Priests of the Old World and Magic - are Priests Mages?

[ManOfRust]

This seems to have become both more and less clear as time and fluff has gone by, simply;

Do Priests of the Old World Pantheon have access to the magical powers of their gods? Are they effectively wizards?

Fluff-wise many priests are described as magic users (Bagrian - High Priest of Taal, Morgianna le Fey - Enchantress of the Lady) and the powers of the gods flow from the Winds of Magic, exactly the same as spells from a sorceror or shaman do so there is no difference in effect.

Is there a difference between prayers and spells?

Equally some priests (particularly Sigmarites) have no magical talent at all, faith is seen as seperate from magic and divine intervention is open to anyone with obsessive belief!

All priests can supposedly call on their god, the god in question does not have to listen. Are magic using priests the exception or does their seniority grant them the absolute attention of thier deity? AND access to the power that comes with it?

If actual magic users are the exception in the clergy, how welcome are they? Do they fulfill other roles? Could a High Priest also be a member of the colleges of magic?

Thoughts please...

[Eddie Chaos]

I think they are wizards who don't realise what they are doing, that's not to say prayers aren't answered. Its magic but not as controlled as the college approved wizard's magic.

probably

[Bubble Ghost]

For the most part, is the Empire specifically which has priests with these sorts of powers, to represent acts of faith and miracles - in direct contrast to the occult powers of 'proper' wizards. This imagery exists because of the real life influences that form the backbone of the Empire's background - it's influenced both by the clash between spreading Christianty and native pagan religions, and by the faith vs. science conflict of more recent times. But the word 'priest' does not by itself imply magic use, of a specific type or otherwise - all it means is that you're a spiritual leader. Being a priest is a job title.

The powers in question are effects that are created mostly through the force of belief of the priest. It's not some great warp consciousness actively casting spells with the priest as a conduit a la D&D, and the priests themselves aren't wizards in the sense you would usually mean in Warhammer - but on a nuts and bolts level, these 'prayers' are basically magic spells, they're just created and caused differently. Perhaps with a little spark of assistance from someone or something within the aethyr too, who knows.

[ManOfRust]

Rules-wise, Sigmarite Warrior Priests, Khemrian Liches and even Ogre Butchers used to cast spells in a 'bound spell' sort of fashion.

Skaven Plague Priests, Slann Mage Priests and High Elf Saphery Mages (Follower of Hoeth) have always behaved as true wizards.

More recently, spells are all cast the same way. A Priest intoning a prayer has to channel magic from the realm of chaos the same as a Wizard casting a spell with the same chances of the winds of magic being disrupted by a foe(dispelled) or drawing too much and exploding(miscast)!

In the fiction it is clear that some (humans at least) are born more sensitive to a particular magic; as the background makes pretty clear, Warhammer Gods are inseperable from Magic is it out of the question that a magic sensitive soul feels an affinity with a particular god and becomes their servant?

Magic and faith. Faith and magic. You could still be a priest and go through the motions but will your faith be rewarded? Hard to say...

[Bubble Ghost]

Rules-wise...

Let me stop you there.

Background forum.

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Skaven Plague Priests, Slann Mage Priests and High Elf Saphery Mages (Follower of Hoeth) have always behaved as true wizards.

More recently, spells are all cast the same way. A Priest intoning a prayer has to channel magic from the realm of chaos the same as a Wizard casting a spell with the same chances of the winds of magic being disrupted by a foe(dispelled) or drawing too much and exploding(miscast)!

I'm not sure what point you're making here.

In the fiction it is clear that some (humans at least) are born more sensitive to a particular magic; as the background makes pretty clear, Warhammer Gods are inseperable from Magic is it out of the question that a magic sensitive soul feels an affinity with a particular god and becomes their servant?

No, it's just that this type of character is not and never was what the warrior priest rules represent. Wizards aren't athiests and it's not out of the question that a person with magical ability would sign on with a religion in an official capacity; but in the Empire, the only people allowed to practice sorcery are college battle wizards - other types of spellcasters are illegal and punishable by witch hunter. And being a battle wizard is a vocation, not just a skill, so that would tend to preclude also joining the clergy.

Long story short, while there's nothing in writing making it impossible, it would take both a very unusual wizard and very unusual circumstances for it to arise. And as for the chances of someone with magical talent joining a church without having first been burnt at the stake, lynched or snapped up by the colleges of magic... not good, I wouldn't have thought. And the effects of that magical ability on any acts of faith they attempted to perform would be far from predictable, I imagine. Might be a good basis for a story in fact.

As for other characters with "priest" in their name, like I said, the fact that they're priests has no bearing on their spellcasting ability, they're separate things.

[Lord-Caerolion]

According to the Liber Chaotica, yes, wizards who can perform "miracles" are indeed using magic, they're just using a safer method, by "focussing" the energies through their God, as it were, rather than doing it themselves.

