Pistolier tactics

[SilasOfTheLambs]

Here's another couple uses for pistoliers that haven't been mentioned. Take an infantry unit that scares your squishy state troopers. Let's call it, hypothetically, "khorne halberd warriors" or "temple guard with slann" or "bloodletters" or even "black guard."

Step 1: Place your pistoliers in front of it, one inch further away than their base movement.

Step 2: Shoot them. You might kill one or two. Meh.

Your opponent now has a choice. He can either charge them, and he has to roll higher on 2 dice than you roll on swiftstride. This is exceedingly rare. In effect, you have just reduced the movement of this very scary unit to d6 per turn. This gives your guns (you DID bring some guns, right?) a couple of extra turns to shoot them, because the thing is, you can rally and do this again every single phase.

This will work best when facing an army like lizardmen or chaos that lacks any cavalry that can chase you down.

Also worth noting is that pistoliers can go and stand on a mangla squig. Sometimes it's worth it.

They're not useless, but they're limited enough that they rarely make it in my lists under 2500. Above that point total, I rarely leave them out.

[mykerush]

Love pistoliers
They are my fave unit in all warhammer. Sometimes you just add units because they have a special place in your heart.
They might not do much some games, but every once and a while they take out a High Elf bolt thrower or use their can openers on a few chaos warriors.

[Wesser]

Personally I think Knights can do everything pistoliers can and do it better. Vanguard isnt all that useful, because noone in my meta are leaving so big a gap in their lines that pistoliers can slip through. Statistically pistolier shooting is close to zero. Sure, you may get lucky one day against some enemy knights or monster where you dice rolls just make it all come true, but on average a unit of pistoliers wont be able to dish out significant hurt.

Knights or detachments just seem a lot better considering how outrageously pistoliers are priced. They'd need to be a at least 4 points cheaper before I'd give them a glance

[danny-d-b]

Take pistoliers

chop off the pistols

add repeater handguns

play as outriders


there we go pistolirer tactcis for you

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Pistoliers weren't very good a year ago when this thread was born, and they aren't any worse or better a year and a new book later. As we've just discussed in the Tactica, they can still be used to divert (bait & flee), which is something they are pretty good at due to their mobility and a musician. Many players also still (again?) see chaff around which isn't skirmisher - ratdarts, dogs, bats and so on -, in which case their otherwise more than mediocre firepower can suffice.

Whether one is prepared to pay 65-75 points more for those advantages over 5 archers is a question to which there is no abolute answer.

[BooMeRLiNSKi]

Step 1: Place your pistoliers in front of it, one inch further away than their base movement.

You'll also need to angle them, because you are of course trying to redirect them. An angled unit at 5+ inches away to the closest model doesn't impede movement all that much.

Your opponent now has a choice. He can either charge them, and he has to roll higher on 2 dice than you roll on swiftstride. This is exceedingly rare. In effect, you have just reduced the movement of this very scary unit to d6 per turn. This gives your guns (you DID bring some guns, right?) a couple of extra turns to shoot them, because the thing is, you can rally and do this again every single phase.

Or he can move past them or redirect his charge against your main line (or shoot/magic/panic them off).

I see where you are going, but being that you have to angle AND put your unit at +1M away from the unit makes it ineffective and you still run a hefty risk of getting run down and he always his own flankers to declare charges that leaves you with your pistoliers setting up juicy overruns into your main line.

[Tupinamba]

You'll also need to angle them, because you are of course trying to redirect them. An angled unit at 5+ inches away to the closest model doesn't impede movement all that much.



Or he can move past them or redirect his charge against your main line (or shoot/magic/panic them off).

I see where you are going, but being that you have to angle AND put your unit at +1M away from the unit makes it ineffective and you still run a hefty risk of getting run down and he always his own flankers to declare charges that leaves you with your pistoliers setting up juicy overruns into your main line.

I think that in his example, you donīt have to angle the unit at all, as heīs not talking about redirection, but only speed reduction. In the first turns of the game, and particularly if using vanguard, you can just park the pistollier unit some inches in front of the big infantry block, so that the opponent canīt march around. If he charges, you flee and hope that swiftstride+ greater movement will let the pistoliers get away and that youīll be able to rally them with a musician afterwards. There wonīt be any other charges from the opponentīs infantry block, as the rest of your army is still too far away, so you have a more than reasonable chance of causing a failed charge and still keep the pistolliers alive.

In my oppinion, this kind of thing is even more valuable as a tactic to break up the enemy line, instead of only slowing it down for your shooting. If you did that, say, to the opponents centre-left and let the rest of him march forward, his line will be divided and subject to be attacked piecemeal, which is often enough of a threat that the opponent wonīt even march with the rest of the army.

In that same vein, of splitting the enemy battle line, fast cav can also be used to speed up an enemy unit and let it alone in the open for a combined attack, particularly against enemy cavalry/frenzied/ItP etc. If you put them on one flank at a distance from the opponentīs cavalry where it can be charged, say 15-17 inches, and he charges to get easy points, just stay and let your bait be killed. The enemy unit, particularly if you manage to slow down his centre/other flank, will be stranded alone in front of your line and can be combined charged with more than one unit and/or buffs. Frenzied, stupid, ItP etc. (think Khorne Knights...) units wonīt even be able to try to flee.

