Don't forget that even if a vehicle add to a unit's mobility, being able to jump over obstacles to flank a unit or to get a rear AV can be very effective.Originally Posted by WallWeasels
NO WAY !
That's why you don't send a single unit. You concentrate your fire to achieve local superiority until what is left don't threaten you even if they assault.
"In the grimdark labs there is only procrastination"
As has been said 6++ isn't bad but it's sort of like getting socks for your birthday. You didn't ask for them. You don't want them. But whatever. You'll wear them. They're socks. - Anonymous
Black Templars ; Paint almost done : Sister of Battle, Dark Elves
Firstly: YES WAY!!Don't forget that even if a vehicle add to a unit's mobility, being able to jump over obstacles to flank a unit or to get a rear AV can be very effective.
NO WAY !
Well yes it is a good bonus to have which I, somewhat, noted above. Seraphim get to move "fast" without a transport and thus, in the case of the transport blowing up, have that over Dominions; however, Dominions have scout with is an instant 12 inchs extra on the seraphim to start and the ability to outflank. Both have good reasons but ultimately 4 meltas won't need to be on the rear of a vehicle to blow it up, especially twin linked. They pretty much guaranteed penetration at least twice and like 1.8 times against a land raider.
I'm possibly being a little thick here, but I normally get vary wary about relying on units that need to get first turn to do their damage. An Alpha Strike with 3 lots of Dominion could be very good, but what if people bubblewrap? What if you didn't get the first turn or have the initiative seized? Surely you're leaving 500pts of your army out front and vulnerable?
I tend to advance the Seraphim with the rest of my army, using Rhinos to shield them, and then leap them into the fray to cause havoc. With the new Dominion, I'm likely to take some and scout if I can, but I do think there's room for both unit types.
Depends on who deploys first and gets the first turn really. You could easily respond to getting to deploy second by outflanking rather than deploying or if you get first turn and expect a block off (if they have enough vehicles to do so) then scout close but still able to engage the next turn. Usually if most armies wall off like that you can blow their "wall" vehicles out the water with exorcists. *shrugs* When it comes to scouts, generally the more...the more effective they are. One unit? Well thats not scary. Two? well I may need to focus those? Three? Oh gee those will be a problem. Using 2-3 outflankers means by chance you'll definetly get some that go on the sides you want as well. Knowing they have possible AT flankers means your opponent tends to focus more down the center, restricting their deployment choices
Personally I am not all into speculating on mindgames, but for the most part thats what I think when faced against outflanking troops that have decent anti-tank...keep my tanks away from the edges. But if I split my troops on the edges to "protect" my vehicles then I usually am spread out to thin, etc. Again *shrugs* think it'll be one of the more consistantly discussed points for awhile on "seraphim or dominions" but, as you said, it may end up just being "seraphim and dominions"
How dare you sir!?All of this is really just a lot of speculation without the exact point costs, but I think the OP is underrating seraphim.
Seriously though, I think the new rules for Seraphim are sweet. And rumors will say they are 14 points, making them incredibly cheap for 3+ save jump packers. The problem is, Dominions with Scouts are exactly what the army needs. The one thing that SoB truly need is long range anti-tank, or failing that, a surefire way to get meltaguns into the enemy's back field. Dominions provide that because Scout moves always work, they always get to move halfway across no-man's land before the game even starts.
Seraphim don't provide that. If they deep strike, it's very risky, especially if you want them to land close enough to fire their melta pistols on the turn they arrive. Plus, if you deep strike them, by the time they actually arrive they may be too late to salvage the game.
Xelloss makes a very excellent point, that with 3x units of Dominions you can achieve local superiority. You don't run the Dominions right into the enemy's teeth, you strike a flank or an isolated part of his army. This forces the enemy to either absorb the harassment, to his detriment, or divert forces to go after the dominions, keeping pressure off your main force. Either way, it solves SoB's principle problem: that for the first turn, you ordinarily do almost no damage to the enemy and just get pounded by his ranged fire. The first turn of eating lascannons and missile launchers with only Exorcists for retaliation can end the game if the enemy's anti-tank rolls well. Dominions have the potential to negate that because of how they can force the enemy to divert his attention or contribute significantly to an alpha strike.
Bubble wrap is a bigger problem for Dominions, but it's more of a problem for Seraphim. Dominions can tank shock through bubble wrap, potentially forcing it to flee. You might also be able to tank shock the edge of a bubble wrap unit, knocking enough inches off its radius to hit the protected tanks with your meltas. Seraphim, on the other hand, can't do anything but assault the bubble wrap--their melta range is so short they can't expect to bypass it in any way. Assaulting the bubble wrap is a good thing if your goal is to get rid of it, but your true goal is to hit the tanks it protects. Plus, deep striking phim can't show up until turn 2, and can't assault until turn 3... If the bubble wrap is still there on turn 3, it's done its job and may well have won the game for your opponent.
