Pistolier tactics

[Deathbysoup]

Hi guys.

I have a 2000pts empire army and Ive been looking at investing to make it 2400pts. Ive looked at pistoliers and I dont know how to use them, some people swear by them and think they are the best thing since sliced bread.

As far as I can see after you have moved and multiple shots you are hitting on 6s and hitting on 6s with stand and shoot as well so I dont really know where their strengths lie, at 18pts a pop as well they arent cheap. I could just add a mass of flagellants instead.

Any advice would be appreciated

[Memnos]

Pistols used to be:

No penalty to move and shoot.

No penalty for long range.

The best tactic for pistoliers is to leave them at home.

[KimikoPT]

Pistols used to be:

No penalty to move and shoot.

No penalty for long range.

The best tactic for pistoliers is to leave them at home.

Tell that to my pistoliers, that managed in the same game to kill a Hellcannon, and finished off a Warrior unit that was fleeing.

[Deathbysoup]

heh, divided opinion much?

[Welshdragon04]

I've not yet used them and I'm in my the same position. As has been said there used to be no modifier for long range, still none for moving but 6's to hit is a bugger, as you say 18 point each is a large price to pay when you consider what the alternatives are.

[Von Wibble]

By my reckoning its 5s to hit not 6s. You can march and fire with no penalty (fast cav + quick to fire + vanguard move should ensure you are in short range). You shoud place them within 3" of teh enemy unit, in such a way that if it charges it is redirected and your knights get a flank charge - therefore the sensible thing is not to charge.

The unit in general acts as an annoyance and redirector that can do damage with its shots including stand and shoot.

Accept that they won't survive a game and they are a brilliant unit in the role above.

I can't think of any other empire units that are fast and capable of redirecting for less than 100 points so I don't know what the alternatives you mention are??

[stashman]

Vanguard, marchblock, shoot at small support units and warmachines. Charge fleeing units!

Harass big units and be ready to flank them, Flee from charges and rally just to harass some more!

[KimikoPT]

Von Wibble said it all. Don´t forget that they can also flee from a charge and if you rally them (i always put a musician to help on this) you can go march and fire again.

[Okuto]

leave them at home *sniff*

most big units could care less if you "harass" them with pistoliers(they're still slamming into your frontlines and smashing it apart)......and many people dont take the small support units anymore unless your meta is different...

also they cost to much for what they do when you look at more point effective killyness.

I would say dont bother and get some flaggies...they are a much better investment...

[wingate32]

Since the models also can be assembled to Outriders I use them instead, Vanguard, shoot the hell out of anything in range and use from to charge fleeing units when prompted. Repeater Handguns can really deal great damage to smaller units with their S4 Armour piercing.

[Von Wibble]

leave them at home *sniff*

most big units could care less if you "harass" them with pistoliers(they're still slamming into your frontlines and smashing it apart)......and many people dont take the small support units anymore unless your meta is different...

I would say dont bother and get some flaggies...they are a much better investment...

The point is that the enemy units can't smash your frontlines as easily if your pistoliers redirect them. They are put in the position where they have to either move around the pistoliers, wasting time, or charge the pistoliers, which either slows them down (if they don't overrun) or puts them in a difficult position with their facing determined by the empire player (if they do overrun).

Its a win win for the Empire army.

Obviously the counter to this is shooting and magic - but it still takes a bit of concerntation of firepoweer to take out the pistoliers, and this is pressure the rest of the army isn't facing.

You can't compare Pistoliers to flagellants or outriders any more than you can compare handgunners to knights and greatswords. Completely different roles.

[Morax]

By my reckoning its 5s to hit not 6s. You can march and fire with no penalty (fast cav + quick to fire + vanguard move should ensure you are in short range). You shoud place them within 3" of teh enemy unit, in such a way that if it charges it is redirected and your knights get a flank charge - therefore the sensible thing is not to charge.

The unit in general acts as an annoyance and redirector that can do damage with its shots including stand and shoot.

Accept that they won't survive a game and they are a brilliant unit in the role above.

I can't think of any other empire units that are fast and capable of redirecting for less than 100 points so I don't know what the alternatives you mention are??

In the above redirector role the unit would either, take a leadership test and redirect the charge at the knights if you fled or crush the unit of pistoliers in a single combat phase and then reform facing the knights. Win win for the enemy unit as they have, made a unit flee and potentially taken the charge away from the knights or gotten a bonus 100 points or so for killing the pistoliers before taking the charge to the front from a unit of knights they were likely to fight anyway.

5's to hit with 10 shots doesn't strike me as potentially damaging. 1-2 wounds per tunr are not likely to threaten much and that is assuming they are shooting at toughness 3 models.