[Bubble Ghost]

Yeah, technically, that's true. It's just that describing it like that is misleading; it makes it sound more rational, more detached from being an act of worship, more like casting a spell, than it actually is. Warrior priests are basically just asking for help and crossing their fingers, same as anyone praying in real life is (although perhaps with an element of expectation that comes from that fact that unlike in real life, this **** actually works.)

[Lord-Caerolion]

Well, it all depends on the God in question being willing to have the energy focussed through them, which it's possible that they aren't, but perhaps it's best to think of it as a ritual. If they shout this prayer to Ulric, and are sufficiently devout in faith, Ulric might choose to answer their prayer, and focus the energy into the priest, giving the requested boon.

[CommanderCax]

The priests believe their deity is indeed actively interfering, but this is far from the truth.

Fundamentally there is no difference between arcane and divine magic. Elves for example do not have any kind of so-called 'divine' magic users.

It is said Loremaster Yrtle and Fineir were amused by the adamant priests and clerics of the Empire who were claiming they had no power or wish to manipulate magic and who insisted the miracles their prayers might bring came directly from the deity they worshipped. Teclis dropped the issue realizing that they already worked magic and saw no reason to inject doubt into their hearts by pressing the point.

Furthermore Teclis said, 'These 'miracles' that your human priests believe to be demonstrations of the direct intervention of Gods are just spells of another kind. Aethyrically sensitive priests channel quite unwittingly elements of the Aethyr's Winds through convoluted rituals and great faith, and then shape it with their conscious and subconsious expectations. Just as the Gods themselves are created and shaped by mortal endeavours and expectations, so are their blessings.'
In Warhammer faith can literally move mountains.

Thus there is no deity actively interfering, but the faith of a priest moulding the winds of magic subconsciously.

Divine magic works through the sheer belief in the existence and presence of a certain deity, thereby the Winds of Magic are forced into a specific 'shape'. It is like a spell cast by a wizard, but much more limited in scope as a priest can only call into being 'miracles' that fit the credo of the respective god. Furthermore, their method normally lacks the raw power as well as the finesse of a skilled wizard, even though their method is much safer.

The Elves understand the distinction (as some human Magisters do) – it is all the same energy, wielded in different ways.

A High Priest normally could not be a member of the Colleges of Magic as both use different approaches to a similiar goal which sort of exclude each other. A High Priest could become a wizard, on the off chance that he realizes how magic works fundamentally works and has an appitude to do so, but then he would certainly lose his faith at least to the degree that he won't be able to act 'miracles' anymore.
The current Patriarch of the Amethyst College (Viggo Hexensohn?) is a former priest of Morr if I remember correctly.

Bagrian is/was simply a very powerful priest of Taal and used Amber magic as a (admittedly) fitting abstraction for the tabletop game. I would not base any background interpreations on this gaming rule. Morgianna le Fey and all the other Damsles and Prophetesses of the Lady are in fact wizards and not priests acocording to the underlying background in regard to their spell-casting abilities. Though, they appear clearly as priests in regard to their place in the Bretonninan culture and hierarchy.

[Kaapeli]

I believe there is a difference between divine and arcane magic.

The difference is that in divine magic it's actually the god, demigod or other supernatural being that's casting the spell for the person asking for it. When in arcane magic the caster himself "sees" and controls the magical energies personally.

A prayer spell is similar to gifts of chaos that are granted by gods. The priest asks for a favour and his deity either chooses to answer or deny him. The priest doesn't actually see the Winds of magic or control them himself like actual wizards do. He's just a chosen conduit for his deitys magic.

This enables even those completely without any magical skill or knowledge to actually "cast spells" by praying for a divine intervention. Obviously it rarely succeeds but when it does it explains rare miracles that keep the faith going (eg. praying for Shallya/Nurgle to heal you and then she/he does). Priests are just more likely to have their prayers answered because they're so devout and have their deities ear + know the right words to evoke him.

So in a nutshell the difference is doing it yourself (wizard) and asking for someone to do it for you (priest).

[spetswalshe]

It should be remembered that Elves are different to humans, especially when it comes to magic, and have a very different relationship to religion. They've essentially mastered their gods over time while humans have been mastered by theirs, so the concept of divine magic is going to be pretty different. The Elves themselves are a lot more rational and atheistic in their approach to stuff, while humans are superstitious and prone to blind faith. So I think it's very possible that Teclis was stating a truth when it came to Elves, but perhaps not so much with everyone else.

I wouldn't have thought that the D&D style Thor-In-The-Clouds-Personally-Deciding-If-You-Get-That-Lighting-Bolt thing fits in with Warhammer Fantasy, but there's definitely some kind of difference. Divine magic is safer, more predictable, easier to control and much more limited than arcane - although this in itself is possibly because it's only ever called upon by people in a very fixed state of emotion, with a high level of self-belief and low level of doubt, aiming for a very specific outcome and without ever experimenting or reading up on the subject (and hence being exposed to and compounding the flaws of the writers).