Of course, these uses are not easy to pull of and the baiting fast cav can be shot at, magicked at or charged by enemy chariotts etc. Itīs just one more tool in your tactics box and, IMO, a tool that still works fine.

[BooMeRLiNSKi]

I think that in his example, you donīt have to angle the unit at all, as heīs not talking about redirection, but only speed reduction. In the first turns of the game, and particularly if using vanguard, you can just park the pistollier unit some inches in front of the big infantry block, so that the opponent canīt march around. If he charges, you flee and hope that swiftstride+ greater movement will let the pistoliers get away and that youīll be able to rally them with a musician afterwards. There wonīt be any other charges from the opponentīs infantry block, as the rest of your army is still too far away, so you have a more than reasonable chance of causing a failed charge and still keep the pistolliers alive.

Assuming you get first turn and that he has no vanguard troops of his own. If you don't get first turn, he can march right up into their faces, charge, shoot or magic them off. All of which either leave you down the whole unit or with a unit heading through/towards your lines causing panic tests. Swiftstride only helps you get away if you are +1 inch out of the charging units base movement closest to closest, otherwise you are hoping that the best 2 of 3d6 will beat 2d6 + 4 at best (ok, less for dwarves).

Redirectors/speed bumps are good, ones at that cost are not. Outriders can get in for that crucial redirect whilst supplying effective shooting. Now if the pistoliers got the extra attack in CC and they were at str 4 ap... then they would be worth it.

[Jezbot]

As far as I can see after you have moved and multiple shots you are hitting on 6s and hitting on 6s with stand and shoot as well so I dont really know where their strengths lie, at 18pts a pop as well they arent cheap. I could just add a mass of flagellants instead.

Any advice would be appreciated

Vanguard 12" up the board, march to just inside of 6" of the enemy, careful not to get any closer or else you'll increase the chance of getting caught, fire at close range hitting on 5+, and expect to plink a couple of models. The enemy cannot march forward, and if they charge you flee, with a very high chance of escaping - the enemy then lumbers forward a few inches. You rally in your own turn (always pay for the musician), and march back to within 6" of the enemy in against to fire once more, plinking another couple of models and forcing them to make another failed charged.

This can keep a enemy unit away from your lines for a couple of extra turns, giving you time to shoot up the rest of his army, or gang up on his other units with your combat troops.

It isn't a perfect strategy, as there is always a chance of the enemy successfully pursuing your pistoliers (it's not likely, but make sure you stay outside of 5" from the enemy), and also a chance your pistoliers will fail to rally (even with a musician it's only Ld 8, so it become important to try and have your pistoliers fleeing into an area covered by your general or BSB). They're also very vulnerable to enemy ranged shooting, so their viability can depend largely on what enemy units you expect to face... but when used well, in the right environment they can be a really useful unit.

Pistols used to be:

No penalty to move and shoot.

No penalty for long range.

There's still penalty for move and shoot, so I don't know what you're talking about there. The penalty for long range only matters when you struggle to get a vanguarded, M8 fast cavalry unit with in 6" of the enemy... which is something no-one should ever struggle with.

most big units could care less if you "harass" them with pistoliers(they're still slamming into your frontlines and smashing it apart)......and many people dont take the small support units anymore unless your meta is different...

also they cost to much for what they do when you look at more point effective killyness.

Any unit, no matter how big it is, will find it takes longer to slam into your front ranks when there's a five strong unit of pistoliers standing 5.1" from their front every turn.

I would say dont bother and get some flaggies...they are a much better investment...

Now that's a unit that really is way overpriced for what it delivers.

ok, so a bit of a divided opinion then. I am likely to just get another cannon instead. As I found out last night, I suffer greatly against multiwounded armies(got smushed by ogres)

Having enough cannons to cover for big monsters is more important than the nice stuff pistoliers deliver.

I think both camps are right.
They are a bit overpriced, everyone agrees on this.

Yeah, I agree that at their current price they are limited to a very specific role, that not every might find useful to their army set up.

What surprises me is the number of people who comment on how they are used, and just get it so wildly wrong - people mentioning the penalty for moving & shooting, or the penalty for long range, or complaining they don't do enough damage for their points... they've obviously never seen them used properly in the field, and never tried to figure out how to use them themselves, but they didn't like the look of them in the book and want to tell everyone else all about that.

Here's another couple uses for pistoliers that haven't been mentioned. Take an infantry unit that scares your squishy state troopers. Let's call it, hypothetically, "khorne halberd warriors" or "temple guard with slann" or "bloodletters" or even "black guard."

Step 1: Place your pistoliers in front of it, one inch further away than their base movement.

Step 2: Shoot them. You might kill one or two. Meh.

