Chaos Legions, Primarchs, Phoenix Lords, Elector Counts, Patriarchs of Magic & more!

[MvS]

I've been receiving emails asking for me to compile my various rules and lists into a single accessible thread. So here it is, containing all the most up-to-date versions of my files.

First the Warhammer Fantasy lists, now including comprehensive background and rules for all the 'warrior' Electors of the Empire, all the Patriarchs of the Colleges of Magistry and Magnus the Pious.

Also comprehensive rules for Swordmaster Warbands in games of Mordheim, written by me waaaay back in 1998/99

Added some rules for Prince Imrik and the Blademaster of Hoeth - the Grandmaster of the Order of Swordmasters.

Last updated 31/05/2012

[MvS]

On to the Apocalypse Extravaganza and the Primarchs...

Last updated 22/05/2012

[MvS]

Space Marine Chapters and Traitor Legions...

Last updated 31/05/2012Attachment 139325Attachment 139326Attachment 139327

[MvS]

Reserved for future file posts MK# III

[MvS]

Added some more files.

[Chem-Dog]

All I can say about the stuff I've read so far is....brilliant.
I've kept my focus on the Emperor's Children list, simply as this is my own personal area of interest within the 40K Chaos umbrella group and there's some smashing stuff in there, Lucius is now the absolute bane of any mook squad out there you care to name, like he should be. I also really like the idea of using the Combat squad rules in combination with the Sacred Numbers.

A couple of small fluff niggles with Eidolon. I actually feel a bit guilty even bringing them up, given the scope of what you've done here. But the Children strive for perfection in all.

1. Eidolon's pretty much exclusively described as carrying a Hammer, yet in his listing he's armed with a Powerfist. For me, at least, it's iconic of the man.

2. Eidolon as the first of the Noise Marines. Doesn't sit quite right with me (though I happily admit to not being an expert) from what we're told in the HH books. In Fulgrim it's Marius who first takes up the sonic weapons and, a little later in the book Lucius and Eidolon are side by side kicking butt in a distinctly non Noise Marine style (ie, cohesive combatants, not sensation-junkies).
Eidolon's weird shouty power is a result of crossing the Legion's Geneseed with fragments of the Laer material creating an altered implant (Betcher's Gland, I think) and isn't the result of Sonic weaponry meaning, at least to me, he's not a Noise Marine.


But other than those very personal and very minor points, this is a truly masterful set of rules. You're making it very hard for me to resist starting an EC army.

[MvS]

Good points!

I wanted there to be a 'first' Noise Marine and as I remembered Fulgrim Eidolon was the man for the job, you may well be right though. My logic was that the first Marines who started using noise weapons weren't quite noise marines - the cults hadn't formed properly at that point, however Eidolon was the first to physically be changed into a super noisy so-and-so, and senior noise marines are almost always depicted as having loud speakers instead of mouths and suchlike.

I made the leap logic that at some point before the Siege of Terra were the Chaos Cults amongst the Traitor Legions were fully developed Eidolon also took up noise weapons while also becoming the template for the noisy biological re-wiring of that cult's initiates. Perhaps, because Eidolon was an important commander in the Legion, he even came to be the first cultic leader of the noise marines. At least that was my thought process.

What do you think?

As for the hammer, I'll look into it. For some (admittedly shallow) reason I never liked the image of Emperor's Children with hammers (including old Fulgrim) because they didn't look nimble, stylish or 'sexy' enough. Perhaps I could give him some sort of mace/hammer. Hm.

Thoughts and suggestions are always very welcome!

EDIT

On a side note, although I would encourage anyone to use these rules, chop them around and enjoy them as they please, I imagine Traitor Legion rules will come out at some point, so keep your model collections flexible to the inevitable changes!

[Endobai]

Hi MvS!

Great the files are here again.


I made extensive use of them when you've sent it via e-mail and there will be at least one battle report I'll post on Warseer - between the Death Guard Legion and the Grey Knights from a battle played c. two weeks ago.

My regards

[MvS]

Oh that's excellent! I'd love to see how they fair in a battle report, especially against the cursed Grey Knights...

I can't remember whether I sent you the most up-to-date version of the files. If not, I think the only major difference is the Daemon Weapon rules, summarised here:

Daemon Weapons inflict an automatic Perils of the Warp attack against their bearers if no Wounds are inflicted by any successful Hits the weapons make in that round of Close-Combat. Note that this happens regardless of whether the bearer is a Psyker or not, but does not happen for attacks against models with no Wounds.


On an unrelated point, for those interested in Warhammer Fantasy I'm thinking of increasing the points value of the High Elf hero, Bel-Makor to about 370pts. I'm interested in anyone's thoughts on that.

[Chem-Dog]

Good points!

