How is choice a bad thing?Originally Posted by Ixquic
Surely competitive players must get bored of playing with and against the same thing over and over again? Embrace change, it makes you a better player as you learn to adapt.
As for the ghouls/skellies/zombies thing, just take what you like. So what if ghouls are a couple of points more expensive, other things are cheaper. Maybe its time to rewrite the army list?
You do have to admit that it would be kinda cool if different types of general (vamp/necro/liche(?)) caused different troop types to work better though.As for the ghouls/skellies/zombies thing, just take what you like. So what if ghouls are a couple of points more expensive, other things are cheaper. Maybe its time to rewrite the army list?
I dont have a problem with characters having abilities that make certain troop types better - in fact I like things like that as it helps to make themed armies, your suggestion is kinda cool
My issue is when the 'magic win formula' changes you get people claiming its some great ruse to make them buy other kinds of plastic men...
Way to early to call what will and wont work in the army list. We havent even seen what magic items and the full spell effects are yet.
Before you write ghouls off because they are now more expensive I would just point out that Skeletons being 40% cheaper than they were before means your units can be a lot larger which means that it will be eaiser to concentrate your magic for raising units just on the unit that most quickly needs it. Also like you I have no clue yet what the effectiveness of the new units or even the old ones are now rules or points may have changed.
The fact that a Necromancer can be Lord level, that wraiths and Banshees can be included as unit champions that we now have viable war machine hunters in Vargheist and Wraith cavalry. The last thing I am thinking is that anyone unit is nerfed I am just looking forward to exploring all the options and finding out what works for me
ZAlpha, are bloodlines included in artefacts allowance or go separately?
Necromancers can take bloodlines now?
Thanks for rumors
No more wraith or banshee units at all?
Henric Kemmler and Krell will be banished by my sword! I ll revenge my fathers death by His blessed weapons!
Ave dame du Lac! Ave Notre Dame de Batallie!
The arrows are clinging off your armor, but one is enough to your throat. And even if you are born a great fighter, you shall not come back home! (from a brettonnian chanson)
I'm complaining that there isn't enough choice between ghouls, skeletons and zombies which all have more or less the same job in the army. I'm hoping direwolves become a counts as core choice again.How is choice a bad thing?
Surely competitive players must get bored of playing with and against the same thing over and over again? Embrace change, it makes you a better player as you learn to adapt.
As for the ghouls/skellies/zombies thing, just take what you like. So what if ghouls are a couple of points more expensive, other things are cheaper. Maybe its time to rewrite the army list?
Are Wraiths and Banshees unit upgrades or do they come out of the hero percentage? If they are upgrades that's pretty great!Way to early to call what will and wont work in the army list. We havent even seen what magic items and the full spell effects are yet.
Before you write ghouls off because they are now more expensive I would just point out that Skeletons being 40% cheaper than they were before means your units can be a lot larger which means that it will be eaiser to concentrate your magic for raising units just on the unit that most quickly needs it. Also like you I have no clue yet what the effectiveness of the new units or even the old ones are now rules or points may have changed.
The fact that a Necromancer can be Lord level, that wraiths and Banshees can be included as unit champions that we now have viable war machine hunters in Vargheist and Wraith cavalry. The last thing I am thinking is that anyone unit is nerfed I am just looking forward to exploring all the options and finding out what works for me
My impression is also that skeletons are 5 points each from this description, but the one thing we don't know is what equipment they are using. They could potentially be cheaper or more expensive in reality if the most optimal equipment selection goes this way.
Too early to comment on ghoul and zombie effectiveness without knowing their rules. It wouldn't surprise me if zombies had regenerate 6+ for example (or a good synergy with mortis engine). Dire wolves should be a little sub optimal for points imo because an undead army should imo have proper core units and not just wolves.
668 - the neighbour of the beast.
Hmm didnt mean to give the impression that banshees and wraiths are unit upgrades as in not a choice from the Hero section. That would imply I know something about this realease which isnt true.
Why Ghouls need to be more expensive is beyond me, since they are probably going to get general nerfs through the book anyway, they were worth 10 points in 7th not in 8th. Unless they become living troops again, then maybe.
Its Zombies and skeletons that need pricing to be more appealing. Personally there should be nothing preventing you from taking all three.
I'm not all that encouraged, lets face it Ogres got really awsome this edition, it looks like they've done the same the same thing with TKs, distract us with a couple of shiny units, quietly remove the strengths of the army while ignoring the drawbacks.
Last edited by Maoriboy007; 27-12-2011 at 18:27.
War does not determine who is right, it determines who is left.
