The First War Against Chaos Expansion

[Eldred91]

I've been working on this largely from personal interest and thought I would post it here to get your opinions on it.

In essence it is an expansion to cover playing games during the period after the fall of the Great Polar Gates and the Chaos invasion that followed. As such it is full of super heroes like Aenarion and Grimnir and villians like N'kari. I hope one or two of you are interested enough in the period (or in shiny new rules) that you'll take a look and leave your opinions or even playtest it .

Due to the length of the period covered I have split the exspansion into two eras:

The first of these, Dawn of Hope, covers the time from Aenarion recieving the blessing of Asuryan to the death of the Everqueen.

The second, Desperate Times, covers the era after Aenarion drew the Sword of Khaine.

[OldMaster]

*starts reading*
Sounds awesome. I will tell you how it was in... I think two days if I keep going.

[OldMaster]

Read it. Very nice =)

I would tweak some prizes, though. Be'lakor was never worth the 650 points and deserves a better lore. The SHaggoth Storm Caller seems also a bit overpriced, not to mention the Dragon Ogre Bull who costs the same amount but is to the SHaggoth Storm Caller like a Skavenslave is next to a Chaos Lord.

Loved the elf lists though =)

[Eldred91]

Read it. Very nice =)

I would tweak some prizes, though. Be'lakor was never worth the 650 points and deserves a better lore. The SHaggoth Storm Caller seems also a bit overpriced, not to mention the Dragon Ogre Bull who costs the same amount but is to the SHaggoth Storm Caller like a Skavenslave is next to a Chaos Lord.

Loved the elf lists though =)

Thanks for taking the time to read the packs and reply. On to your suggestions:

Be'lakor: I'm not sure I agree with you on his pricing, in addition to his profile and wizardness he also brings a couple of nifty table wide special rules to the party. However I see you're point on his magic lore but I really like the feel of it, perhaps I could up power some of his existing spells? Might go a small way towards making him justify his points better.

Shaggoth Storm Caller: What price do you think would be more appropriate?

Dragon Ogre Bull: Oops copy and paste error there. 500pts does seem a bit much, perhaps 170 would be nearer to the mark?

[Odin]

Interesting... I'll have to have a proper look later... but it appears that the first Everchosen of Chaos - Morkar - is missing.

[Eldred91]

Interesting... I'll have to have a proper look later... but it appears that the first Everchosen of Chaos - Morkar - is missing.

Let me know what you think when you get round to reading it, and if you ever happen to be in the Bromley area maybe we could arrange a playtest. As for Morkar he's a tricky one having apparently been killed by both Aenarion and Sigmar. Seeing as all the most recent background points towards it being Sigmar I decided to leave him out of the pack.

In other news I have slightly updated the packs having lowered the points cost of both the Storm Caller and Dragon Ogre Bull, slightly improved Be'lakor's spell list (in Desperate Times) and replaced Praan's scaly skin with regenerate.

Also if anyone has any ideas for additional characters/units please share them, for instance I was considering adding Thyriol (the mage from the sundering series) to the Caledor list.

[R-Love]

It looks like a good start. I'm not a very good judge on balance, so I'll try to be helpful and shoot it full of holes in the background and other miscellaneous things (don't feel obligated to enforce these) Warning: Long

First of all, the majority of the First Incursion occurred before Aenarion entered the Flame. This is really more of a minor quibble, as the armies fighting at the time wouldn't have any large changes to them. The thought of having Elf and Dwarf armies that are just learning to fight should be considered (though it would likely require massive rewrites to the rules, which may be more work than you were planning to do)

Dawn of Hope:

Army of the Phoenix King
Master Smiths: I don't really think Dragon Armour should be free if you have heavy armour, it's probably wasn't that widespread. At the very least, Silver Helms and Hunters probably shouldn't get it automatically
Dragon Prince: The old War of the Beard rules had Dragon Princes able to be taken in units of up to three. Just throwing that out there

Defenders of Karaz-Ankor
Any particular reason why Ironbreakers aren't there?
I am assuming the Grudge Pony is supposed to be like the carts you get with Skull Pass and the Miner kit? Chariot would make more sense than Monster.