I wanted there to be a 'first' Noise Marine and as I remembered Fulgrim Eidolon was the man for the job, you may well be right though. My logic was that the first Marines who started using noise weapons weren't quite noise marines - the cults hadn't formed properly at that point, however Eidolon was the first to physically be changed into a super noisy so-and-so, and senior noise marines are almost always depicted as having loud speakers instead of mouths and suchlike.

I made the leap logic that at some point before the Siege of Terra were the Chaos Cults amongst the Traitor Legions were fully developed Eidolon also took up noise weapons while also becoming the template for the noisy biological re-wiring of that cult's initiates. Perhaps, because Eidolon was an important commander in the Legion, he even came to be the first cultic leader of the noise marines. At least that was my thought process.

What do you think?

As for the hammer, I'll look into it. For some (admittedly shallow) reason I never liked the image of Emperor's Children with hammers (including old Fulgrim) because they didn't look nimble, stylish or 'sexy' enough. Perhaps I could give him some sort of mace/hammer. Hm.

Thoughts and suggestions are always very welcome!

IIRC by the time the dropsite Massacre takes place the Noise Marines are a distinct enough element in and of themselves. Marius, I think, Already has his mouth wired open. At least from the way it's written in Fulgrim Eidolon's implant is only related to Noise Marine weaponry by virtue that they both utilise Sound, and both owe something of their existance to the Laer.
But there's nothing said about Eidolon post Heresy (in contrast to Lucius) so it could easily be a route he fell into at some point after we last see him circa M31. Personally I think his arrogance and pride would take him somewhere different (roughly anagolus with your "Paragon", awesome name BTW), but Chaos has an almost habitual tendancy to throwing it's followers a curveball.

The hammer.
I know what you mean, isn't entirely the most graceful or subtle of weapons and combat with it generally involves swinging it at the enemy's head and hoping it'll connect.
Perhaps this is one of those many instances in the 40K universe that the exception proves the rule. In a Legion dedicated to perfection in all things, the bludgeoning force of a hammer offers perfection in simplicity.
That or managing to make it to the rank of Lord Commander while using a hammer mean you're pretty peerless as a warrior, no tricks or feints, just an accurate application of force in every blow.
A Thunderhammer (or perhaps the Hammer Fulgrim forged) wouldn't alter how the character works at all on the table (aside from a slight improvement Vs MC's and Vehicles). But if you wanna keep him as Noise Marine Primus, he could easily have discarded the thing in favour for strumming his instrument.

Actually that last paragraph has generated a couple of new thoughts.
1: At the end of Fulgrim the Daemon Primarch gifts the "Laer Blade" to Lucius. No additional rules necessary, just a cool bit of fluff tie in naming.
2: The first rules of the Noise Marines Way back in the 90's had special rules for leaders who were skilled enough with their weapon that they could alter the effect of them, while this has been partially covered in the alternate weapon stats available to SB's and BM's, perhaps sufficiently skilled Noise Marines could have additional alternate weapon stats for their Noise Weapons.




I've got a printed copy of the EC's rules in my loo which is not as bad as it sounds, I do much of my army-list reading and pondering there. It's currently top of my pile O' reading.

[MvS]

IIRC by the time the dropsite Massacre takes place the Noise Marines are a distinct enough element in and of themselves. Marius, I think, Already has his mouth wired open.

Out of interest, who would you have as the 'first' Noise Marine, or at least the first leader of the Noise Marines as a unit/cult within the Emperor's Children?

At least from the way it's written in Fulgrim Eidolon's implant is only related to Noise Marine weaponry by virtue that they both utilise Sound, and both owe something of their existance to the Laer.

So you don't think he was being painted as being, or becoming, a Noise Marine? Or do you just think that he shouldn't be named as being the 'first' in my list perhaps?

Personally I think his arrogance and pride would take him somewhere different

In game terms I kind of wanted him to stand out in the list, rather than being a variation of the close-combat monster (like Lucius).

(roughly anagolus with your "Paragon", awesome name BTW)

Thanks!

Chaos has an almost habitual tendancy to throwing it's followers a curveball.

Well indeed.

The hammer...

I admit that the idea is growing on me, although i should say that the lists are supposed to show the Chaos legions as they are now, not as they were around the time of the Heresy or just before. So weapons mentioned from pre / during Heresy don't necessarily have to stand. I'll think on it.

1: At the end of Fulgrim the Daemon Primarch gifts the "Laer Blade" to Lucius. No additional rules necessary, just a cool bit of fluff tie in naming.

That's important actually because my Daemon-Fulgrim still wields it. That'll have to be changed. I'll give it to Lucius.

The first rules of the Noise Marines Way back in the 90's had special rules for leaders who were skilled enough with their weapon that they could alter the effect of them, while this has been partially covered in the alternate weapon stats available to SB's and BM's, perhaps sufficiently skilled Noise Marines could have additional alternate weapon stats for their Noise Weapons.

