex it seems that Tyranids are one of the slowest armies in existance because of a distinct lack of Transports

Great job so far and nice lay-out. Looking forward to see how much the rest of your work jives with mine.

Thanks, Like to hear your opinion on the Heavy support section

First, I like the warriors at t5 W2, I would also like to see s5 because frankly, they're huge compared to other critters. I would also prefer to see their points cost lowered and their innate load out be 2 pairs of scything talons, with the option to pay points for the devourer. I think its best to work from the cheapest possible standpoint and then buy your way up from there, seems less clunky.

I think that the size compared to other creatures is already taken into account with the extra T, W and A they get compared to genestealers for example.The main problem with warriors is survival not their cc- abilty so I left the S as it was.

Hormagaunts look fine provided bounding leap is basically old dex leaping.

It isn't but check the revised PDF

As for pods, I can't see paying the points for most of the extra guns at BS2.

Actually me neither But I didn't really know what to do with it so I left it as it was

No retreat rules. I don't like them. I think they shouldn't be suffering no retreat unless they're being outnumbered, I also think the problem with No Retreat wound spilling onto other models needs to be addressed, Tyranids are a list of combined assaults, its vital, and should not be punished.

The revised Synapse rule is basicly a band-aid until 6th edition arrives. No Retreat as it stand now is just a firm kick and bodyslam in the gonads for tyranids right now. This seems like to best way to aleviate the pain without discarding the rule (IMO ofcourse) but I'll check that out

Without Number, the same problem from the old dex is still here, without the ability to come on from closer board edges you'll end up with squads too far back to play any part in the battle, not to mention out of synapse. They should be able to come in from board edges dependent on the turn. IE Turn 3-4=short edges or your edge. Turn 5+, all board edges.

To be honest I never used WoN myself during 4th edition so I wasn't really aware of these problems although the ability to come back through a Trygon Tunnel helps somewhat. But that's little comfort indeed if you don't use one. I'll see into it but I like tour idea

Sorry for the belated reply and update but real life got in the way. You know how it is sometimes

Heavy Support is now up

[Thrax]

Ahhhh....Heavy Support. It seems we have had similar inspiration.
~Carnifex is on the money with the upgraded WS and Initiative as well as the armored shell option. Also have the same for crushing claws...bravo! Same w/ OOE, except thinking now he should maybe have a slightly higher leadership?
~like the spore options for the biovore without making it too powerful (since they can't change during a game)
~my Tyrannofex is base 225 pts with a 15 pt rupture cannon option, but not sure the value of your Biological Warfare rule. A tyrannofex can already shoot 3 weapons, right?
~I think assaulting from subterranean deployment may be a bit too strong even if very characterful. Maybe a halfway measure, such as granting the unit a 4+ cover save on the arrival turn and can still run but not assault.

Keep up the good work!

[Panzer MkIV]

Ahhhh....Heavy Support. It seems we have had similar inspiration.
~Carnifex is on the money with the upgraded WS and Initiative as well as the armored shell option. Also have the same for crushing claws...bravo! Same w/ OOE, except thinking now he should maybe have a slightly higher leadership?
~like the spore options for the biovore without making it too powerful (since they can't change during a game)
~my Tyrannofex is base 225 pts with a 15 pt rupture cannon option, but not sure the value of your Biological Warfare rule. A tyrannofex can already shoot 3 weapons, right?
~I think assaulting from subterranean deployment may be a bit too strong even if very characterful. Maybe a halfway measure, such as granting the unit a 4+ cover save on the arrival turn and can still run but not assault.

Keep up the good work!

Thanks for the feedback

The subterranean assault was a difficult rule to rewrite: I started by basing it on the Dark eldar web way portal but that was much too powerfull in my eyes because the portal is "thrown" in the Shooting phase by an Independant character. It's always up at the start of the 2nd turn, allows all the units that can come through the portal to be held back in reserve at the start of the game and Monstrous creatures can use it. There's no guarantee that the Trygon will be there at the start of the 2nd turn and only units that can already be held back in reserve by their own rules can use it. Also other Monstrous creatures can't make use of it.

Also Web Way Portal lists are not really seen as something that's OTT. Compared to the WWP the Trygon tunnel is still something tame but that was neccessary because this "portal" comes with a 200pts Monstrous creature attached to it.

PS: Elite section is now up

[ghoulio]

Let me say that this is by far the best revising of this book that I have seen. 9 times out of 10 its just people wanting to turn their codex into something completely overpowered and game breaking. Like many Tyranid players out there I have done my fair share of "what if?" thinking. For the most part I really like what you have in the different PDF's. I do have some suggestions though.