Your opponent now has a choice. He can either charge them, and he has to roll higher on 2 dice than you roll on swiftstride. This is exceedingly rare. In effect, you have just reduced the movement of this very scary unit to d6 per turn. This gives your guns (you DID bring some guns, right?) a couple of extra turns to shoot them, because the thing is, you can rally and do this again every single phase.

EDIT - I left this here, but note I misread your post, and though you were saying to just place them 1" from the enemy unit. My apologies


Be very careful there - the enemy has their Movement stat plus 2D6 to charge, and while you get the highest 2 of 3D6 for your flee, you do not add your movement to that. As a result, if you put yourself just 1" from the enemy, you will be a swiftstride roll plus 1 inch from them, and they will be rolling 2D6 plus their move to catch you. Running the odds on this gives the enemy a 72% chance of catching you, likely giving them a faster than standard move that turn, and you giving up 100 points as well.

So you have to be very careful about how far in front of the enemy you place your pistoliers - to get an understanding of this here's the chance of getting run down by a M4 enemy depending on how far away your pistoliers are;
1" 72%
2" 61%
3" 50%
4" 38%
5" 28%
6" 19%

The sweet spot really is 5". You're close enough to fire at short range, the enemy can't wheel to move around you, and you've got a really good chance to get away.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

There's still penalty for move and shoot, so I don't know what you're talking about there. The penalty for long range only matters when you struggle to get a vanguarded, M8 fast cavalry unit with in 6" of the enemy... which is something no-one should ever struggle with.

There is not move and shoot penalty for pistols or other quick to fire weapons, that might be the rule he had been talking about.

Secondly, it's not difficult to get there. The question is whether one wants to be there.

I would say dont bother and get some flaggies...they are a much better investment...

Now that's a unit that really is way overpriced for what it delivers.

At 10 points, Ld 10 and reliable innate buffs? Nope, that's an excellent unit.

Be very careful there - the enemy has their Movement stat plus 2D6 to charge, and while you get the highest 2 of 3D6 for your flee, you do not add your movement to that. As a result, if you put yourself just 1" from the enemy, you will be a swiftstride roll plus 1 inch from them, and they will be rolling 2D6 plus their move to catch you.

That's probably why he suggested not to put them just 1" away...? Now I don't know what you are talking about.

[Jezbot]

There is not move and shoot penalty for pistols or other quick to fire weapons, that might be the rule he had been talking about.

Possibly, but if you're aware of the quick to fire rule there is no reason to talk about that rule at all.

Secondly, it's not difficult to get there. The question is whether one wants to be there.

If you don't want to be there, don't take pistoliers.

At 10 points, Ld 10 and reliable innate buffs? Nope, that's an excellent unit.

10 points? And why are you talking about Ld 10 for an unbreakable unit? The buffs are nice, but given the price you're paying for a T3 unarmoured troop it's not nearly enough.

That's probably why he suggested not to put them just 1" away...? Now I don't know what you are talking about.

Ah, misread, my mistake. Apologies.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Possibly, but if you're aware of the quick to fire rule there is no reason to talk about that rule at all.

Your statement that they suffer from this penalty is wrong. That's it.

If you don't want to be there, don't take pistoliers.

There is no need to repeat what I have just said. You DO realize that this is exactly what I wrote?

10 points? And why are you talking about Ld 10 for an unbreakable unit? The buffs are nice, but given the price you're paying for a T3 unarmoured troop it's not nearly enough.

Yes, 10 points, Ld 10, no auto-martyr, always frenzy, very reliable martyr effects. You DO realize that Okuto wrote his post about a year and a book ago, as I have pointed out before? Under those premises, Flagellants were quite decent and hardly overpriced.

Ld is very important for a frenzied unit.

[Jezbot]

Your statement that they suffer from this penalty is wrong. That's it.

Hang on, oh I see what's happened here. After he said there was a penalty, I corrected him but left out a 'no', so my comment should have read 'There's still no penalty for move and shoot'.

My mistake on the typo, but you should have been able to understand it from the context.

There is no need to repeat what I have just said. You DO realize that this is exactly what I wrote?

But it wasn't what you said.

Yes, 10 points, Ld 10, no auto-martyr, always frenzy, very reliable martyr effects. You DO realize that Okuto wrote his post about a year and a book ago, as I have pointed out before? Under those premises, Flagellants were quite decent and hardly overpriced.

Oh yes, very clever.

[DeathlessDraich]

Hi guys.

I have a 2000pts empire army and Ive been looking at investing to make it 2400pts. Ive looked at pistoliers and I dont know how to use them, some people swear by them and think they are the best thing since sliced bread.

As far as I can see after you have moved and multiple shots you are hitting on 6s and hitting on 6s with stand and shoot as well so I dont really know where their strengths lie, at 18pts a pop as well they arent cheap. I could just add a mass of flagellants instead.

Any advice would be appreciated

Here's 1 tactic which Pistoliers can employ which might surprise you -

They can trap and completely nullify a Bloodthirster provided you use a few units and know what to do! and of course provide the Daemon player is unaware of the manoeuvre

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Or they could just kill him in close combat, assuming the DoC player is unaware that he can make attacks as well.