Vanguard, marchblock, shoot at small support units and warmachines. Charge fleeing units!

Harass big units and be ready to flank them, Flee from charges and rally just to harass some more!

Vanguard is nice, marchblock is net to useless in 8th with most armies getting a leaderhsip reroll from a bsb, small support units are usually skirmishers and therefore even harder to hit with the poor ballistic skill of a pistolier and warmachines die faster to an accurate cannon shot which if you include the musician cost about the same.

leave them at home *sniff*

most big units could care less if you "harass" them with pistoliers(they're still slamming into your frontlines and smashing it apart)......and many people dont take the small support units anymore unless your meta is different...

also they cost to much for what they do when you look at more point effective killyness.

I would say dont bother and get some flaggies...they are a much better investment...

Spot on.

Since the models also can be assembled to Outriders I use them instead, Vanguard, shoot the hell out of anything in range and use from to charge fleeing units when prompted. Repeater Handguns can really deal great damage to smaller units with their S4 Armour piercing.

Again spot on. For a few extra points per model you gain the same benefit that the pistoliers bring to the table and get some acctually damaging shooting out of outriders. The outrider champion with hochland longrifle is also a nice bonus as he has the highest ballistic skill that can take a longrifle at a 5.

The point is that the enemy units can't smash your frontlines as easily if your pistoliers redirect them. They are put in the position where they have to either move around the pistoliers, wasting time, or charge the pistoliers, which either slows them down (if they don't overrun) or puts them in a difficult position with their facing determined by the empire player (if they do overrun).

Its a win win for the Empire army.

Obviously the counter to this is shooting and magic - but it still takes a bit of concerntation of firepoweer to take out the pistoliers, and this is pressure the rest of the army isn't facing.

You can't compare Pistoliers to flagellants or outriders any more than you can compare handgunners to knights and greatswords. Completely different roles.

100 points is a lot to slow something down or force a unit out of position when you have 25 point free company that do the same thing.

As to concentrated firepower, unless you are fielding 10 or more killing 2 is enough to force a panic check. A unit of 10 elf bowmen can get that done in a single turn and at leadership 7 they are not all that likely to stick around.

All in all the pistolier is not in its heyday. A simple point reduction would correct this and I would think that it will be forthcomming in the next empire book. A look at the O&G codex shows us that GW knows old codex calvary are over point cost at the moment.

[Jo-Jo]

most big units could care less if you "harass" them with pistoliers(they're still slamming into your frontlines and smashing it apart)

Sorry I have to put this here. for the grammar

I esentially agree with Okuto though, get flaggies, or at least make them as outriders.

[Deathbysoup]

ok, so a bit of a divided opinion then. I am likely to just get another cannon instead. As I found out last night, I suffer greatly against multiwounded armies(got smushed by ogres)

[Tuttivillus]

pistoliers are excellent as a heavy cav/infantry killers, put them on a flank and fire your 12 shots (8 on 5+, 4 on 4+) and just watch. I've managed to wipe out 5 Blood Knights: in shooting phase i took down 3 of them, the other 2 in a stand&shoot reaction. That paid off well(and they did have flag of the blood keep).
They also do well against war machines and as a chasers. Can help to bring down some monsters too.
I don't use them as a redirectors, it is just not pointwise. They are specialist unit and treat them like that. Theirs most essential asset is to march and fire hard hitting missiles. They can outmanouvre(i'm not sure if i spelled that word correctly) most of h/cav units and give them a solid punch in the side or back.

[yabbadabba]

Pistolliers have become a unit for a certain purpose. My regular opponents are greenskins and Pistolliers are great for hunting War Machines, fleeing models, single models and for removing that all important rank bonus on some units, or for sniping a wound or two off a gribbly. They can allow your other units to focus on other targets instead of mopping up especially in pursuit when supporting a combat. They can in the right circumstances make a mess of small T3 units/models

However there will be some armies you would not want to take them against. For instance they are almost useless against Dwarves unless you have a game with objectives to capture.

I'd bring them in as a variant unit once you have a hardcore army established at the size you want.

[Von Wibble]

100 points is a lot to slow something down or force a unit out of position when you have 25 point free company that do the same thing.

As to concentrated firepower, unless you are fielding 10 or more killing 2 is enough to force a panic check. A unit of 10 elf bowmen can get that done in a single turn and at leadership 7 they are not all that likely to stick around.

That 25 point free company has move 4 and no vanguard or shooting, making it vastly inferior in the role. And Ld 7, although not brilliant, is still more likely to pass than fail, also remember panic checks are taken at the end of the shooting phase, so that elf player may need to get another unit to shoot to make absolutely sure. Finally, even if the check is failed, with a musician (still under 100 for the unit) you have a good chance of rallying ready to harass another day.