Troops
1)Tyranid Warriors: I agree with Azimaith, Tyranid Warriors should be Str 5 at that price or keep their current stats and be changed to 20pts base each with 2 sets of scything talons. One thing I REALLY like is the one special weapon for every 3 models.

2) Genestealers: The only change that is needed to Genestealers is giving them Flesh hooks and making them 15pts base. Literally everything else about this unit doesn't need to be changed and is great as is (BL REALLY doesn't need a price increase as he is as expensive as he was in 4th ed, but lost power weapons and synapse)

3) Hormagaunts: I am of the mind that Hormagaunts are one of the few units that are almost exactly right they way they are in 5th ed. I love their stats, I love the fact that they are WS 3. To me it makes sense for Termagants and Hormagaunts to have the same stats (more or less) just different weapon options. They SHOULD suck, but just be cheap throw away troops. I initially was disappointed when they lost leaping, but after about 50+ games I don't notice the change anymore and I dont think they should get it. The only change I would make would be 1pt each for their upgrades. I would specifically leave off flesh hooks too, they don't need them. You do that and they are perfect.

4)Termagants: I miss the without number rule. I would almost like to see Termagants regain this, get lowered to 4pts each base (so WON is a 3pt upgrade) and have Tervigons just REMOVED from the Troops section and made into the support HQ choice. Tervigons to me always just seemed like an afterthought "bandaid" to the Tyranid codex.

5) Ripper Swarms: Love it.

6) Mycetic Spore: Love it.

7) Ranged Weapons: In my opinion this is the area of the book that is BY FAR the biggest mess. Compare the 4th ed book and the 5th ed book. The 4th ed book has 7 guns while the 5th ed book has 27. The 4th ed book has MORE variety then the 5th ed one. That is CRAZY to me! There were so many changes that were just made for the sake of making them and were completely un-needed. This section needs someone to go through it with a fine tooth comb and greatly streamline things, combine/remove all guns with similar effects. You don't see 5 different missile launchers that all do the exact same thing in the Space Marine book, so we shouldn't have that here either. Here are a couple of examples:

Stranglethorn Cannon/Cluster Spines: K, they are the same gun. More or less same strength, same ap, etc. Both guns should be replaced with the following:

Stranglethorn Cannon: Str 6, Ap5, 36" Range, Assault 1, Large Blast, Pinning. Any unit hit by a stranglethorn cannon counts as being in difficult terrain till the start of the next turn as the tenticles grab target unit (barbed strangler stays the same as the tenticles aren't strong enough to cause this effect)

Brain Leech Devourer, Stinger Salvo, Death Spitter, Devourer: Why on earth do we have 4 of the same gun? They all shoot 3-6 times, have a str of 4-6 with almost no ap.

Stinger Salvo: removed from the game!

Brain Leech Devourers and Devourers: stay the same

Death Spitter: Str 5, Ap5, 24" Range, Assault 1 Blast. Makes COMPLETE sense to me as for the last 20 years this gun has been a 1 shot blast weapon since it fires a beetle that EXPLODES lol. Why it was turned into a devourer I will never know.

Venom Cannons/Rupture Cannons: Same gun. Hell, the Rupture Cannon has exactly the same stats as the 4th ed Venom Cannon. Combine the two to look like the following: Heavy Venom Cannon Str 9, Ap 4, 36" range, assault 2 and Regular Venom Cannons be: Str 7, Ap4, 36" range, assault 2 (no penalty to armor for either gun)

Synapse: Synapse is a mess this book. It's only purpose is being a hinderence. I have two ideas for how you could change it. First would be to turn it into the same exact rules as Marneus Calgar's leadership rule ie. the Tyranid Player can choose to pass or fail any leadership test in synapse range. If this is too powerful then I would change it so wounds taken by "Gants" (Termagants or Hormagaunts) for over-run don't count towards any other Tyranid creature in combat. Because seriously, would a Carnifex give a CRAP if 30 gants died beside it? Answer...no, it wouldn't. The universal change I would make would be going back to 4th ed...any Tyranid creature that fails it's morale test outside of Synapse falls back to the closest Synapse creature...NOT the board edge. Always loved that rule.

- Side note: One thing I would also add is two things for Shadow in the Warp. 1) Shadow in the Warp is always the same distance of a creatures synapse. So if a Hive Tyrant has a Synapse of 18" (which it should) then it's shadow in the warp should be that too. 2) It works on units in vehicles!!!!!!! (FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!! lol).

