Temporal inconsistencies in Outcast Dead (?)- Dropsite Massacre and Prospero's Razing

[Antigonos]

According to the latest novel in the HH series "Outcast Dead" the attack on Prospero happened AFTER the Dropsite Massacre incident. This lefts me wonder, why the Emperor chose to utilize his Exterminator Legions against Magnus (for whom his intentions were just to be apprehended and brought back to Terra to be judged for his crimes) and not against Horus, whose forces big E wanted destroyed.

This is not a post to provoke a flaming thread of the type "yeah, the authors have completely messed up the whole HH thing and its timeline, they do not have a clue what they write about, etc". I am just posting to hear for possible explanations to what seems a rather problematic piece.

What we know based on official fluff is:

1) Rogal Dorn WAS the praetorian of the Emperor and he was the one who was running all the operations while Big E was doing his thing with the Webway portal in the Imperial Dungeon. So, when the rebellion of Horus (because it's clear that before the Dropsite Massacre Incident, the acts of Horus had been underestimated) became know, Dorn was the one who coordinated every action to suppress it. Big E knew, but he did not get involved.

2) When Magnus contacts the Emperor and lays waste to Terra through his sorcery, Emperor is first hand witness and gets really pissed off. So, he sanctions immediately action against Magnus.



Based on the above I tend to think:

The Wolves were not loosed against Horus:

i) Because it was Dorn the one giving commands and it seems that the Wolves were taking orders regarding these matters only by the Emperor. Being the atomic weapons of the 30k Imperium, I do not think that big E would have shared the launch codes with anyone.

ii) As I said before, it seems that Dorn had underestimated Horus' treachery. After all, he send against him seven legions. Adding the Wolves would have been the definition of an super-over-kill.

iii) Simply all other legions were closer to Istvaan system than the Wolves.



They were unleashed against Magnus (although this seemed an overkill):

i) Because a) the other legions were occupied, b) Russ was the principal instigator behind the Nikaea motion, c) their nature as a legion made them suitable in resisting the psychic powers of the Thousand Sons.

ii) They happened to be closer to Prospero.



I would love to hear your thoughts.


P.S.1: I recommend without any second thoughts the book "Outcast Dead". Simply one of the best in the series, if you like good prose and lots, lots of pre-Imperium fluff. Just a tease: Thunder Warriors (yeap, the Proto-Astartes dudes) have a role (rather big) to play in this story .

P.S.2: It's a pity that only ADB stalks these forums. We could really use some info from Mr. McNeil.

[Antigonos]

So, no one wants to comment?

[Dead.Blue.Clown]

Late-breaking edit: The following reply is more of a tangent than it should be. It's correct, sure, but it doesn't explain the inconsistency in TOD. Maybe time will tell on that score...

But it was more just a ramble based on the many, many, many other times something like this comes up, and people assume it's an error rather than a fundamental part of 40K.

There's a simple fact that often gets overlooked and isn't really highlighted enough (I think) in the novels and codices. I know my next HH novel will hammer this home quite clearly.

You know when people say "The warp screwed it up" and other people argue with "That's just lazy"?

The second group of people fundamentally don't understand 40K. That may seem confrontational or controversial, but it's neither. We've all been victims of it, from time to time. I'm not accusing anyone of being an idiot. The flaw is on all levels, here. I'll explain.

The warp screws everything up. A fleet goes into the warp to get somewhere else. Half of them make it there together, at best. Several of them arrive and crash into each other. Another quarter take hours, days, weeks, months to show up. Another chunk arrive countless star systems away. Three ships are never seen again. One shows up in the right place, six years too late.

The same happens with communication. Astropathy isn't a cell phone call to another ship, world, or star system. It's a bunch of scrambled dreams in the minds of a psychically gifted few, who may be considered insane, or may be contracted by the Imperial Powers That Be on that world, and listened to. There's no guarantee the dreams are interpreted the right way, or this particular voice in the astropath's head is one worth listening to over the others, and so on.

The most reliable way to get a message to another planet is to take it there yourself. That baroque, lethal truth - coupled with the savagely unpredictable technology - is one of the main points of fundamental awesomeness behind 40K.

Think how long it takes information - accurate information - to reach people in times of war, on one single planet. Sometimes, it never happens. Often, it's a version of events, or simply delayed by any kind of interference, bureaucracy, propaganda, technological failings, or whatever else. Now apply that not to one world, but to a galaxy that can't be reliably crossed, that spans countless thousands of worlds.

This is why, when examples like this show up, some people say "Wait... what?" Because it's difficult to get your head around, and 40K's publications haven't always done a great job of explaining it well in the past. But now they're trying with greater frequency, it's still confusing, because people assume it's a mistake rather than shedding a better light on the setting. "Why don't these dates match up?" "How can the Heresy have lasted 7 years?" Etc. etc. The list goes on.

The answer is because the warp screws everything up. And if you think that sucks, you may prefer a different setting like Star Trek, where warp is just a speed, not an alternate reality of incarnate Hell where humanity is prey and physical laws no longer exist.

[Dead.Blue.Clown]

I should add, the above explanation doesn't cover the times people just get stuff wrong and say "Uh... the warp... uh... screwed it up."

Mistakes get made, no question there. But in the broader sense, the warp is the real reason, not an excuse to cover errors.

[Ithaka]

Dear Dead.Blue.Clown. Please write every piece of background for 40k ever. I've just been reading the new Necron background thread, and I needed this cleansing.

One qualifier I'd add regarding the Warp doing Warpy things, is that it should never be an excuse for lazy storytelling. I'd rather have a story that makes sense and works, than one that reads like a game of Paranoia.

I know my next HH novel will hammer this home quite clearly.

Also, like a warp-shark circling a doomed vessel, I swoop and devour your tidbit of information of future books (The tidbit represents the crews souls).