Lizardmen
I did not see any explanation as to what First Generation actually does. (There is no page 61)

Chaos
Just out of curiosity, why Zar? Marauder Chieftain or Warlord would describe what it is much easier.
Why the Exalted Hero is missing is missing confuses me. As is, there's a large gap between the Zar and Chaos Lord that doesn't make sense.
Overall, I'd probably tone down the armour in general. The people fighting for Chaos at this time would have very little smithing skills. Chaos Armour gets around this to an extent, but I'd probably recommend limiting it to characters, and giving Warriors and company a bit of a price drop, and getting rid of barding entirely.
N'Kari has the Large Target rule twice and is missing the Daemonic rule. Daemonic also removes the need for Unstable and Unbreakable.

Desperate Times:

Elves
Malekith is probably too good for his age. Bear in mind that he was only 38 at the end of the War, barely more than a child in Elf terms.

Dwarfs
While I applaud the attempt to Bring back the Slayer army, the Slayer Cult didn't really spring up until after Grimnir left for the Wastes. He should also still have both his Axes until he left.
Snorri may have fought in the First Incursion (which is doubtful), but he wouldn't have been High King or Lord level (and subsequently have all the High King's gear), and definitely wouldn't have been old enough to deserve the moniker Whitebeard. Snorri Youngbeard, maybe?

Overall, pretty good work I'd be wary of including characters from the Sundering though, it happened almost two thousand years after the Vortex, it's a long time even for elves, most of the major players of the Sundering would have been quite young at the time

[Eldred91]

It looks like a good start. I'm not a very good judge on balance, so I'll try to be helpful and shoot it full of holes in the background and other miscellaneous things (don't feel obligated to enforce these) Warning: Long

First of all, the majority of the First Incursion occurred before Aenarion entered the Flame. This is really more of a minor quibble, as the armies fighting at the time wouldn't have any large changes to them. The thought of having Elf and Dwarf armies that are just learning to fight should be considered (though it would likely require massive rewrites to the rules, which may be more work than you were planning to do)

Firstly thanks for taking the time to reply and doing it in such great depth. You are of course right about there being many years of chaotic incursion before Aenarion rose to prominance, however as it seems that most of this time consisted of the elves running and hiding or being massacred it didn't seem a great setting to replicate, once demi gods start getting involved things become a lot more interesting.

Dawn of Hope:

Army of the Phoenix King
Master Smiths: I don't really think Dragon Armour should be free if you have heavy armour, it's probably wasn't that widespread. At the very least, Silver Helms and Hunters probably shouldn't get it automatically
Dragon Prince: The old War of the Beard rules had Dragon Princes able to be taken in units of up to three. Just throwing that out there

Fair enough, it was originally included to help make up for the loss of Speed of Asuryan. However you are right about it not fitting that well so I'll keep it for the Caledor list and replace it with Immune to Psychology which has the added bonus of differentiating between the three elf armies some more.

As for Dragon Princes I don't want them fielded in units, however they are very deliberatly priced so that you can fit 2 in 2000pts

Defenders of Karaz-Ankor
Any particular reason why Ironbreakers aren't there?
I am assuming the Grudge Pony is supposed to be like the carts you get with Skull Pass and the Miner kit? Chariot would make more sense than Monster.

The reason Ironbreakers aren't there is twofold, firstly Dwarfs have yet to encounter Night Goblins (in significant numbers at least) or Skaven the two armies it actually fights in tunnels a lot and so has less need for specialist tunnel fighters, secondly I like the idea that they have not yet reached the level were they can produce Gromril Armour in (comparativly) large numbers.

Yes the Grudge Pony is that little cart, I made it a monster to follow the example of the Warshrine and corpsecart, seeing as it wouldn't be doing impact hits anyway I think it benefits from the simpler stat line.

Lizardmen
I did not see any explanation as to what First Generation actually does. (There is no page 61)

That should reference page 61 of the Lizardmen army book (its Kroak's special rule). I've now corrected it.