[ghoulio]

Heavy Support:

1) Carnifex: Love it. I would also give it the option to take the Acid Spray option from the Tyrannofex (see Tyrannofex changes)

2) Old One Eye: Still horrible, albiet slight LESS horrible then it's current form where it is actually WORSE then Pyrovores. A Trygon is still vastly better then this guy in every way. Personally I just don't see the point of even including him to be totally honest. Tyranid special characters have never made sense to me and I would just remove him from the codex (4th ed had it right!)

3) Biovore: Love it.

4) Hive Guard: Putting them here is a mistake in my opinion. I was thinking these guys should be an upgrade to Tyrant Guard (so Tyrant Guard cost 45pts each while Hive Guard cost 55pts each) ie. a body guard for a Shooty Hive Tyrant which honestly is what I thought they were before the book even came out lol. To me that is the single best place for them and makes complete sense.

5) Trygon: Should just be the exact same as the current book. I would handle the Trygon tunnel in the exact same way that you have it with one exception. I would make the hole function exactly as the current WWP (ie it's just treated as a board edge) and I would put the limitation of 1 unit per turn can come through the tunnel and the tunnel doesn't appear till the Trygon emerges (obviously).

6) Mawloc: Even with the small changes you have (the re-rolling to scatter is nice) I still think it is too expensive for what you get. I have used Mawloc's extensively and Trygons consistantly kill at least double what they do. I would just leave him at WS 3 and have him cost 150pts. Another thing you could do is give him a "Swallow Whole" special rule where if he hits with all 3 attacks then he can just remove one model from base to base (no saves of any sort, str cap of 4 or 5 on it before modification).

7) Tryannofex: Ah, the Tryannofex. The most redundant unit in a sea of redundant things in this book. With your changes to the Carnfiex what is the purpose of this creature? The Tyrannofex IS a Carnifex. In my personal opinion this guy should just be removed from the book. He doesn't fill a Niche in this support section at all. You have Carnifex's as tough weapon platforms, Trygons as the heavy hitting CC critter, the Mawloc for disruption and support and finally Biovores for artillery. Do we really need another, significantly more expensive Carnifex that is no better at the Carnifex's job? You could use the converted models for Carnifex's with 2+ armor saves.

8) Weapons: Crushing Claws aren't used now because they really aren't useful, especially at that price. I would change it so they were 15pt each and had some effect like being able to lock a tank in hand to hand combat unless it rolls a 4+ or add +1 to the damage chart of vehicles as it tears it to pieces. Just give it something cool.

9) Upgrages:

Toxin Sacs: One thing you are really correct on is there needs to be a MC version of toxin sacs. I would just make Toxin Sacs poison at a 3+ and leave it as a 10pt upgrade (since anything T6 or lower you will re-roll wounds on which makes it better then wounding on a 2+ without a re-roll).

Regeneration: In it's current state it is virtually useless. Standard regen should be a 5+ or turned into a 5+ invulnerable save due to the creature repairing damage as fast as it's taking it. You do either of those things and it might be worth 20pts.

[ghoulio]

Elites:

Pretty much everything you have is virtually spot on. There are only a very small handful of changes I would make:

1) Lictors cost 60pts
2) Zoanthrope shooting attacks aren't counted as psychic powers (ie like Demon shooting attacks). Points cost raised to 65pts each.
3) Venomthropes are purchased in broods of 3 then during deployment they are turned into IC. Cost raised to 60-65pts each.

I really enjoyed reading your changes and if GW found it in their heart to do a "Revised 5th Edition Tyranid Codex" like they did with the 6th ed Dark Elves in fantasy and used these changes I would be over the moon

[Maskedman5oh4]

I read over all of your 'modifications.'

I was a little underwhelmed.

However, the absolute thing you got spot on was your rule
"subterranean assault".

I could never get why Raveners couldn't follow a Trygon or Mawloc. So, for me, this rules makes sense, is not OP, and follow the theme of the army,



This post took 34 minutes; I have had too many beers. Thank you for your patience. Edited 4 times.

[jt.glass]

I would change the Synapse so that it doesn't grant Fearless. Instead, all units in synapse range automatically pass any morale checks

What difference would that make?


jt.

[Panzer MkIV]

Added HQ and Fast Attack

Sorry about the delay: Life was hectic these last few weeks and I forgot all about this thread

I'll answer the posts tomorrow when I'm more clearheaded

[ghoulio]

As with the other PDFs the two new ones look really good. Here are a couple of suggestions .

