Woo! Phalanx and cover!

[Vivia]

Omg, I read your spoiler and I shouldn't have done it! It's a shocking revelation and kind of nice too.

[shadowhawk2008]

One of the funniest moments in the novel so far have been when the Crimson Fist Captain, Reinez, calls the Angels Sanguine Captain, Gethsemor, a popinjay. That was a good laugh

[Vivia]

(Had to look that in the dictionary.)

It sounds accurate as far as I'm concerned. Bring it on Crimson Fist!

[shadowhawk2008]

*Leaves expletives regarding said Crimson Fist unsaid.*

[Vivia]

Those levelheaded Crimson Fists, they should go and do "other" things.

[Goosey_J]

The SD didn't seek to expand their numbers beyond the established 1000. They didn't plunge an entire sector (re: Maelstrom Zone) into war with another sector. They didn't start pirate raids on Imperial shipping (as the AC are supposed to have done). They didn't drag 3 other chapters with them into "heresy" and revolt. They didn't secretly absorb the remnants of a successor chapter into their numbers (granted they don't have successors apparently). They didn't cause a big who-ha with the High Lords. They didn't declare fiefdom over an entire sector. They didn't take the PDF/Guard forces of an entire sector and put them under their direct control. They didn't take the gene-seed of another chapter and use it for their own gains. They didn't defame the Imperial symbols on their wargear as far as I remember.

The SD were also driven by Sarpedon's own philosophy of following in the ideals of the Emperor, not the bureaucrats on Terra. Hence why they sort of accepted their mutation until they found they were being manipulated by a daemon, after which they sought to cure their mutations, the point of the second book.

Still, they did (however unwittingly) dance to the machinations of a Chaos daemon, suffer widespread mutation and murder their chapter master, which is pretty much an 'instant death' sort of scenario in the eyes of the current Imperium. There's not really a lot of wriggle room in their whole 'purge the alien, the mutant, the heretic' way of thinking.

Realistically, it's not a stretch to imagine a chapter as pious and righteous as the Imperial Fists taking one look at old Spidery McEightlegs and burning him to crispy cinders right then and there. In fact, that's a much more plausible outcome then the whole 'WE MUST GIVE THEM A TRIAL' scenario that Ben I-can't-write-a-decent-book-to-save-my-life Counter seems to have cooked up for them.

[bound for glory]

thats your opinion, buddy. there are many who like the series. you don't, thats fine. you mock the book, even tho you most likely hav'nt read it. fine again. but who are you to attack ben counters books? what have YOU had published? yeah. thats what i thought...

[Sephiroth]

One of the funniest moments in the novel so far have been when the Crimson Fist Captain, Reinez, calls the Angels Sanguine Captain, Gethsemor, a popinjay. That was a good laugh

*Monocle pop'd*

Well, I do say, such foul language!

[shadowhawk2008]

Still, they did (however unwittingly) dance to the machinations of a Chaos daemon, suffer widespread mutation and murder their chapter master, which is pretty much an 'instant death' sort of scenario in the eyes of the current Imperium. There's not really a lot of wriggle room in their whole 'purge the alien, the mutant, the heretic' way of thinking.

Realistically, it's not a stretch to imagine a chapter as pious and righteous as the Imperial Fists taking one look at old Spidery McEightlegs and burning him to crispy cinders right then and there. In fact, that's a much more plausible outcome then the whole 'WE MUST GIVE THEM A TRIAL' scenario that Ben I-can't-write-a-decent-book-to-save-my-life Counter seems to have cooked up for them.

You know, that happens so much in the background. Doesn't mean it is conclusive to any degree. Just because a chapter was unknowingly manipulated by a Greater Daemon doesn't mean they get served a death sentence.

Eisenhorn did that for quite a while.

As for murdering the Gorgoleon, it would be murder if he had been killed in cold blood. But he wasn't. He was killed in an honour duel. The end.

They also didn't suffer mutations until after the internal chapter war, by which point they had already been declared Excommunicate.

As for the trial/killing them all outright. There is an important consideration here. And that is, what makes a chapter that was once as revered and respected as the Soul Drinkers fall to Chaos. I am sure that the same question was asked of the Astral Claws at the end of the Badab War, but by then they had done so much worse than the Soul Drinkers that the judgement of "kill-on-sight" was inevitable. There was no wiggle room there.

But there is wiggle room here. Purely because even though Inquisitor Kolgo and the Sister Superior from the second novel are present at the trial, the trial is being held aboard the Phalanx by the Imperial Fists. Because of their status as a First Founding chapter, and because they have such close ties with so many worlds and organizations and individuals in the Imperium, they get away with quite a bit.

But what I said above is what still holds here. That is the entire point of Vladimir Pugh's decision to hold said trial.

[Goosey_J]

thats your opinion, buddy. there are many who like the series. you don't, thats fine. you mock the book, even tho you most likely hav'nt read it. fine again. but who are you to attack ben counters books? what have YOU had published? yeah. thats what i thought...

That line of argument doesn't stand up mate. Having an opinion on creative works does not require one to have invested any time in creating anything at all, it merely requires one to be informed as to the subject they're discussing. By your line of reasoning all opera critics must have performed in an opera, all film critics must have directed a film etc. It doesn't quite work like that.

But since you've had a personal dig at me I'll tell you who I am to criticise a work of badly written science fiction. For a start I'm someone who's read the first 4 books of this abysmal series. I'm also someone who owns and whose read a great deal of Black Library books. In fact you could broaden that statement to someone that's been reading science fiction and fantasy books for the last 15 years by authors of varying competence (most of which who can write better then Ben Counter). Finally, and least importantly, I'm someone who has a first class honours degree in Creative Writing, with a cousin who's a thrice published author and several friends who all work within the UK publishing industry. None of which is particularly relevant to me having an opinion on a series of books I consider to be poorly written, but since you wanted to know who I was to dare have such an opinion, I thought I'd let you know.