Chaos
Just out of curiosity, why Zar? Marauder Chieftain or Warlord would describe what it is much easier.
Why the Exalted Hero is missing is missing confuses me. As is, there's a large gap between the Zar and Chaos Lord that doesn't make sense.
Overall, I'd probably tone down the armour in general. The people fighting for Chaos at this time would have very little smithing skills. Chaos Armour gets around this to an extent, but I'd probably recommend limiting it to characters, and giving Warriors and company a bit of a price drop, and getting rid of barding entirely.
N'Kari has the Large Target rule twice and is missing the Daemonic rule. Daemonic also removes the need for Unstable and Unbreakable.

Zar is used purely because I read Riders of the Dead recently where the chieftains of the Marauder tribes were led by Zars, its also a more interesting name in my opinion. I've also removed the options for heavy armour and a barded steed from his wargear list.

The rules for N'kari are based on those for the Exalted Greater Daemon hence the unstable and unbreakable. No real reason to keep it one way or the other though.

Desperate Times:

Elves
Malekith is probably too good for his age. Bear in mind that he was only 38 at the end of the War, barely more than a child in Elf terms.

I'll tone him down a bit, however he was apparently Commander of Nagaraythe according to the novel Malekith while his father was alive suggesting he must have had some skill in battle.

Dwarfs
While I applaud the attempt to Bring back the Slayer army, the Slayer Cult didn't really spring up until after Grimnir left for the Wastes. He should also still have both his Axes until he left.
Snorri may have fought in the First Incursion (which is doubtful), but he wouldn't have been High King or Lord level (and subsequently have all the High King's gear), and definitely wouldn't have been old enough to deserve the moniker Whitebeard. Snorri Youngbeard, maybe?

The idea of the Slayer list here is to represent those die hard companions who decided to accompany Grimnir north, something that will become more clear once I add a fluff section to this. Now admittadly there is no evidence in the background for this but its too cool a concept to pass up.

As for Snorri Malekith apparently meets him 238 years after the end of the Incursion and Dwarfs can live anything between 200 and 1000 years then I think its not beyond the realms of possibility that he was King during the latter years of the Incursion. I may change his moniker however

Overall, pretty good work I'd be wary of including characters from the Sundering though, it happened almost two thousand years after the Vortex, it's a long time even for elves, most of the major players of the Sundering would have been quite young at the time

Thanks, I'm generally only including those characters specifically mentioned to have had a role in the Incursion, such as Eorlan Anar who was Aenarion's standard bearer. The exception of course being Snorri but as there are so many White Dwarf Models floating around it seemed rude not to.

[R-Love]

As for Snorri Malekith apparently meets him 238 years after the end of the Incursion and Dwarfs can live anything between 200 and 1000 years then I think its not beyond the realms of possibility that he was King during the latter years of the Incursion. I may change his moniker however

I always assumed Morgrim would have become High King after Grimnir left, actually. Now that I think of it though, I'm starting to wonder about a lot of stuff. Did the position of High King even exist during that time? Why would Grimnir's line be High Kings at all, rather than Grugni's (who always seemed more kingish)? What happened to Morgrim, he died before Malekith came to the Old World, but how old was he? Why do Grimnir's axes look so different? Now I have to go look through a pile of army books to obsessively look for information that probably doesn't exist.

[Eldred91]

I always assumed Morgrim would have become High King after Grimnir left, actually. Now that I think of it though, I'm starting to wonder about a lot of stuff. Did the position of High King even exist during that time? Why would Grimnir's line be High Kings at all, rather than Grugni's (who always seemed more kingish)? What happened to Morgrim, he died before Malekith came to the Old World, but how old was he? Why do Grimnir's axes look so different? Now I have to go look through a pile of army books to obsessively look for information that probably doesn't exist.

If you do find any information then be sure to share it

[Eldred91]

I've updated the pack's again.

There are a few small rules changes and additions, such as the introduction of Pegasi and Malekith going back to his previous stats. The latter is because I decided to go with the information provided by the various sources over what intuition would suggest.

The biggest change however is that both packs now include a timeline.

So as usual have a look and let me know what you think.

[TheeForsakenOne]

That should reference page 61 of the Lizardmen army book (its Kroak's special rule). I've now corrected it.