Fast Attack

Gargoyles This unit doesnt need any changes, should stay exactly as they are in the current book (including not being able to get flesh hooks)

Shrikes & Raveners love it

Harpy I think we can all agree that this is one of the creatures that needs the most help in the current book. You did pretty much everything I would of done. The only thing I am thinking though is the price drop and armor save to a 3+ aren't needed if you give the creature the toughness boost and move like a jet bike. Just those two things and I think you can leave it at 160pts base (the WS increase is nice as well).

HQ

Swarmlord Removed from the game! He is completely silly and is the single most "Anti Tyranid" creature Robin Cruddace could of put into this codex. He basically gave a faceless enemy a face...sigh

Hive Tyrant - For the most part the revised Tyrant is pretty close to being spot on. The only things I am going to put down are additions to what you already have:

Special Rules:

Synapse: 18” Range

Psychic Powers:

The Horror: Shooting attack, 24” range, -2 LD Morale test on target unit

Psychic Scream: Shooting attack, 12” radius, -1 leadership test, all effected units take the number of wounds that they fail their leadership test by. No armor saves allowed (invulnerable and cover saves may be taken as normal)

Weapon Options:

Bone Sabres (30-50pts): Tyrant replaces all weapons with four boneswords. They cause instant death, force re-rolls of successful invulnerable saves and grant a 4+ invulnerable save in close combat.

Special Abilities:

Psychic Monstrosity (30pts): Allows the Hive Tyrant to cast 2 psychic powers per turn and increases shadow in the warp to 24” and grants the Hive Tyrant all 4 psychic powers.

Thorax Swarm (25pts): Creates a swarm of bugs that surround the Tyrant making it difficult for ranged weapons to draw a direction line of sight, gives Tyrant a 4+ Cover Save.

Swarmlord (25pts): Grants Hive Tyrant the Eternal Warrior Special Ability

For each Hive Tyrant you may take up to 3 Tyrant Guard for 50pts each – OR - if the Hive Tyrant has one of the Heavy Ranged Weapons ie. Stranglethorn Cannon, Heavy Venom Cannon options, it make take up to 3 Hive Guard as body guard instead for 60pts each.

Terivgon The only change I would make would be to Onslaught.

Onslaught Cast during the movement phase. Target unit may either Run and fire their weapons - OR - grants target unit "fleet of foot" for that turn.

Parasite - Lowered to 120-140pts.

[Thrax]

Sorry I've fallen a bit behind on my commentary. I'll start with your last first ~ Fast Attack...
~ gargoyles, I couldn't agree more! I also added a point to their cost; I don't don't know why nobody thinks they aren't just a shade too good for their price
~ sky slasher swarm - agree that the WS needs to be up a notch and Eternal Warrior is a must. I like your 'Sky Darkens' rule better than mine; my version is similar except you can get one for each Fast Attack choice.
~ your ravener is the same as mine but I added the options of toxic sacs/adrenal glands for 5 pts each. Maybe that makes them TOO useful?
~ not so sure about the harpy...I like the increased WS and maybe even the toughness but I don't think it should have the increased toughness and the nimbleness of a jetbike together. Just doesn't feel right. I dropped the points to 140 but left the toughness at 5.

All in all pretty much on target. I'll try to add more when I get the chance.

[Panzer MkIV]

Troops
1)Tyranid Warriors: I agree with Azimaith, Tyranid Warriors should be Str 5 at that price or keep their current stats and be changed to 20pts base each with 2 sets of scything talons. One thing I REALLY like is the one special weapon for every 3 models. I'm still not sure if the STR increase is really neccesary and keeping the current stats for 20pts is just too cheap, 25 maybe but not 20. The Special weapon change and the change to the Venom cannon ensures that the Tyranids have a decent objective-sitter without having to resort to an almost mandatory Tervigon and having access to a decent transport popper in the Troops section making Hive guard less of a no brainer for that role.

2) Genestealers: The only change that is needed to Genestealers is giving them Flesh hooks and making them 15pts base. Literally everything else about this unit doesn't need to be changed and is great as is (BL REALLY doesn't need a price increase as he is as expensive as he was in 4th ed, but lost power weapons and synapse) Actually, the current Broodlord is 10 points cheaper than the 4th edition one so I upped the price accordingly: I just think that 60pts is too cheap for a model of that caliber. He's even superior in a lot of ways compared to an Ork Warboss (more WS, I, SV, rending, scything talons, fleet, infiltrate, Psychic powers AND he's an upgrade for a Troops choice. So IMO even when at 70pts and only available for broods of at least 10 models he's an absolute steal.

