New company Fireforge Games

[Griefbringer]

But the second part about female knights? I hope not, it are historical mini's. Please keep everything so historical as posible!

The lovely part about multi-part historicals is that they are multi-part, so the designer can include some options that might not be of interest to everybody - like the crested helmets on this first displayed kit.

Thus, in theory one could crank out a kit of perfectly historical 15th century dismounted knights (in case there is sufficient demand), and then add in a few less historical options (like bare female heads) and leave it up to the customer to decide how historically they want to assemble their set.

That said, if Fireforge is initially going to concentrate on 13th century, that will probably keep them occupied for the next two years or so.

[Von Fabian]

I'd potentially be interested in their future kits, but I'd need more information.

First, there don't appear to be any faces or hands in this first kit. I don't like how the mail mitten style of gauntlet makes the arm, hand and fingers blend together, and I prefer unhelmeted heads. What we've seen so far doesn't show whether they can sculpt these details well or not.

Second is the question of whether the kits I'd personally like to see are even an option. If they're willing to make 15th-16th century female knights on foot in plastic, I'm interested. If that's too ahistorical for their liking, I'm not.

Mail mittens were done in this way during 13th century and were totally attached to the chainmail of the arms. Individual fingers on mail mittens still attached to the arms started to appear at the very end of this century and became more common during 14th century.

When you talk about faces, i presume you are talking about not Full helm helmets. Well, in this kit we decided to put only full helm types since they are more characteristic of the 13th century in Europe and Teutonic Knights.

Full helm started appearing during the end of the 12th century and they were at their max usage in the 13th century.

In the 11th and 12th century we have Norman types of helm and an halfway type (in several versions) with the faceguard opening up and the backside opend too. You can see it in the movie "Kingdom of Heaven" weared by Orlando Bloom and many others.

We couldn't put everything in a single box, frame space is limited by many technical problems when producing plastics and you need to do some choices.
Anyway, don't worry about the other types of helms as well as having "faces" or even some heads without helm and only with mail coif......have i said that with next kits you'll be able to assemble every type of western/crusader knight in this period?

Faces we have already sculpetd are very nice but i cannot show you them now, it's really too early (but i would like to). Anyway, our sculptor is Bob Naismith and he is very skilled.

Regards,
Fabio

[herbtarkel]

stuff... Anyway, our sculptor is Bob Naismith and ...

well that's enough said right there - where do I order?

[Lars Porsenna]

I think open faced helmets would have been used in the 13th century, since not all knights will want a full helmet, and not all mounted men will be knights (read Joinville's reccollectons of the Seventh Crusade, and the numerous mention of Mtd Sergeants). I think it would be nice to give modelers the option of making a few mounted sergeants from the kit, especially if one is doing an actual Order army.

Now if you are doing infantry kits in the future, making sure the heads are cross-compatable would definitely win you a fan here.

And yes, mail mittens were how it was done during this period, so any deviation from that would make the minis a-historical. Those that have been following my posts in this forum will probably know what side I'll fall on for this.

Off the top of my head I can think of only 2 historical personalities that were women and wore armor (Sichelgaita and Joan of course), and visual differences between a woman and a man in full armor will be minimal, especially if the knight is wearing a coat-of-plates or a cuir boilii breastplate, minimizing the appearance of breasts and hips. Better to pick up an after-market female head and simply using that, if you want female knights.

Damon.

[Von Fabian]

I think open faced helmets would have been used in the 13th century, since not all knights will want a full helmet, and not all mounted men will be knights (read Joinville's reccollectons of the Seventh Crusade, and the numerous mention of Mtd Sergeants). I think it would be nice to give modelers the option of making a few mounted sergeants from the kit, especially if one is doing an actual Order army.

Ops...did you say Mounted Sergeants?.....

Now if you are doing infantry kits in the future, making sure the heads are cross-compatable would definitely win you a fan here.

You'll be happy....

Fabio

I forgot to mention....

About Knights not wearing full helmets during the 13th century...

You are right Lars Porsenna, there were still knights wearing even old style norman helmets during the 13th century, in particular in the Middle East.

As i said, wait our next releases, there are going to be other cavalry boxes too.

Fabio

[Lars Porsenna]

Okie dokie

Damon.

[AlexHolker]

@Fabio
I'd appreciate a yes or no answer to whether Fireforge Games would ever consider a dedicated plastic kit for female knights.

[eldargal]

The helmets are straight out of the Maciejowski Bible c1250. There are many examples in museums and private collections. The decoration may be rendered slightly innaccurately on the models but I'm not certain as there was considerable variety in such things. There would certainly have been open faced helmets as well.

It is possible that Eleanor of Aquitaine and her maids/attendants were armed and trained as knights though this is disputed.

I have both mail and gambeson, cuir boulli and coat of plates and I still look like a woman wearing them. All armour was belted at the waist to reduce the strain on the shoulders by transferring some of the eight to the hips.