That's an interesting idea, although it would mean I would have to alter some of the dynamics of the troop entries. As the list stands i stuck with the rules and stats from the Codex, but built more on the idea that the different weapon types should be used like the special and heavy weapon choices of 'normal' marine units.

I could perhaps make it so that Noise marine HQ choices could vary frequency and power of their weapns, or perhaps the Children's Havoc / Obliterator equivalents.

Good idea!

I've got a printed copy of the EC's rules in my loo which is not as bad as it sounds, I do much of my army-list reading and pondering there. It's currently top of my pile O' reading.

Reading that made my day.

[Jim]

Just a quick note to say thank you for posting these.

The Empire characters are excellant and I really think you've done a great job on the Primarchs too.

Jim

[MvS]

Thanks!

Although I very much enjoyed writing these lists I didn't just write them for my own pleasure. I hoped that others would find them useful and so I'm always delighted when people get something out of them.

[Son of Sanguinius]

MvS: would you consider writing something for the demi-gods and the more active gods of Warhammer Fantasy? I mean figures such as Aenarion, Nagash, Grimnir, Caledor, Be'lakor, Lord Kroak, Mazdamundias, Sigmar, etc.

[MvS]

Yes I would. I have a few of these simmering away already (Sigmar and Nagash most notably).

I'm a bit busy on some other projects just now, but I'll definitely finish and post them eventually. Thanks for the interest.

[MvS]

Updated to fix a few errors, include Contemptor Dreadnoughts and the Psyker 'Mastery' rules from Codex: Grey Knights.

[Chem-Dog]

First I apologise, the dark lords alone know how I didn't notice your reply straight away. *grovel grovel grovel* Please forgive me!

Out of interest, who would you have as the 'first' Noise Marine, or at least the first leader of the Noise Marines as a unit/cult within the Emperor's Children?

So you don't think he was being painted as being, or becoming, a Noise Marine? Or do you just think that he shouldn't be named as being the 'first' in my list perhaps?

The one advantage to coming back to the subject after *ahem* a little break is that I've read through it all again and I've realised that first can mean pre-eminent in addition to simply being the-one-who-came-before-all-others.
With this in mind I'll say that if Eidolon were a Noise Marine, it would make a whole lot of sense that he'd be top of the heap.
What got my pedant gland throbbing is the gut feeling that the Eidolon portrayed in Fulgrim seems to be too driven and ambitious to become a mere sensation junkie. He pouts when give what he perceives to be a less than glorious mission, fails to know his station when participating in a conclave of Primarchs and generally acts like an ass in the pursuance of making Eidolon look as good as possible. I think he'd look down on the Noise Marines as weak.

But it's a personal take on the 40K universe as observed by me, I'm not saying having Eidolon as Noise Marine numero uno is wrong according to the established material, it's just a feeling on how I read the character.

I admit that the idea is growing on me, although i should say that the lists are supposed to show the Chaos legions as they are now, not as they were around the time of the Heresy or just before. So weapons mentioned from pre / during Heresy don't necessarily have to stand. I'll think on it.

This is fair enough, when looking at GW's stock CSM characters none of them appear to be armed with the weapons they carry pre/during the Heresy, at least I don't think they do (Abbadon certainly doesn't).

That's an interesting idea, although it would mean I would have to alter some of the dynamics of the troop entries. As the list stands i stuck with the rules and stats from the Codex, but built more on the idea that the different weapon types should be used like the special and heavy weapon choices of 'normal' marine units.

I could perhaps make it so that Noise marine HQ choices could vary frequency and power of their weapns, or perhaps the Children's Havoc / Obliterator equivalents.

Good idea!

Thank you.

But....

I've snipped the following from a post I made (with a few typos corrected) in a discussion on the failings of Noise Marines and potential fixes...

"A few interesting points from the Noise Marine's first appearance:

They had a rule called "Psychic Cacophony" which gave them a 24" bubble of psychic noise which disrupted psykers. 1-3 you are fine, 4 you're alive but unable to use the power, 5-6 you're head is toast and your brain is the scrambled egg. It didn't affect Daemons (who were psykers back then) and Great Unclean ones are specifically mentioned as being inclined to hum along in a cheerful manner.

Sonic Blasters were the only sonic weapon, they had a 24" range and caused a -2 save mod (putting this in context to those who've come to 40K since negative save mod were scrapped, Bolters had a -1 save mod) Their strength was resolved at the strength of the firer (I assume to represent how hard he could strum?), this was 4 in the most cases but the "Master" had S6 and thus fired his weapon at S6.