Interesting rules, other people have commented on the other armies but having a personal bias to Lizardmen I feel I have to comment on what you have for them.

Ancient Times: Fair enough.
First Generation Slann: This doesn't represent a real 1st generation slann (I'll say more below).
Lizards of Legend/Nakai the Wanderer: Fair Enough.

The 1st generation Slann rules in the current army book do not really represent just what a living 1st generation was capable of. For one big example, the only first generation in the Southlands cast the Great Leveller (Or some equivalent although the SoM spell clearly takes inspiration from the story) with such power that it cleared out the entire continent and daemons never returned there until long after the war (He died in the process, of course). Lord Kroak himself was only killed after being attacked by 13 greater daemons at which point he developed the Deliverance of Itza spell after dying and returning as a spirit.

The first generation upgrade should be more expensive but should be much stronger to compensate (Perhaps +50 to 75). It should grant Supreme Shield of the Old Ones, what the dead version of Lord Kroak has and probably some other bonus, although I'm not sure what. Perhaps another discipline so a first generation could have up to five. So first generation Slann would start with two disciplines and could buy three more.

Personally I do like a lot of Kroak's rules in the first supplement. I do feel, however, that he is underpowered. For example, Teclis can still irresistable without miscasting, why not Kroak? I know Teclis isn't exactly a justifiable choice though... Although for the Great War Against Chaos it's perhaps not that overpowered. Also Lord Kroak has Supreme Shield of the Old Ones instead of the normal kind when he's dead so that means he certainly has it when he's alive. I do like he has mastered all the lores. It's a nice touch.

For Nakai, his background is he held back a tide of demons on his own during the war. I'm not quite sure why you made him a character killer rather than a unit killer, considering his story.

As for the army, it feels a little lacking, to be honest. At the start of the war, all of the lizardmen cities were intact. They had full access to old of the Old One's technology and knew how to use it. (Perhaps an increase in magic item allowance to represent it?) Also they would have a lot more Engines of the Gods than normal, although I don't know how you would represent that (Maybe bring back the Lustria book's Engine of the Gods as an additional choice?). By the time of the second expansion, a lot of Slann and cities will have been destroyed, it would make sense then for them to lose access to the additional technology.

Those are just my thoughts, as a very long time Lizardmen fanatic.

EDIT: Also you should forbid access to anything Sotek or Skaven related as they were not created until millennia later.

[Eldred91]

Thanks for taking the time to comment, having never played Lizardmen the additional insight on them is very useful.

Now onto your suggestions:

First Generation Slaan: I've given them a 3+ ward save and they gain an additional discipline, hopefully this should give them enough of an edge over a normal slaan to stand out without making them game breaking.

Lord Kroak: He has his 3+ Ward Save back. He also now ignores half of the miscasts he suffers which combined with the anti miscast discipline should give him a reasonable amount of protection. Additionally he can now cast on unlimited dice to help him throw out any super powerful spells he fancies.

Nakai: To be honest I completly stole his rules from the Tempus Fugitives rulespack and kept them as is becasue they looked cool. And if you are going to confront a tide of daemons it makes sense to do it one at a time

Weapons of the Old Ones: I have added this to the Dawn of Hope list, it gives an increased magic items allowance and access to the old engine of the gods.

[TheeForsakenOne]

First Generation Slaan: I've given them a 3+ ward save and they gain an additional discipline, hopefully this should give them enough of an edge over a normal slaan to stand out without making them game breaking.

Yeah I think that works well. The main problem is that really a lot of the personalities running around in the first war would be absolutely broken in a normal game of Warhammer. The first gens together were able to move the entire planet closer to the sun after all... I think the upgrade is really nice though. It fits well and definitely keeps Kroak up there as the greatest of the first generation.

Lord Kroak: He has his 3+ Ward Save back. He also now ignores half of the miscasts he suffers which combined with the anti miscast discipline should give him a reasonable amount of protection. Additionally he can now cast on unlimited dice to help him throw out any super powerful spells he fancies.