3) Hormagaunts: I am of the mind that Hormagaunts are one of the few units that are almost exactly right they way they are in 5th ed. I love their stats, I love the fact that they are WS 3. To me it makes sense for Termagants and Hormagaunts to have the same stats (more or less) just different weapon options. They SHOULD suck, but just be cheap throw away troops. I initially was disappointed when they lost leaping, but after about 50+ games I don't notice the change anymore and I dont think they should get it. The only change I would make would be 1pt each for their upgrades. I would specifically leave off flesh hooks too, they don't need them. You do that and they are perfect. My line of thinking was that all Tyranid creatures whose main role is assault have a minimum WS of 4 (excluding the swarms) and shooty Tyranids have a max WS3 (again with some exceptions). With regard to leaping I've felt the sting of losing it too many times so I added it as an upgrade which you can always ignore and get the cheaper version

4)Termagants: I miss the without number rule. I would almost like to see Termagants regain this, get lowered to 4pts each base (so WON is a 3pt upgrade) and have Tervigons just REMOVED from the Troops section and made into the support HQ choice. Tervigons to me always just seemed like an afterthought "bandaid" to the Tyranid codex. I left it in so you have the choice. I made it more "expensive" by upping the number of Termagants you need to unlock one as Troops in effect making it less of a default inclusion. 4 points is only one more than gretchin and too cheap: making them better for the same price

7) Ranged Weapons: I agree that there's too much redundancy qua ranged weapons in the book but going back to the 3rd and 4th edition format (which I loved) is just too great a task atm to balance with the large amount of units both in strenght and points so I left it at that

Synapse: Synapse is a mess this book. It's only purpose is being a hinderence. I have two ideas for how you could change it. First would be to turn it into the same exact rules as Marneus Calgar's leadership rule ie. the Tyranid Player can choose to pass or fail any leadership test in synapse range. If this is too powerful then I would change it so wounds taken by "Gants" (Termagants or Hormagaunts) for over-run don't count towards any other Tyranid creature in combat. Because seriously, would a Carnifex give a CRAP if 30 gants died beside it? Answer...no, it wouldn't. The universal change I would make would be going back to 4th ed...any Tyranid creature that fails it's morale test outside of Synapse falls back to the closest Synapse creature...NOT the board edge. Always loved that rule. Thanks for the idea: gonna implement that in my second draft

- Side note: One thing I would also add is two things for Shadow in the Warp. 1) Shadow in the Warp is always the same distance of a creatures synapse. So if a Hive Tyrant has a Synapse of 18" (which it should) then it's shadow in the warp should be that too. 2) It works on units in vehicles!!!!!!! (FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!! lol).

I like that. Maybe the increased synapse range can be called: "Embodiment of the Hive Mind"? The Shadow in the Warp change is just an oversight I forgot to include

Heavy Support:

2) Old One Eye: Still horrible, albiet slight LESS horrible then it's current form where it is actually WORSE then Pyrovores. A Trygon is still vastly better then this guy in every way. Personally I just don't see the point of even including him to be totally honest. Tyranid special characters have never made sense to me and I would just remove him from the codex (4th ed had it right!) I dunno, I like the big brute and his rules. The other day I used his rules and he killed a TH/SS terminator squad in 2 rounds of combat after which he regenerated 2 of his 3 wounds:a Trygon would've had a lot more trouble with that squad

4) Hive Guard: Putting them here is a mistake in my opinion. I was thinking these guys should be an upgrade to Tyrant Guard (so Tyrant Guard cost 45pts each while Hive Guard cost 55pts each) ie. a body guard for a Shooty Hive Tyrant which honestly is what I thought they were before the book even came out lol. To me that is the single best place for them and makes complete sense. I changed them to HS because it made more sense to me regarding their equipment. It also gives you a lot more options for anti-tank should you decide to make a tyranid army without any MC.I changed them to HS because it made more sense to me regarding their equipment. It also gives you a lot more options for anti-tank should you decide to make a tyranid army without any MC.

5) Trygon: Should just be the exact same as the current book. I would handle the Trygon tunnel in the exact same way that you have it with one exception. I would make the hole function exactly as the current WWP (ie it's just treated as a board edge) and I would put the limitation of 1 unit. The problem is how big would you make the tunnel marker and where do you put it after the Trygon emerges? Trust me, the Subterranean assault rule gave me quite the headache.