I think open faced helmets would have been used in the 13th century, since not all knights will want a full helmet, and not all mounted men will be knights (read Joinville's reccollectons of the Seventh Crusade, and the numerous mention of Mtd Sergeants). I think it would be nice to give modelers the option of making a few mounted sergeants from the kit, especially if one is doing an actual Order army.

Now if you are doing infantry kits in the future, making sure the heads are cross-compatable would definitely win you a fan here.

And yes, mail mittens were how it was done during this period, so any deviation from that would make the minis a-historical. Those that have been following my posts in this forum will probably know what side I'll fall on for this.

Off the top of my head I can think of only 2 historical personalities that were women and wore armor (Sichelgaita and Joan of course), and visual differences between a woman and a man in full armor will be minimal, especially if the knight is wearing a coat-of-plates or a cuir boilii breastplate, minimizing the appearance of breasts and hips. Better to pick up an after-market female head and simply using that, if you want female knights.

Damon.

To Fireforge Games, if you wish to make historically accurate 13th century models I strongly recommend you reference the Maciejowski Bible, you can find many pictures online or buy a facsimile of the majority of the Bible in a book called Old Testament Miniatures: A Medieval Picture Book With 283 Paintings from the Creation to the Story of David by Cockerell and Plummer.

[Von Fabian]

@Fabio
I'd appreciate a yes or no answer to whether Fireforge Games would ever consider a dedicated plastic kit for female knights.

Sorry Alex, i forgot to answer your question on the female knights.

No, we have not planned a dedicated female knight plastic kit.

Fabio

It is possible that Eleanor of Aquitaine and her maids/attendants were armed and trained as knights though this is disputed.

I don't think Eleanor of Aquitaine was trained as a knight from what i have read but surely she was charismatic and she had a major role on several political/military affairs of her time! so who knows.....

Fabio

[eldargal]

Well as I said, it is disputed whether it occurred or the extent to which it occurred. There are also Muslim accounts of Christian women donning armour and fighting but I've only heard about it through a seminar and am unfamiliar with the sources.

[Tonny]

I forgot to mention....

About Knights not wearing full helmets during the 13th century...

You are right Lars Porsenna, there were still knights wearing even old style norman helmets during the 13th century, in particular in the Middle East.

As i said, wait our next releases, there are going to be other cavalry boxes too.

Fabio

How long haven't I waited for plastic crusades miniatures, it seems the wait is over

Thank you!

[Griefbringer]

visual differences between a woman and a man in full armor will be minimal

Actually, some of the later 15th century plate armour tend to have a rather feminine hips-to-waist ratio, eg. this:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...armourc14.jpg/


As for the Fireforge Games, if I have understood correctly what was written by signor Fabio, the releases after the knights will include mounted sergeants (on unbarded horses I presume?) and infantry (spearmen and crossbowmen, I presume?).

[eldargal]

The whole 'women look the same as men in armour' argument is ridiculous but prevalent. Yes, they do if that armour was made for a man. But as women are a different shape, if you make the armour to fit us then we will not look the same as men. However this is a discussion for another thread.

[Lars Porsenna]

Not a ridiculous comment IF read within the context of this thread. Yes, if the armor was custom built for women, there would be obvious differences. But if a woman was wearing armor that was not custom built for a woman, the differences would not be as obvious.

Speaking of which, ARE there plans for figures wearing coat-of-plates?

Damon.

[Von Fabian]

As for the Fireforge Games, if I have understood correctly what was written by signor Fabio, the releases after the knights will include mounted sergeants (on unbarded horses I presume?) and infantry (spearmen and crossbowmen, I presume?).

most probably i'm saying too much........

Speaking of which, ARE there plans for figures wearing coat-of-plates? Damon.

As i said earlier we'll initially concentrate on this period while full plates were mostly used in the late 14th century.

Anyway, since little pieces of plate started appearing in the late 13th century as an added protection to shoulders, arms or knees......we have added on the sprue frames some separated little rectangular pieces of plates with lace details, that you can attach on shoulders (much like little shoulder pads). You can see them in our Teutonic Knight artwork....no one noticed that yet

Being separeted on the frame, you;ll have the option of attaching them or not.

Fabio

[Griefbringer]

Coat-of-plates started appearing in western Europe around mid-13th century, if my books are to be trusted.

[Von Fabian]

Exactly! but they were not full plates. They were plate pieces added to mail hauberk armour.

Fabio

[kublai]

he Fabio I hope you had some sort of professional seminar or breifing how to deal with forum people (especially historical FP)

[PsychosisPC]

Who cares about women?? I just want really cool knights in plastic... lol

[Crazy Harborc]

Alexander Nevsky "Russian" knights against Teutonic knights is just FINE with me. I do hope that movie will be remade. I still have the Minifigs 25mm heavy foot with thrusting spears and shields