The Master had several options to fire, as standard he had "following fire" which doesn't have a direct comparison now but did give way to sustained fire dice and then subsequently to weapons that have more than one shot (in essence it allowed you to keep shooting things untill you failed to hit). The Master could forgoe his following fire to use a "Power Blast" which was resolved at S6+D6 (max 10), caused D6 wounds and automatically penetrated armour.
If the Powerblast slew it's target (or destroyed the vehicle, if that was the target) the Master would have to test to see if he was affected by feedback. On a D6 roll of 6 he'd slump to the floor eyes bulging, ears bleeding and grinning like a loon and he'd stay that way until he could roll another 6 at the start of his turn. A squad member would have to carry him and be effectively useless untill the master recovered.

The Master was a 4 wound character and could be taken solo in any chaos army.

Noise Marines used to hail from a planet in the EoT that was ruled over by a Daemonprince (back then DP > GD) who's name was represented only by a scream of utter abandon."

So I can't really claim the idea as mine, it's kinda how they first worked, I just think it'd be cool if they harked back to those days in some way or another.

I know you're pretty much done with those rules, but on the off chance that you do feel like coming back to them, that thread had a couple of groovy ideas in it.


Again, sorry for not replying for so long (I blame the 2000+ thread subscriptions I'm rocking at the moment and that's post purge).
If it's any consolation, I've started an Emperor's Children army on the back of your list, it currently consists of a single Lord model that I am slowly (oh so slowly) converting.

[DietDolphin]

Hey I just found these rules and am currently looking through the Chaos Rimarchs and legions. They are great and very in depth.

Just a tiny thing about Fulgrim, Chem-Dog mentioned how he gave the Laer blade to Lucius, Well I see you have given him the Anathema and Fireblade, but Fireblade was destroyed but Ferrus Mannus when Fulgrim tried to turn him (When Ferrus did his whole "I created it, I can destroy it! AHHHH!). Like Chem-Dog I feel like a bit of a jerk bring up such a minor thing...

And on the Eidolon's Hammer discussion, I understand your dislike for the Hammer because it isn't graceful or nimble so doesn't suit the EC but I think it fits Eidolon's character perfectly (pun intended ). Eidolon is a Bold, Arrogant, prideful, cold bastard who is a non-sense to-the-point commander. His hammer shows his authority over others since it gives him such a commanding presence. Also you would have to be pretty arrogant to Charge headlong into battle with a hammer. From Fulgrim I got the impression he wasn't concerned with all this Slaanesh non-sence, but just following Fulgrim and always being the favourite and the best so the I think his Hammer really solidifies that blunt personality.

This is stuff on Eidolon from The Primarchs so be warned

Fulgrim kills him so that means he never gets the chance to discard his hammer. (Damn you Graham McNeil! I loved Fulgrim and A Thousand Sons and your ruining them for me with your later stories killing off Eidolon and changing the timeline, Bah!)

[omegoku]

Hi, just read thru the apocalypse rules and really enjoyed them.
One thing I am confused about are the few weapons that state
Ignores Invulnerable saves of 5+
This reads weird? Why not just give the -2 to Inv saves rule that Corax has to all these weapons? It makes more sense. RAW wise you could take a 6+ save against these weapons!!

Final Judgement, I think doesn't quite work.
It says it counts as a 42" range vortex grenade, but doesn't say when you can use it, just not in Shooting or assault.
Also the weakening for 1D6 turns seems unnecessary with all the other stipulations (once a game and give up entire turn to 'cast')

[MvS]

Ignores Invulnerable saves of 5+
This reads weird? Why not just give the -2 to Inv saves rule that Corax has to all these weapons? It makes more sense.

They serve different purposes. The ones that ignore specific groups of Invulnerable Saves are not as useful as those that always reduce the effectiveness of Invulnerable Saves. So Corax will reduce the effectiveness of Storm Shields for instance, but weapons that only ignore Invulnerable Saves of 5 or more would not.

RAW wise you could take a 6+ save against these weapons!!

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'RAW' here. I think your saying that the wording leaves it open for people to just ignore Invulnerable saves of 5 but not 5+ (5 and up), is that right?

If that's what you're saying, I'm not sure what to do actually. You're the first to point that out as a potential problem. I think it would take a pretty cheesey player to suggest '5+' just means '5' only. I think the standard form of referring to an Invulnerable Save (or armour saves for that matter) is it's lowest pass and then indicate upwards - so 3+, 4+, 5+ etc.

Or am I missing what you mean?

It says it counts as a 42" range vortex grenade, but doesn't say when you can use it, just not in Shooting or assault.

It says it can be used in the Shooting Phase or Close-Combat phase. It's just that the Emperor can't make any other assaults or shooting attacks in the same turn.

Also the weakening for 1D6 turns seems unnecessary with all the other stipulations (once a game and give up entire turn to 'cast')

It's really just a thematic choice. It's supposed to be the Emperor throwing everything into destroying a godlike enemy, like Horus. It isn't something that he can do 'free'. It costs him.