As for outflanking Dominions, the only time I'd consider it would be Dawn of War, where normal scout moves aren't possible. In that case, since you can't make your normal scout move, you're not really losing anything by outflanking, though you're still taking a risk that an important part of your army doesn't join the fight until too late (or it joins on the wrong side). The same reasons why deep striking Seraphim doesn't work apply to outflanking Dominions. But even that tactic beats deep striking Seraphim, because at least there aren't any mishaps.
Last edited by Ixe; 27-07-2011 at 03:02.
"That thou wouldst bring them only death,/ That thou shouldst spare none,/ That thou shouldst pardon none/ We beseech thee, destroy them."
-Battle Hymn of the Adepta Sororitas
What would you think if dominions were only allowed 2 special weapons per 5? How about 3?How dare you sir!?
Seriously though, I think the new rules for Seraphim are sweet. And rumors will say they are 14 points, making them incredibly cheap for 3+ save jump packers. The problem is, Dominions with Scouts are exactly what the army needs. The one thing that SoB truly need is long range anti-tank, or failing that, a surefire way to get meltaguns into the enemy's back field. Dominions provide that because Scout moves always work, they always get to move halfway across no-man's land before the game even starts.
Seraphim don't provide that. If they deep strike, it's very risky, especially if you want them to land close enough to fire their melta pistols on the turn they arrive. Plus, if you deep strike them, by the time they actually arrive they may be too late to salvage the game.
Xelloss makes a very excellent point, that with 3x units of Dominions you can achieve local superiority. You don't run the Dominions right into the enemy's teeth, you strike a flank or an isolated part of his army. This forces the enemy to either absorb the harassment, to his detriment, or divert forces to go after the dominions, keeping pressure off your main force. Either way, it solves SoB's principle problem: that for the first turn, you ordinarily do almost no damage to the enemy and just get pounded by his ranged fire. The first turn of eating lascannons and missile launchers with only Exorcists for retaliation can end the game if the enemy's anti-tank rolls well. Dominions have the potential to negate that because of how they can force the enemy to divert his attention or contribute significantly to an alpha strike.
Bubble wrap is a bigger problem for Dominions, but it's more of a problem for Seraphim. Dominions can tank shock through bubble wrap, potentially forcing it to flee. You might also be able to tank shock the edge of a bubble wrap unit, knocking enough inches off its radius to hit the protected tanks with your meltas. Seraphim, on the other hand, can't do anything but assault the bubble wrap--their melta range is so short they can't expect to bypass it in any way. Assaulting the bubble wrap is a good thing if your goal is to get rid of it, but your true goal is to hit the tanks it protects. Plus, deep striking phim can't show up until turn 2, and can't assault until turn 3... If the bubble wrap is still there on turn 3, it's done its job and may well have won the game for your opponent.
As for outflanking Dominions, the only time I'd consider it would be Dawn of War, where normal scout moves aren't possible. In that case, since you can't make your normal scout move, you're not really losing anything by outflanking, though you're still taking a risk that an important part of your army doesn't join the fight until too late (or it joins on the wrong side). The same reasons why deep striking Seraphim doesn't work apply to outflanking Dominions. But even that tactic beats deep striking Seraphim, because at least there aren't any mishaps.
If Immolators can't be fast I'd honestly consider taking dominions at pretty high numbers anyway. Rhinos cheaper and means you may be able to afford taking a larger squad in case you explode and need a buffer for your meltas to not die. Otherwise man that would sure hurt dominions since they sound pretty much one of the best units we got so far.
Dominions can also serve as bait, drawing enemy infantry out of their transports.
I've used this tactic a lot, using small Celestian squads, and it works. In some instances, my opponents bunch up his troops, which is convenient when my Battle Sisters rolls in delivering template death.
Last edited by SabrX; 27-07-2011 at 04:28.
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Meh! They'd still be worth it. 2x twin-linkable meltas is likely enough, or if I had the points, I wouldn't mind grabbing 10 girls with 4 meltas. It might even be a better idea to grab 2x melta, 2x flamer. With Scouts, they're worth almost any price, but rumor has it they're becoming super cheap, which is even better
"That thou wouldst bring them only death,/ That thou shouldst spare none,/ That thou shouldst pardon none/ We beseech thee, destroy them."
-Battle Hymn of the Adepta Sororitas
The 2X meltaguns + 2X flamer is a flexible configuration and draws less fire to the Dominions if your forces also includes Celestians with 2 meltaguns. I've used this configuration a lot in my Immy Spam army. Dominion's TL-shooting faith ability will make it much more effective.
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IF penitent's have moved to elites - a unit of one/two in reserves could really screw up deepstrikers / outflankers.
It's not like rage is an issue when there's only one target and you want it to die as quickly as possible.