It's also probably worth stating that not all priests command divine magic, or even all Warrior Priests of Sigmar. I'd be inclined to say that many of them could pull off the minor things - enchanting a weapon mid-battle so that it can harm a wraith, say, or the use of rituals like exorcism or consecration of the dead - but pulling off a heavenly smiting every time you unsheathe the cavalry hammer seems a bit much.

Let me stop you there.

Background forum.

Check your rulebook at the door and take a ticket, you'll get it back when you leave.

All books are left on the understanding that they shall contain corrections done in red marker in the margins upon return. Don't hand in the Blood Angels Codex unless you want it painted in the company colours, that's all I'm saying.

[ManOfRust]

Some Elves do become in-explicably linked to the will of their Gods - Ariel, Orion, the Everqueen.

Not exactly priests but maybe a similar bargain.

[Chiron]

Yeah, technically, that's true. It's just that describing it like that is misleading; it makes it sound more rational, more detached from being an act of worship, more like casting a spell, than it actually is. Warrior priests are basically just asking for help and crossing their fingers, same as anyone praying in real life is (although perhaps with an element of expectation that comes from that fact that unlike in real life, this **** actually works.)

One of the disapointing aspects of more recent fluff and the RPG is that assumption that all priests can cast spells all the time. Instead it really should be "some priests can cast spells when in a heightened emotional state and when appealling to whatever it is they believe in"

[Lord-Caerolion]

Nope, WFRP (well, 2nd Ed, at least) included rules for "non-magical" priests, who couldn't perform miracles.

[MvS]

As has been said already, there's a difference between those who practice the various arts of spell-crafting and religious figures whose incredible faith (possibly mixed by a fortuitous gust of the Winds of Magic or a holy artefact or even the attention of a particular Aethyric entity) allow them to work 'miracles'.

Spellcasters (like magisters, sorcerers and necromancers) in most cases can achieve more incredible feats with their conscious spell weaving than an extremely devout priest (say), but then again the spellcasters always run a greater risk of a magical backlash or daemonic interest where holy men and women don't generally.

Finally, Teclis' comments in Liber Chaotica and Realms of Sorcery were intended to be largely true. The Elves have different relationships with their gods, however, and its possible that Teclis underestimated how powerful and independent humans had made their gods (wittingly and otherwise) over the millennia. Just as humans have little control over their emotions and Id, so too do they have little control over the reflections of their emotions and Id - the Gods and daemons of the Chaos Realm.

The elder races (like the Elves, Dwarves, Slann and others) are different species altogether and their gods and their relationships to those gods are also different.

[Chiron]

Nope, WFRP (well, 2nd Ed, at least) included rules for "non-magical" priests, who couldn't perform miracles.

In one of the last of its rule books, after several years.

[ryng_sting]

I don't think it's always a case of the priest sub-consciously manipulating the winds of magic. To paraphrase Volans, the first Supreme Patriarch of the Colleges of Magic, why can a priest with no training perform feats that a college wizard can only pull off after years of study?

Essentially, an arcane magic user has the potential to cast greater spells, but takes a greater risk in doing so. Most divine magic users trade a fixed level of power for a relatively safe method - unless their deity has a warped sense of humour.

[ManOfRust]

I don't think a priest actually manipulates the winds of magic at all, the magic that makes the miracle comes only from within the realm of that particular deity. Whichever subsection of the realm of magic that makes up the god's concept thus powers the prayer - meaning that an ice god could never grant his priest the power to hurl fireballs, but a more complex permutation (prayer) could achieve awesome results.

A wizard has to summon and weave power from the individual winds of magic so there must be a level of control there that isn't required when drawing from that very specific well of power. Equally, the entire wind is available for the wizard to power his spells.

And then there is the issue of daemonic intrusion; a priest drawing power from the well of his god is going to be protected from the realm of magic because another entity will have to force aside the locus/vortex that is the god within the empyrean.

For the wizard, interference from the realm of magic can only ever be enormously risky.

[MvS]

That's true as far as it goes, but it's worth remembering that faith has power in GW imagery. Rigid expectation and powerful belief can actually make things real that wouldn't otherwise be so.

So various daemons, spirits and sprites can come into existence for this reason, and various objects can attain 'holy' or 'unholy' powers because of belief and particular uses those items are put to. Why? Because the mortals with the beliefs and expectations are essentially forcing the Winds of Magic that are always present in the warhammer world into particular patterns and places.

The complexity comes when, once created, these entities and items feed back into the cycle. Their demostrable existence and/or powers increase mortal faith and expectation that they do exist and do have the powers that they are believed to, and so in time they exist and have power independently of those who believe in them. They may also grow beyond the expectations and beliefs of the peoples who created them (or whose ancestors created them).

Yes there are also gods, daemons and spirits who have an interest in mortals and the real-world, but there isn't a clear division between the Winds of Magic, faith and spellcasters. There is a division, just not a simple one.

[Arnizipal]

In one of the last of its rule books, after several years.

Wasn't there a non-combat, non-spellcasting priestly carreer in the main book (friar IIRC)? Either way, it had been mentioned in the background of WFRPv2 since the beginning that spellcasting priests were rare.