Make sense since Mazdamundi can use unlimited dice. I'm glad you remembered he doesn't know Deliverance of Itza yet. :P

Just a note on your timeline. I'm pretty sure Chaqua didn't fall until the time of Sotek when Clan Pestilens attacked the Lizardmen.

Nakai: To be honest I completly stole his rules from the Tempus Fugitives rulespack and kept them as is becasue they looked cool. And if you are going to confront a tide of daemons it makes sense to do it one at a time

You're pretty screwed if the demons don't have a character though. :P I know a lot of rules I've seen for him give him regen to show his immortality...

Weapons of the Old Ones: I have added this to the Dawn of Hope list, it gives an increased magic items allowance and access to the old engine of the gods.

That looks good. They were supposed to be used back at those times but were lost until Tehehuian found them again during the war against the Skaven and the birth of Sotek.

As an aside, if you do the siege of a temple-city scenario later on, it appears most cities have a giant death ray of some kind. :P

Non-Lizardmen related: Albion was created by the Old Ones and the Slann as a means of syphoning off a lot of the magic so the Isle of the Dead could handle binding the Realm of Chaos. They didn't make it themselves but instead created the Truthsayers who were directed to build dozens of stone circles on Albion. It would probably be a good idea to give the Tribes of Men access to Truthsayers. (Dark Emissaries were created much later by Be'lakor as an attempt to regain his body so they wouldn't exist yet).

[Eldred91]

I'm glad you approve of the changes, I will consider giving Nakai regenerate but I'm not sure on it yet.

As for the Albion stuff that is quite interesting and I might add it to the timeline somewhere, do you have any idea when this was? However the Tribes of Men list already includes Truthsayers

[TheeForsakenOne]

Skimming fail. > <

Anyway, I don't know when the construction of Albion took place unfortunately. The background comes from the Dark Shadows campaign but it never gave any times for when it happened, unfortunately. It'll be shortly before the creation of the vortex at the Isle of the Dead probably.

[Muad'Dib]

Read through your work, and overall - good job, it captures the feeling of that age of Warhammer nicely.

However, one thing stuck out to me as not being representative of the background/feel - the First Generation Slaan. Seeing that the Chaos lists can use Exalted Greater Daemons from Storm of Magic, I see no reason as to why not include First Generation Slaan properly; rather than treating them as just having a couple of special rules on top of the 2nd generation Slaan. They were on another level altogether, being the only Slaan that actually interacted with the Old Ones. Myself, I'd judge Lord Kroak, in his prime, to be in the 1500-2000 points range. (and that's with lowering it purposefully so that he can be used in battles at all, without breaking the game), and the 'basic' 1st generation Slaan being on the level of your current Lord Kroak.
Speaking more precisely, I think that a 1st generation Slaan (be it Lord Kroak or otherwise) need something more than having all the Disciplines (most of which don't actually improve their casting effectivness) or Loremaster (which, again, only increases the choice of spells, rather than their effectivness). Maybe something along the lines of:
Unrestrained Intensity
"Direct damage, hex and augument spells cast by 1st Generation Slaan target an additional d6 (or d3?) units. In the case of direct damage (but not hex and augument ) spells, the additional copies of the spell can target the same unit. Furthermore, the casting range of a 1st Generation Slann's spells is increased by 12". "
Would represent the power that enabled them to hold back hordes of Daemons pretty nicely, IMO. And, to make it balanced, make it so that only one 1st Generation Slaan can be taken, per battle.

In regards to Lizardmen, perhaps make it so that one or two unit(s) of Chameleon Skinks can be included as a core choice? They were more common before the Temple City responsible for their spawnings (Pahuax) got destroyed, and them being a special choice currently is representing the fact that they only recently started reemerging.

Sword of Khaine could use a little buff, as well, especially when you compare it to Ghal Maraz - something like dealing 2d6 wounds, perhaps ?

Grimnir's 2+ regeneration is over the top, IMO. 3+ (or even 4+) regen would still make him badass, but killable in a fair fight by other special characters.