NOTHING so far fixes the BASIC problem with 8th edd undead so far. Don't get me wrong I love the models mainly, come back to that later. Now the 7th edd book had balance issues that where then multiplied in 8th eddition, but you could still run most if your other options and be sucessful in 7th.
In this eddition our core dynamic was destroyed
+ auto break from fear
+ reliable magic,
+ castable raising, just try doing 1 die IoN
+ victory through attrition & low active CR
+ being able to have both lord level combat and magic at 2-3k
Nothing of what I'm hearing changes any of this. I have long feared that this book would do 1 of 2 things. A: leave the basic dynamic as is making VC unplayable (other very "gamey"lists" B change basic dynamic to basically a living army completely losing the undead feel/play style.
As to the models/book. I don't like the cover art, although I'm happy its not Blanch style. The MoI/ CT individually both look great however, from the pictures we have, they are WAY to similar. BK are great, Hex well after the censors are cut off the weapons I think they will look good. Wight King is well just just OMFG great.
It's too soon to judge wich units are worth and wich aren't. Phil Kelly is good giving internal balance to the armies (usually, he has made some mistakes, see Space Wolves and Beastmen (wich he is not plenty guilty)). We won't be able to judge that until we know:
- All the rules and stats for all the units: sinergies are an important part of an army. What isolated can be looked as a sub-par option, in its army context can be really good (skaven slaves).
- Spells from the vampire lore and other lores the army can use: I'm sure we'll have more than the vampire lore. Probably Death (obvious) and shadows, and who knows if more. TK skellies seems to be crap, but when you put in them a Tomb Prince and cast on them a Killing blow spell or some Light spells....they are quite good.
- Point costs: Obvious.
-Magic items and bloodline powers.
I just hope VC to be an army with no obvious choices. An army that requires some level of thinking while writing the list and while playing. I don't want point-and-click armies where all you have to do is rush to engage the enemy with your tarpits and crush him with your monsters, with no other playstyle avaibable.
Could people please stop behave like their favourite army is doomed without knowing any concrete rules changes? How about reading the book first and cry afterwards?
Darnok [=I=]
Serves them right for buying a 'magic win formula' army in the first place.My issue is when the 'magic win formula' changes you get people claiming its some great ruse to make them buy other kinds of plastic men...
On the ghoul points issue, some of us were speculating a few weeks back that the points hike could be because the scout move is going to be included in the price per model, rather than being an upgrade on your vampire (one of the things that made the all ghouls + ghoulkin hero list so abusive).
Is there any confirmation in the battle report that they still have that ability, and if so whether it is or isn't inate to the unit?
Mantic Fanatic
Wargamer's Pledge 2011: Final Score 106 Painted / 28 Bought
Wargamer's Pledge 2012: 2 Painted / 0 Bought
Good sensible advice. However this is Warseer so you know that wont happen
Well magic items seem to be getting drastically reduced in number, so I wouldnt get too excited about that. The thing Im interested in most is the points cost of the mortis engine (if thats the vampire one), an ethereal throne with multiple vampires on it aint going to be cheap
Last edited by O&G'sRule; 27-12-2011 at 19:28.
Ogres just got two good magic banners; good everything really except the pricing on magic weapons. There's no reason to be pessimistic about even a reduced magic item count at this point.
TBH it sounds a lot like most of the real issues with VC have been ignored for a couple of shiny (and probably overpriced) distraction units. It was exactly the same with TK , they were going to have real problems simply because of the inflated reputation undead gained in 7th which really affected the outline of the book, now they can'treally afford to cut VC any slack simply because they have to keep them level with the screw ups they did in the TK book.
That brings up a good point, skellies can seem good, but you arent really looking at the skeletons, thats all the buffs you are pouring into it, really thats where they fell down, they kept the armies reliant on magic but made magic itself unreliable.
War does not determine who is right, it determines who is left.
Hi Darnok, you must be new to the forums
Yes they do. We see what GW and FW can do, and they give us this particular figure that looks half-finished.
I like all of the figures, though.
HOLY CHRIST, the cover is terrible! GW couldn't find a better artist?
Last edited by Ouroborus; 27-12-2011 at 22:28.
I have no inside information but I THINK those will be the new vampire special characters:
- Lahmian: Neferata
- Blood dragons: Red Duke ( warhammer heroes novel - only for special characters)
- Von Carstein: all the ones we know except maybe young Mannfred
- Strigoi: new one
- Necrarch: new one, i do not think Zacharias will be back as the main point of his conception was that he was on a zombie dragon and it looks like that is something for Blood dragons now. His predecessor, I don't think either (can't remember his name).
I'm curious to see how far off my 'prediction' is :-)
Posting Permissions
Darnok