Ogre Rumours MK.II

[ihavetoomuchminis]

Four Mournfangs(2 on the front and 2 supporting) kill nearly 15 skaven slaves on the charge, and more than 10 afterwards. They are fully capable of grinding big blocks or breaking them on the charge with a bit of shooting or magic support. The weakness you write down are not different than those suffered by a moderately sized infantry block.

I really hope that you're talking about slaves as a reference, and not because you play skavens......

No skaven player should be allowed to complain about brokeness. Even more when complaining about things that haven't been tested yet, and that HAVE weakness. I'm not talking about manouvers or steadfast. I'm talking about models expensive points-wise, with Initiative 2 and Leadership 7, surrounded with low model count units.

Low initiative is a GREAT weakness. Not only in Combat, but against the well known Ini-test spells (wich skaven have 1 that remove models, if i'm not wrong). Sum the big bases to that, and you have a unit that can be killed with a non powered pit of shades or a pendulum (or the skaven ini-test spell).

Leadership 7 is another great weakness. They can be panicked with ease. Just kill the easier to kill units near, and make them pass the test or run.

Yes, you can use General's leadership and BSB re-roll, but Ogres would have a hard time protecting their characters from cannons, stone-throwers and so on, because the low model count of the units, so easier to remove the LoS save (remember that the unit's champion doesn't count for LoS purposes, so to protect a character one Ogre player should protect his characters with at least a 6 model unit, counting full command).

So..... Good? Yes. Broken. Absolutely not.

Tools to deal with them in no-close combat.

Death magic: Purple sun. The signature spell too.

Metal magic: Obvious. Signature spell.

Shadows: Pendulum, Pit of shades.

Skaven magic: The ini-test spell.

Cannons, stone-throwers, Bolt-throwers. Multi-wound warmachines.

Handguns. Massive shooting. High strenght shooting (Jezzails).

These things don't require a special tactical genius to use. The mournfangs are not like an HPA or a hydra (who have high chances of killing an entire 3 model unit in a single round, obviously taking some wounds in return...).

Made up.

Though given that basic Ogres (Bulls) now start with light armour and don't have any visible armour other than their gut plate, you could say that it's the plate that gives them a 6+ save. Tyrants with heavy armour won't have 4+ saves, though.

Wich in fact means that ogre bulls are 4 gnoblars cheaper, and not just 2.5 :P. With a 6 man unit, equipped with ironfist, and guessing that this upgrade has the cost of a gnoblar, you save 43 gnoblars respect the current army book.

[jtrowell]

excuse me Scammel, can i ask you some doubts?

1)Do Ogres on ranks behind the first (so 2nd,3rd rank etc) inflict impact hits? so 6 ogres unit would cause 6 impact hits (or 6d3!!!!)?

Only the first rank get Impact hits, but you add the current rank bonus to the Stregnth of the impacts, so for exemple 6 bulls in 3x2 would inflict 3 S5 impact hits (or 3d3 if you manage a 10+ charge)

[quote]
2)The 10+ roll = D3 impact hits only refers to the dice roll or it's the total charge distance so Ogres have M6 and you just need a 4+ on dice?


It's probably 10+ on the dice, not the distance.

3)can the Hunter move AND fire or it's still move OR fire?

Depends on what weapon you use, the hunter has great throwing spears with range of 12 (I think), but the crossbow is move or fire, unless the hunter is mounted.

4)Do Sabertusks have Storm of Magic upgrade options like Killing Blow +3points etc?

From what I know, they only get vanguard when deployed with a hunter in the unit, nothing else, but there might be something else.

Thanks

[jtrowell]

A birdie told me that the leadbelchers might have (greatly ?) increased range from before, but no longer ignore the long range modifier.

[innerwolf]

If your "metagame" dictates that units shouldn't be more than 30 strong, maybe it could also dictate that cats shouldn't be more than 2+. That, or maybe that metagame is silly and it ought to evolve beyond 7th ed mentality, into 8th ed.

We dont do it because we like it, but because we cant rebuild our armies to have huge hordes(i dislike fielding few,enormous units, but thats not the reason). We dont want to be forced to buy,build and deploy such units.

[innerwolf]

I really hope that you're talking about slaves as a reference, and not because you play skavens......

No skaven player should be allowed to complain about brokeness. Even more when complaining about things that haven't been tested yet, and that HAVE weakness. I'm not talking about manouvers or steadfast. I'm talking about models expensive points-wise, with Initiative 2 and Leadership 7, surrounded with low model count units.

Low initiative is a GREAT weakness. Not only in Combat, but against the well known Ini-test spells (wich skaven have 1 that remove models, if i'm not wrong). Sum the big bases to that, and you have a unit that can be killed with a non powered pit of shades or a pendulum (or the skaven ini-test spell).

Leadership 7 is another great weakness. They can be panicked with ease. Just kill the easier to kill units near, and make them pass the test or run.

Yes, you can use General's leadership and BSB re-roll, but Ogres would have a hard time protecting their characters from cannons, stone-throwers and so on, because the low model count of the units, so easier to remove the LoS save (remember that the unit's champion doesn't count for LoS purposes, so to protect a character one Ogre player should protect his characters with at least a 6 model unit, counting full command).

So..... Good? Yes. Broken. Absolutely not.

Tools to deal with them in no-close combat.