6) Mawloc: Even with the small changes you have (the re-rolling to scatter is nice) I still think it is too expensive for what you get. I have used Mawloc's extensively and Trygons consistantly kill at least double what they do. I would just leave him at WS 3 and have him cost 150pts. Another thing you could do is give him a "Swallow Whole" special rule where if he hits with all 3 attacks then he can just remove one model from base to base (no saves of any sort, str cap of 4 or 5 on it before modification). Swallow hole was a nice rule and adaptable for the Mawloc. I was at one stage even contemplating adding the Red Terror back in the list

7) Tryannofex: Ah, the Tryannofex. The most redundant unit in a sea of redundant things in this book. With your changes to the Carnfiex what is the purpose of this creature? The Tyrannofex IS a Carnifex. In my personal opinion this guy should just be removed from the book. He doesn't fill a Niche in this support section at all. You have Carnifex's as tough weapon platforms, Trygons as the heavy hitting CC critter, the Mawloc for disruption and support and finally Biovores for artillery. Do we really need another, significantly more expensive Carnifex that is no better at the Carnifex's job? You could use the converted models for Carnifex's with 2+ armor saves. It is a redundant unit but I decided against axing any unit from the book when I started this revision. I see the Carnifex more as a Jack of all trades, master of none unit, like the Dreadnought

9) Upgrages:

Toxin Sacs: One thing you are really correct on is there needs to be a MC version of toxin sacs. I would just make Toxin Sacs poison at a 3+ and leave it as a 10pt upgrade (since anything T6 or lower you will re-roll wounds on which makes it better then wounding on a 2+ without a re-roll).

Regeneration: In it's current state it is virtually useless. Standard regen should be a 5+ or turned into a 5+ invulnerable save due to the creature repairing damage as fast as it's taking it. You do either of those things and it might be worth 20pts.

The current regeneration rule always served me well during 4th edition. Maybe I 'm just lucky...

Elites:

Pretty much everything you have is virtually spot on. There are only a very small handful of changes I would make:

1) Lictors cost 60pts
2) Zoanthrope shooting attacks aren't counted as psychic powers (ie like Demon shooting attacks). Points cost raised to 65pts each. Not every list has psyker defences
3) Venomthropes are purchased in broods of 3 then during deployment they are turned into IC. Cost raised to 60-65pts each.Like the Sanguinary priests? I find the priest to be OTT and too spammable. It's not a good comparison. You should compare it with a Big Mek with KFF: compared to him the Venomthrope is a steal

I really enjoyed reading your changes and if GW found it in their heart to do a "Revised 5th Edition Tyranid Codex" like they did with the 6th ed Dark Elves in fantasy and used these changes I would be over the moon

Glad you enjoyed it and thanks for the (lengthy) reply

[ghoulio]

If fixing this book is something you want to do then there are certain things that have to be rectified. The number 1 thing as I mentioned is the ranged section so I am going to go a little bit more in depth into it.

Ranged Weapon Section:

The main reason why this section needs to be fixed is because of how big of a mess it currently is and I can’t stress this point enough. I personally feel it is BY FAR the worst part of this book (or any book for that matter) and it is the main thing holding this army back as it helps create many of the problems we see (big one is all our REAL anti tank crammed into the elites section).

We had a decent ranged section in 4th ed because everything had a purpose without any filler and all the guns mimicked their fluff perfectly (living ammo…awesome lol). Even though the ranged weapons were super cool for how they worked (I loved that it was based off of the target organisms base strength and attacks) it was quite complicated, specifically for opponents of Tyranid Players. The same goes for the stat changing system. It is the main reason both systems had to be fixed to be brought in line with everything else in 40k. That would have been great if everything was just streamlined to the averages of the amount of shots/strength of the weapons, but that didn’t happen. As I mentioned before everything was just changed around for the sake of change. Multi shot weapons were turned into blast weapons (eg. venom cannon) and blast weapons were turned into multi shot weapons (eg. death spitters).

You mention that it would be too hard to balance it but I disagree. All you have to do is combine and remove all the guns that have the same function and fix a couple of the guns that needed fixing. You don’t see the marine codex having a “Missile Launcher” (str 8, ap 3, range 48”, heavy) a “Rocket Launcher” (Str 8, ap 3, range 36”, heavy) and a “Rocket Pod Launcher” (str 7, ap 3, Range 48”, heavy). This is just an example to illustrate how silly having a Death Spitter (current form), Stinger Salvo and Brain Leech Devourer is since they are the same gun with very minor differences and all fill the exact same function. This would be my revised ranged weapon list:

- Flesh Borer - same as current except living ammo added back in
- Spike Rifle - same as current, just a free upgrade for Termagants
- Spine Fists - same as current, just a free upgrade for Termagants
- Strangle Web - same as current except str 4 base, pinning
- Devourer - same as current
- Brain Leech Devourer - same as current
- Deathspitter - Str 5, Ap 5, Range 24”, Assault 1 Blast (so basically what they have had for the last 15 years before the 5th ed codex)
- Venom Cannon - Str 7, Ap 4, Range 36”, Assault 2, -1 to damage chart except against open topped vehicles
- Heavy Venom Cannon - Str 9, Ap 4, Range 36”, Assault 2
- Barbed Strangler - same as current
- Stranglethorn Cannon - same as current with the following line added in: "any unit hit by a Stranglethorn Cannon counts as being in difficult terrain until the end of their next turn"
- Flesh Hooks - same as current
- Flame Spurt (wide) - Str 5, Ap 4, 12” range, assault 1, Template (ie fired exactly like hellhound)
- Flame Spurt (narrow) - Str 8, Ap 1, 12” range, assault 1, melta
- Bio Plasma - same as current
- Warp Lance - same as current
- Warp Blast - same as current
- Ripper Tentacles - same as current
- Impaler Cannon
- Both Trygon ranged attacks - same as current

That would be my “final” ranged weapon list. Doesn’t look like too much has changed on first glance but 10 weapons have been removed/combined while other weapons have been “refined” to fit a niche within the codex. Now there are no “duplicate roles” weapons, the Warriors get their iconic weapon back while still being able to have multi shot weapons (devourers) and it alleviates the issue of all the anti tank fire power is crammed into the elites section. The other nice thing is current Tyranid players wouldn’t have to change any of their models as none of the basic function has changed.

Other Suggestions:

Genestealers: I still think if you add "frag spines" that come standard and make them 15pts each this unit is perfect. Never in my life have I heard of anyone complain that Stealers in their current form are overpowered; this is including having a Broodlord. You are correct when you say that his stats are better than most other armies’ commander’s. The big difference though is he has no wargear and no power weapons or any other weapon options. The old Broodlord was 70 points but came with power weapons (huge) and synapse (also huge). For only 23 more points you could give him a 3+ armor save, make him strength 6 and give him and his entire unit preferred enemy. The current Broodlord is 60 points (when you include the stealer he is upgrading from) and that is perfect as he is priced like a bare bones commander.

One Change that I forgot about for this unit: Change the psychic power “Aura of Despair” to “cast during the Tyranid Players movement phase until the next Tyranid movement phase” (because right now it is worthless).

Harpy: After thinking about it more it just doesn't sit well with me having the Harpy being as resilient as a Hive Tyrant. My suggestion would be to change it to move like a jet bike (not elder jet bike since it isn’t that nimble), add +1 WS (so it’s WS 4) and bring it down to 120pts base, remove the secondary weapon option standard, add in Deathspitter for +5 pts and Brain Leech Devourers for +15pts as a secondary weapon, and leave everything else the same as the current Codex Harpy and add in your spore mine options.

The reasoning behind this is because it isn’t supposed to be a TOUGH monster. It is in the fast attack section, so it should be fragile and fast, hard hitting and leave the resilience to the Carnifex’s and Trygons. Remember, when he moves flat out now he gets a 3+ cover save (and drops those mines) so he can still take a beating while not changing his overall feel.

Hive Guard: If you move Hive Guard to the Heavy section you have undone everything you want to accomplish for your revision. This army currently is starved for reliable anti tank (its biggest issue), so moving them here means that instead of cramming up the elites you cram up this section while at the same time destroying your ability to take Monstrous Creatures, which is one of the best parts of this book. I strongly suggest that you either leave them as elites (with all these changes) or, my original idea as shooty Tyrant body guard (which if you think about it makes BY FAR the most sense).

Tyrannofex/Carnifex: I agree the Carnifex should have the “jack of all trades” tag but you should still remove the Tyrannofex. With the changes to the Venom Cannon the Tyrannofex is even more redundant then it is now. Trust me, removing it would be a great change.

Well, that is pretty much all I got. I gotta stop reading these threads because I keep getting all riled up and hopeful for things that will never happen lol. Ah well, it's always fun to talk about though I guess

[Panzer MkIV]

Fast Attack

Gargoyles This unit doesnt need any changes, should stay exactly as they are in the current book (including not being able to get flesh hooks)
Well, I found them too cheap compared to a Termagant especially when it's possible to take them as troops with the Aerial Assault rule and the addition of fleet.

Harpy I think we can all agree that this is one of the creatures that needs the most help in the current book. You did pretty much everything I would of done. The only thing I am thinking though is the price drop and armor save to a 3+ aren't needed if you give the creature the toughness boost and move like a jet bike. Just those two things and I think you can leave it at 160pts base (the WS increase is nice as well). After some thinking I agree with your assesment of the creature: I'll drop his toughness back to 5 and leave his/her/it points at 160 although the increased save will stay for now.