You know, that happens so much in the background. Doesn't mean it is conclusive to any degree. Just because a chapter was unknowingly manipulated by a Greater Daemon doesn't mean they get served a death sentence.

Eisenhorn did that for quite a while.

As for murdering the Gorgoleon, it would be murder if he had been killed in cold blood. But he wasn't. He was killed in an honour duel. The end.

They also didn't suffer mutations until after the internal chapter war, by which point they had already been declared Excommunicate.

As for the trial/killing them all outright. There is an important consideration here. And that is, what makes a chapter that was once as revered and respected as the Soul Drinkers fall to Chaos. I am sure that the same question was asked of the Astral Claws at the end of the Badab War, but by then they had done so much worse than the Soul Drinkers that the judgement of "kill-on-sight" was inevitable. There was no wiggle room there.

But there is wiggle room here. Purely because even though Inquisitor Kolgo and the Sister Superior from the second novel are present at the trial, the trial is being held aboard the Phalanx by the Imperial Fists. Because of their status as a First Founding chapter, and because they have such close ties with so many worlds and organizations and individuals in the Imperium, they get away with quite a bit.

But what I said above is what still holds here. That is the entire point of Vladimir Pugh's decision to hold said trial.

Eloquently argued and all fair points. My main gripe here is the mutation aspect. As I've already stated, the Imperial Fists are a particularly pious and righteous chapter (the Black Templars came out of them, for one), and I really have a hard time imagining them doing anything but executing mutants on the spot. Maybe if we we're talking about the Ultramarines or the Salamanders or any other chapter with a degree of tolerance (let alone benevolence), it wouldn't be so bad, but we're not. We're talking about masochistic zealots that believe they failed the Emperor and seek to cleanse just about anything (themselves included) in order to redeem themselves.

If Benny boy decides to go the route of 'we're giving you a trial to hear your story but then we're going to kill you anyway', that'd be more acceptable then 'should we let the renegade spider mutant live' path. But still, it is a hefty stretch of the imagination to even perceive that level of tolerance within the Imperial Fists chapter.

[Wintertooth]

It's not a trial in the sense of ascertaining guilt or innocence. It's a trial to make sure they've been found guilty of their every sin against the Imperium, because they can only execute them once.

Pugh wants the stain of a Successor's heresy cleansed from the Imperial Fists, by every crime being seen to be condemned and punished. Not because there's any doubt the guy with spider legs is a Warp-corrupted heretic who's going to be incinerated after the verdict is delivered.

But since you've had a personal dig at me I'll tell you who I am to criticise a work of badly written science fiction. For a start I'm someone who's read the first 4 books of this abysmal series. I'm also someone who owns and whose read a great deal of Black Library books. In fact you could broaden that statement to someone that's been reading science fiction and fantasy books for the last 15 years by authors of varying competence (most of which who can write better then Ben Counter). Finally, and least importantly, I'm someone who has a first class honours degree in Creative Writing, with a cousin who's a thrice published author and several friends who all work within the UK publishing industry. None of which is particularly relevant to me having an opinion on a series of books I consider to be poorly written, but since you wanted to know who I was to dare have such an opinion, I thought I'd let you know.

But you haven't read this book? Back in your box then.

[Goosey_J]

But you haven't read this book? Back in your box then.

... Because it's not out?

Phalanx - Ben Counter - April 2012

Herp.

[shadowhawk2008]

Have you read Trial of the Mantis Warriors in the Legends anthology? It essentially tackles the same problem, the only difference being that the trial wasn't as hostile, the chapter master's underwent psychic interrogation, and while they had links to the chaos-serving Astral Claws, they were themselves pure.

It all comes down to that point I emphasized previously. Inquisitors don't give a damn about the reasons. Space Marines do.

I would imagine that for Dorn's sons, it is not enough to merely purge their misguided, disloyal, traitorous (or what have you) brethren. They need and want to know what it is that set them on that destructive path.

And the IF are pious and righteous sure, but they are not fanatical zealots like the Black Templars. You could say that they are more "considered" zealots.

As for that point about Benny Boy, I don't want to spoil chapters 11/12 but I would really recommend that people read them. Sarpedon is the scapegoat for the entire chapter since his brothers are on trial by extension and the trial is a very hostile environment for the Soul Drinkers with next to no supporters.

[shadowhawk2008]

... Because it's not out?

Phalanx - Ben Counter - April 2012

Herp.

Its been available in H&B since the e-mag rolled out and the ebook will be available in a couple months. Preorders are out now.

[Wintertooth]

... Because it's not out?

The final instalment was in last week's H&B. The explanation of the trial was in last year's H&B.

Even if it wasn't, that doesn't excuse expressing opinions and passing judgment on something you know naff all about.

Herp.

Suits you.

[Goosey_J]

The final instalment was in last week's H&B. The explanation of the trial was in last year's H&B.

Even if it wasn't, that doesn't excuse expressing opinions and passing judgment on something you know naff all about.


Suits you.

I don't read hammer and bolter, I wasn't aware that any explanation of the trial had been published at all. I was under the impression that this was a speculative thread, so apologies for that.

Despite that, you're mistaken anyway. I know plenty enough about Ben Counter's literay contributions (having read at least 7 of his books) to express an opinion on and pass judgement on his work, past, present or future. I would ask you politely as well to stop your condescending remarks at me, they serve no purpose in this discussion.

[Wyrmwood]

To be fair, he's going on his knowledge of the plot and past experience with the other books. His assumption that Ben Counter's writing isn't up to par is pretty judgemental; that said, I haven't really noticed an improvement in Ben's writing since Grey Knights.