Death magic: Purple sun. The signature spell too.

Metal magic: Obvious. Signature spell.

Shadows: Pendulum, Pit of shades.

Skaven magic: The ini-test spell.

Cannons, stone-throwers, Bolt-throwers. Multi-wound warmachines.

Handguns. Massive shooting. High strenght shooting (Jezzails).

These things don't require a special tactical genius to use. The mournfangs are not like an HPA or a hydra (who have high chances of killing an entire 3 model unit in a single round, obviously taking some wounds in return...).

I was talking about sheer stats. All those counters are right and make them beteable, but iyasnt my point

[Urgat]

Then the first half of my post applies. But the fact you people can't afford larger units to counter it doesn't make the unit itself overpowered It just means it's not fit for your games, much like a, dunno, a baneblade would have no place in your circle.

[DiddyKong]

I'm sorry if this has been mentioned, I did a thread search and nothing came up, so thought I'd check, but again, sorry if it's already been discussed, I was just wondering if anyone knows anything about the limited minitaures at games day?

"This year the Games Day sales area will be crammed full with new miniatures together with a selection of our most popular models. If you're quick, you might be lucky enough to get your hands on some of the limited number of brand-new plastic kits and Citadel Finecast Ogre Kingdoms miniatures."

Does this mean they will only have many of the kits at games day, or will they be games day only models? I apoligise if I'm being stupid....

[ihavetoomuchminis]

I was talking about sheer stats. All those counters are right and make them beteable, but iyasnt my point

So.....wich was your point?

[HiDeke]

Ironguts are no longer available on GW site that I can see. Is this an indication that they will have new sculpts sooner than later?

Do they usually pull them prior to being released to avoid overlap? I'm not sure how those things work.

[jtrowell]

Plastic kits are not made for limited releases, the mold are more expesive that the ones used for metal or resin and so are only used for mass production, so don't worryn any plastic kit sold during GamesDay will be available later.

However, the promotionnal Skaven miniature that you get for goring to GD *is* a limited miniature only available there (and on ebay later of course).

[loveless]

"This year the Games Day sales area will be crammed full with new miniatures together with a selection of our most popular models. If you're quick, you might be lucky enough to get your hands on some of the limited number of brand-new plastic kits and Citadel Finecast Ogre Kingdoms miniatures."

Does this mean they will only have many of the kits at games day, or will they be games day only models? I apoligise if I'm being stupid....

Given the wording, I'd say that means they have a (small) quantity of the new OK products at Games Day - so anything available there you'll be able to get later on.

From what I recall (and remember from personal experience), one of the selling points of Games Day was access to new releases ahead of official release dates. Of course, last time I went was just before the Dark Elf book was released...so who knows what the deal is now?

[innerwolf]

So.....wich was your point?

That they are the killiest unit released to that point, and near-overpowered basic infantry murderers. I admit other units could get closer results when pitted against elite heavy infantry.

[jtrowell]

Ironguts are no longer available on GW site that I can see. Is this an indication that they will have new sculpts sooner than later?

Do they usually pull them prior to being released to avoid overlap? I'm not sure how those things work.

Probably just a repackaging.

If we're lucky, they will recup the sprues to add some new options, but I'm starting to find this unprobable.

If we're not lucky, they will recut the sprues to sell the boxes with less models for almost the same price.

A middle ground might be that we get both ...

If they do like they did for the Tomb Kings, we can expect a new Bataillon more expensive with probably the same content and only a few more models (like 15 or 16 bull instead of 14, or some more gnoblars but for 20 euros more)

[Hannimar]

That they are the killiest unit released to that point, and near-overpowered basic infantry murderers. I admit other units could get closer results when pitted against elite heavy infantry.

Hmmm was it really that hard to guess that a cavalry unit of Ogres will be the hardest hitting cavalry?

[npow34]

"This year the Games Day sales area will be crammed full with new miniatures together with a selection of our most popular models. If you're quick, you might be lucky enough to get your hands on some of the limited number of brand-new plastic kits and Citadel Finecast Ogre Kingdoms miniatures."

So this confuses me given that the Ogre Kingdoms White Dwarf will be released on August 27th...doesn't that mean we will be getting the new rule book and miniatures in September as well? If they release a limited amount at Games Day UK then that would mean the rest of us won't get our hands on them until October, right?

[Belakor]

I think you will get the second wave at gamesday, the first on september 3rd including the three plastic sets already seen.

[npow34]

I hope you are right. I need thundertusks and battle hamsters....I mean mournfangs.

[Tokamak]

With all the incentives to keep your units as wide as possible I'm not in the least worried about these things, or wait, my units are insanely wide, I should be worried.

[Enkiel]

Four Mournfangs(2 on the front and 2 supporting) kill nearly 15 skaven slaves on the charge, and more than 10 afterwards. They are fully capable of grinding big blocks or breaking them on the charge with a bit of shooting or magic support. The weakness you write down are not different than those suffered by a moderately sized infantry block.

so you're comparing 2+ Cavalry at 70 pt each with 2 pts core unit?

to be worth his point, a Mournfang would have to kill 35 Slaves EACH...

I'd rather compare them to something meatier. they're in the bloodcrusher price range, so how about a real comparison with a comparable unit?

[Lukasz_VT]

Don't feed the innerwolf.