Be'Lakor could really use a way of getting past armour, right now he is kind of hopeless against anything with 2+ or greater armour save. I'd swap Balesword for Blade of the Ether (as having both would make him massacre 9/10 of characters he touches). Also, he seems, IMO, more of a buffed up Daemon Prince, rather than an unique character. Consider giving him the Eternal Terror (units have to test for Terror every time he is within 6", at -1 LD) or Night Shroud (all enemies suffer -1 to hit with ranged weapons, aids Be'Lakor's entire army).

On a different note, is the Daemon Tz'arkan (in official fluff) connected somehow to the First Invasion?

[Eldred91]

Hmm more comments on First Generation Slaan, how about one of these two ideas:

1) They don't auto fail to cast on an unmodified roll of 1 or 2 (or possibly only autofail on a 1) meaning they can cast low level spells on 1 or 2 dice pretty much without risk

or

2) They can attempt to cast the same spell more than once per magic phase.

As for the Sword of Khaine the reason it only does d3 wounds is that Aenarion was eventually defeated by 4 greater daemons, if his sword was doing D6 or 2D6 wounds then he could potentially waste them all in a single round of combat. In the next update the Sword of Khaine "may not be destroyed or negated" which will allow Aenarion to tackle things like Obsidian Thirsters.

[Muad'Dib]

Hmm more comments on First Generation Slaan, how about one of these two ideas:

1) They don't auto fail to cast on an unmodified roll of 1 or 2 (or possibly only autofail on a 1) meaning they can cast low level spells on 1 or 2 dice pretty much without risk

or

2) They can attempt to cast the same spell more than once per magic phase.

I think the 1) is already a given, seeing most people will take the Discipline that gives them an extra PD for each spell cast. 2) is nice idea.

Check out my previous post, I've edited it quite extensively after posting, including an idea for a 1st Generation Discipline (though, seeing how powerful it is, I'd make it a blanket special rule for all 1st Generation Slaan), as well as additional stuff in regards to other things.

As for the Sword of Khaine the reason it only does d3 wounds is that Aenarion was eventually defeated by 4 greater daemons, if his sword was doing D6 or 2D6 wounds then he could potentially waste them all in a single round of combat. In the next update the Sword of Khaine "may not be destroyed or negated" which will allow Aenarion to tackle things like Obsidian Thirsters.

Touche. Nice idea there with negating negation

[Eldred91]

Next updates are up.

@Muad'Dib: While I like the idea you suggested for First Generation Slaan I think it could possibly get out of control quite quickly on the table top. Instead I've allowed Slaan to cast the same spell multiple times, with the increased amount of power dice available and additional powerdice discipline this should allow First Gen Slaan to become very powerful without unbalancing the game.

In regards to Lizardmen, perhaps make it so that one or two unit(s) of Chameleon Skinks can be included as a core choice? They were more common before the Temple City responsible for their spawnings (Pahuax) got destroyed, and them being a special choice currently is representing the fact that they only recently started reemerging.

The current selection rules for special choices allow a lot of Chameleon Skinks to be taken if you want to reflect that, I don't really want them in core where they could be used as the mainstay of an army.

Grimnir's 2+ regeneration is over the top, IMO. 3+ (or even 4+) regen would still make him badass, but killable in a fair fight by other special characters.

I've reduced Grimnir's regen to 3+.

Be'Lakor could really use a way of getting past armour, right now he is kind of hopeless against anything with 2+ or greater armour save. I'd swap Balesword for Blade of the Ether (as having both would make him massacre 9/10 of characters he touches). Also, he seems, IMO, more of a buffed up Daemon Prince, rather than an unique character. Consider giving him the Eternal Terror (units have to test for Terror every time he is within 6", at -1 LD) or Night Shroud (all enemies suffer -1 to hit with ranged weapons, aids Be'Lakor's entire army).

I've given Be'lakor Blade of Ether for armour and Night Shroud to make him a little bit different. However I do want him at essence to be a buffed up daemon prince as his latter special rules (in my mind at least) reflect the results of his curse.

On a different note, is the Daemon Tz'arkan (in official fluff) connected somehow to the First Invasion?

Yes, in the Malus Darkblade novels the sorcerous cabal who binds him was meant to have fought against Aenarion's army.