EDIT: unless they outflank with a vehicle and kite the PE away with it - dastards.
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Sisters of Battle & Epic Superheavies Modular Imperial City board Varyngr: It's Dwarvish for Squat
Driving while drunk - Looted DE Orks a Sewer's based Cityfight Serendipitous Skittari – Ad Mech
Aquanautica Fleets Tzeentech Mutants casting experiments
That's a nice idea mad! I'd only do it against assault opponents who are going to run towards me, though. Against shooty opponents, I have to run towards them, and PEs (assuming they are pointed properly) will be instrumental in eating enemy fire that would otherwise target my transports. But against an assault opponent that comes to me, PEs in reserves would be great for smashing those darn outflanking deffkoptas.
"That thou wouldst bring them only death,/ That thou shouldst spare none,/ That thou shouldst pardon none/ We beseech thee, destroy them."
-Battle Hymn of the Adepta Sororitas
A couple of questions about the Celestian faith power, "Hand of the Emperor"
A unit is falling back and uses it in their assault phase (even though not in an assault). Does the temporary gain of Fearless till the end of that phase mean that the portion of the fearless rule that states that if a unit that is falling back suddenly gains Fearless it will automatically regroup at the start of its next movement phase will kick in, even though it will no longer BE fearless at that point, but did gain it at some point in the fall back? Whew that was a mouthful!
Also the stacking issue with faith powers. As written, does it seem reasonable to be able to multi cast faith powers such as "Hand of the Emperor" and "The Passion" to gain more than the +1 to Init and Str?
Stacking won't last long; a FAQ will quash any attempts. As for the fearless, offhand I'd say sure, unless said FAQ messes with that.
As far as Repentia, I'm not counting them out yet; coupled with Uriah and twenty of the virgins and you've got yourself a party, I don't care what you say, 30 (Assuming ten girls survive to charge) strength 6 2d6 AP strikes w/ rerolls are going to put holes in whatever the hell they've launched at.
Not saying they're the most effective, but the other guy is going to cry.
Stacking is pretty obviously not allowed. It says "An Act of Faith can be attempted immediately before a Sisters of Battle unit acts during a phase." Note the "an." Each unit may attempt one Act of Faith immediately before it acts. If you could use multiple Acts with the same unit, it would say "Acts of faith can be attempted..."
Being Fearless until the end of the assault phase wouldn't help you if you were already falling back, I don't think. You regroup at the start of your next movement phase, but at the start of your next movement phase your Fearless is gone.
"That thou wouldst bring them only death,/ That thou shouldst spare none,/ That thou shouldst pardon none/ We beseech thee, destroy them."
-Battle Hymn of the Adepta Sororitas
...it has to gain fearless in the assault phase. Hmm but it says just if a unit gains fearless, it doesn't state when it has to gain it. So I think this might be something people will question numerous times and might be FAQ'd to be more clear...but so far I would say RAW supports fearless in assault phase = magically regrouping next movement phase.
Ixe: fearless just says "if a unit that is falling back suddenly gains this rule, it will automatically regroup at the beginning of its next movement phase, regardless of all normal restrictions". It doesnt say WHEN it has to gain the rule, but if it does...they regroup next movement phase (well your next movement phase). I think RAW supports fearless on any phase = cancels fallback next movement phase. Sounds like it is something that will be FAQ's against and make it so you still have to be fearless in the movement phase to get it.
Last edited by WallWeasels; 28-07-2011 at 04:25.
Hm, sounds like you may be right.
What about the Act of Faith language, however, that says it may be used before the unit acts in the phase? A unit that is falling back in the assault phase can't act at all. By RAW, you can't cast the power unless you're able to act, i.e. move, shoot, or assault.
"That thou wouldst bring them only death,/ That thou shouldst spare none,/ That thou shouldst pardon none/ We beseech thee, destroy them."
-Battle Hymn of the Adepta Sororitas
Wait a minute, it says in the PDF that in the assault phase powers are used before you strike. If you are falling back...who are you striking to be "before striking"? So that pretty much is the nail in the head there :x However I would state that "before the phase" clauses would ignore the ability to not act. This is how you could use Light of the Emperor before...you can't act before you regroup so how did they use faith to regroup? etc etc
Yeah, makes sense.
OMG, a rules debate that didn't devolve into a flame war! WHERE AM I!? DID I FALL INTO ANOTHER UNIVERSE!?
"That thou wouldst bring them only death,/ That thou shouldst spare none,/ That thou shouldst pardon none/ We beseech thee, destroy them."
-Battle Hymn of the Adepta Sororitas
no **** you loser zomg! get a life man debating roolz on a interbutt forumz
But yeah...I think lighto f the emperor was special because it was done "before" you had a lack of choice and thats why it worked. So if this power was done anything happened in the assault phase...sure it would work. But it requires "before you strike" and you can't be "before" you strike if you arent going to :d
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