HQ

Swarmlord Removed from the game! He is completely silly and is the single most "Anti Tyranid" creature Robin Cruddace could of put into this codex. He basically gave a faceless enemy a face...sighI'm not a fan of him either: why must every army have a Mary Sue these days?
But like I stated above I made the descision to keep the SC's in the list: the majority of them are just rare mutants like the Old One Eye. For the sake of argument let's find out what we can do about the Hive Tyrant should the Swarmlord drop from the list ? Which brings us to...

Hive Tyrant - For the most part the revised Tyrant is pretty close to being spot on. The only things I am going to put down are additions to what you already have:

Special Rules:

Synapse: 18” Range Like I said above: J'approve but then with a small increase in base cost or as an upgrade?

Psychic Powers:

The Horror: Shooting attack, 24” range, -2 LD Morale test on target unit

Psychic Scream: Shooting attack, 12” radius, -1 leadership test, all effected units take the number of wounds that they fail their leadership test by. No armor saves allowed (invulnerable and cover saves may be taken as normal)

Weapon Options:

Bone Sabres (30-50pts): Tyrant replaces all weapons with four boneswords. They cause instant death, force re-rolls of successful invulnerable saves and grant a 4+ invulnerable save in close combat. I'll propably make them a 50pts upgrade: any cheaper and it's a nobrainer IMO

Special Abilities:

Psychic Monstrosity (30pts): Allows the Hive Tyrant to cast 2 psychic powers per turn and increases shadow in the warp to 24” and grants the Hive Tyrant all 4 psychic powers.I think 50pts is more appropriate, maybe even 60. Librarians pay 50pts just to be able to cast 2 powers a turn (which may or may not be overpriced in itself

Thorax Swarm (25pts): Creates a swarm of bugs that surround the Tyrant making it difficult for ranged weapons to draw a direction line of sight, gives Tyrant a 4+ Cover Save.Not sure about this one: it seems too cheap and too powerfull

Swarmlord (25pts): Grants Hive Tyrant the Eternal Warrior Special Ability That seems sensible: it only works against force weapons, wraithcannons and a few other items.

For each Hive Tyrant you may take up to 3 Tyrant Guard for 50pts each – OR - if the Hive Tyrant has one of the Heavy Ranged Weapons ie. Stranglethorn Cannon, Heavy Venom Cannon options, it make take up to 3 Hive Guard as body guard instead for 60pts each.And they gain the Shieldwall rule I presume? Looks rather nice: it's fairly limited, doesn't look like a nobrainer and eases the pressure a bit for the people who just ran out of Heavy Support slots in a Nidzilla list.

If I implement all these changes it will be one hell of an unit entry...which fits nicely with the background. Not to mention that a maxed out Hive Tyrant with 3 Guards will be close to 600points!! Even then s/he'll get the Stampede rule to avoid deathstar builds (I...hate...deathstars!). All right you convinced me.
Swarmlord, consider yourself axed from the list for hideous crimes against the Fluff

Terivgon The only change I would make would be to Onslaught.

Onslaught Cast during the movement phase. Target unit may either Run and fire their weapons - OR - grants target unit "fleet of foot" for that turn. Not sure if fleeting brood of Carnifexes is good or a bad thing...

Parasite - Lowered to 120-140pts.

Maybe he needs a smell price drop but not too much: don't want another set of underpriced SC's like the Space Marine codex.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll get back to your other post in a few days with the revisions

Sorry I've fallen a bit behind on my commentary. No need to apologise: just glad you took the time to comment

I'll start with your last first ~ Fast Attack...
~ gargoyles, I couldn't agree more! I also added a point to their cost; I don't don't know why nobody thinks they aren't just a shade too good for their price
~ sky slasher swarm - agree that the WS needs to be up a notch and Eternal Warrior is a must. I like your 'Sky Darkens' rule better than mine; my version is similar except you can get one for each Fast Attack choice.
~ your ravener is the same as mine but I added the options of toxic sacs/adrenal glands for 5 pts each. Maybe that makes them TOO useful?
~ not so sure about the harpy...I like the increased WS and maybe even the toughness but I don't think it should have the increased toughness and the nimbleness of a jetbike together. Just doesn't feel right. I dropped the points to 140 but left the toughness at 5. See above

All in all pretty much on target. I'll try to add more when I get the chance.

Anything you've used in your own revision?