I agree they are not a good choice against dwarfs. I also agree pistoliers are worth more like 14pts each currently. But I wouldn't disregard them as useless at all.

[Morax]

Pistolliers have become a unit for a certain purpose. My regular opponents are greenskins and Pistolliers are great for hunting War Machines, fleeing models, single models and for removing that all important rank bonus on some units, or for sniping a wound or two off a gribbly. They can allow your other units to focus on other targets instead of mopping up especially in pursuit when supporting a combat. They can in the right circumstances make a mess of small T3 units/models

However there will be some armies you would not want to take them against. For instance they are almost useless against Dwarves unless you have a game with objectives to capture.

I'd bring them in as a variant unit once you have a hardcore army established at the size you want.

Cannons are just better at warmachine hunting, single character sniping, taking off a rank bonus, and killing the big gribbly by and large. That leaves mopping up and making a mess of small units. Mopping up is their strongest suit but a small unit of knights does that just as well if not better as they have a higher leadership, cost around the same, have a greatly increased chance of surviving contact with opposing troops, and come out of the core allotment. While I have now taken double the point cost by choosing a small unit of knights and a cannon over the pistoliers, both are not only better at the same job but a multi-purpose beyond the job of pistoliers enough that they will always have something to do during a turn.

That 25 point free company has move 4 and no vanguard or shooting, making it vastly inferior in the role. And Ld 7, although not brilliant, is still more likely to pass than fail, also remember panic checks are taken at the end of the shooting phase, so that elf player may need to get another unit to shoot to make absolutely sure. Finally, even if the check is failed, with a musician (still under 100 for the unit) you have a good chance of rallying ready to harass another day.

I agree they are not a good choice against dwarfs. I also agree pistoliers are worth more like 14pts each currently. But I wouldn't disregard them as useless at all.

No Vanguard or shooting for 72 points less is a steal. Fitting in 4 units to one makes up for the reduction of movement as it allows me to harass 4 times guaranteed instead of having to worry about leadership tests. Add in that most empire armies want to sit still for a turn or two while the warmachines do their thing and that loss of movement becomes moot. Your detatchments should be 8-16 inches ahead of the line anway.

Panic tests from heavy casualties are taken immediately (pg 62 BRB). So that elf player will know right away if he can move on to something else.

pistoliers are excellent as a heavy cav/infantry killers, put them on a flank and fire your 12 shots (8 on 5+, 4 on 4+) and just watch. I've managed to wipe out 5 Blood Knights: in shooting phase i took down 3 of them, the other 2 in a stand&shoot reaction. That paid off well(and they did have flag of the blood keep).
They also do well against war machines and as a chasers. Can help to bring down some monsters too.
I don't use them as a redirectors, it is just not pointwise. They are specialist unit and treat them like that. Theirs most essential asset is to march and fire hard hitting missiles. They can outmanouvre(i'm not sure if i spelled that word correctly) most of h/cav units and give them a solid punch in the side or back.

The average kills for that unit of pistoliers against that same unit of blood knights is .58 per turn. Not something I want to bank on for eliminating hard to kill models.

Getting them into combat is near suicide with their low armor saves, weapon skill, initiative and attacks. The will more then likely wind up giving, not only their points away, but a bonus to combat res to your opponent.

Their best role at current is a mop up unit that moves around in your opponents back field and keeps units running. The problem with that role is multifaceted.

-Your army is going to have templates flying around back there from your warmachine fire, you may well kill a few of them yourself causing dangerous panic tests.

-At 97 points for a unit of 5 with a musician, they are expensive enough for them to swing things in your opponents favor if killed.

-Leadership 7, even with a musician gives you over a 30% chance of failure when trying to rally. Chancy if they are not near the bsb, which if they are doing their job right they shouldn't be, for a reroll.

Uesless? No. Are there much better expenditures of points in the empire army book? Yes at current. Once they come down in points, say that 14pts per model that Von Wibble mentioned, they may be more usable. Untill then I would leave them on the shelf looking pretty.

[yabbadabba]

@Morax - I see your points but this is all purely opinion. My Pistolliers have done very well for me up to date, and cannons and knights have other uses in my army.

[abdulaapocolyps]

I think both camps are right.
They are a bit overpriced, everyone agrees on this.
If you are of a mind set that thinks that flagellants are better as they would win in a fight, you are never going to be able to get any use out of fast cav.
If you look at the skills of fast cav,along with their weapon load out, and see the tactical possibilities of them won't be able to see a list without them!is there any point in going back and forth with one side giving mathematical stats as to how combat units are better and the other stating the tactical pulses, two different though processes.