[SunTzu]

I think the question mark over it arises not because of the timing of the stuff at the other end of a warp-jump, but because of the timing of what happened on Terra.

First, the message was received that those sent to Istvaan had been massacred, and various other Legions had turned traitor. It was no longer a Horus rebellion but an Imperial civil war.

Then, Magnus "did his thing", which led to the Space Wolves being ordered to Prospero and taking a bunch of Custodes with them.

Now... there's no warp interference in that. From the perspective of the Emperor and/or Dorn and/or Malcador, on Terra, they learned those facts in that order. Why, then, send Russ and the Wolves after Magnus and the Sons? Surely - given that a civil war had begun - the priority should have been to either attack Horus or defend Terra? Magnus could have been sorted out later. That's why it seems strange that the Wolves were sent to attack Prospero after news of the Dropsite Massacre was known - not that they arrived there after that, which the ambiguities of the warp could indeed explain.

(Though I confess I may have to re-read A Thousand Sons, as I could have sworn Magnus' message to the Emperor was intended to warn him of the ambush at Istvaan, and the betrayal of the other Primarchs, before it happened. That was the whole point, wasn't it? To demonstrate that sorcery could be useful. I thought Magnus' crime was to disobey the Emperor's express edict, not that he was slow providing the info. I mean, if Magnus' warning came after what he warned about had already taken place, he looks a bit stupid, doesn't he? Not prescient at all.)

Am I missing something?

[Lastie]

"Why don't these dates match up?" "How can the Heresy have lasted 7 years?"

The answer is because the warp screws everything up.

One qualifier I'd add regarding the Warp doing Warpy things, is that it should never be an excuse for lazy storytelling.

Applied Phlebotinum

There's a story to be told here and the Warp simply doesn't have the time to explain itself to you fine folks. Now if you'll excuse it there's a galaxy-wide civil war to resolve in seven years, and the Warp knows that unless it does something suitably Narrative-ish all that unreliable communication and travel plans that Mr Dembski-Bowden wonderfully explained above is just going to make all this drag out for centuries. And we can't have that.

[Student]

Then, Magnus "did his thing", which led to the Space Wolves being ordered to Prospero and taking a bunch of Custodes with them.

Now... there's no warp interference in that. From the perspective of the Emperor and/or Dorn and/or Malcador, on Terra, they learned those facts in that order. Why, then, send Russ and the Wolves after Magnus and the Sons? Surely - given that a civil war had begun - the priority should have been to either attack Horus or defend Terra? Magnus could have been sorted out later. That's why it seems strange that the Wolves were sent to attack Prospero after news of the Dropsite Massacre was known - not that they arrived there after that, which the ambiguities of the warp could indeed explain.

Just a thought but after Magnus "did his thing" it took the Emperor out of the fight because he had to keep the portal closed. Maybe the Emperor wanted Magnus back on Terra to help fix the problem that he had caused. If Russ had returned with Magnus in custody he could have sat on the golden throne and held the portal shut allowing the Emperor to get involved and fight Horus. If the Emperor had been able to join the fight earlier it could have ended differently.

[SpaceTiger]

I should add, the above explanation doesn't cover the times people just get stuff wrong and say "Uh... the warp... uh... screwed it up."

Mistakes get made, no question there. But in the broader sense, the warp is the real reason, not an excuse to cover errors.

Which is why the Emp want to get rid of Warp travel for humanity and replace it with the Webway. The Webway would have solved all of humanity's problems by having fast FTL, reliable communication and being to be able to keep an eye on all planets thus lowering corruption etc. The Webway can even be supplemented by the Teleportariums found in DOW2 being newly built across the Imperium.

[shadowhawk2008]

I think the question mark over it arises not because of the timing of the stuff at the other end of a warp-jump, but because of the timing of what happened on Terra.

First, the message was received that those sent to Istvaan had been massacred, and various other Legions had turned traitor. It was no longer a Horus rebellion but an Imperial civil war.

Then, Magnus "did his thing", which led to the Space Wolves being ordered to Prospero and taking a bunch of Custodes with them.

Now... there's no warp interference in that. From the perspective of the Emperor and/or Dorn and/or Malcador, on Terra, they learned those facts in that order. Why, then, send Russ and the Wolves after Magnus and the Sons? Surely - given that a civil war had begun - the priority should have been to either attack Horus or defend Terra? Magnus could have been sorted out later. That's why it seems strange that the Wolves were sent to attack Prospero after news of the Dropsite Massacre was known - not that they arrived there after that, which the ambiguities of the warp could indeed explain.

(Though I confess I may have to re-read A Thousand Sons, as I could have sworn Magnus' message to the Emperor was intended to warn him of the ambush at Istvaan, and the betrayal of the other Primarchs, before it happened. That was the whole point, wasn't it? To demonstrate that sorcery could be useful. I thought Magnus' crime was to disobey the Emperor's express edict, not that he was slow providing the info. I mean, if Magnus' warning came after what he warned about had already taken place, he looks a bit stupid, doesn't he? Not prescient at all.)

Am I missing something?

Are you sure there was no warp interference Re: Magnus? Magnus' powers were boosted when he tried to break through to Terra. He was using sorcery rather than psychic powers.

As a friend on the Bolthole put it, bringing Magnus to account was as important as sending 7 legions to Istvaan to deal with Horus. That reason was "Magnus frikkin just blasted all the psychic wards around the Imperial Palace, damaged the webway portal on Terra, caused a daemonic incursion, and also nearly killed hundreds, if not thousands of psykers, including astropaths".

Would you argue that bringing him back to where the Emperor could keep an eye on him was not important? He was too dangerous to be let loose to do his own thing.

Re: TFH, we know that the Primarchs were sworn never to speak of their missing 2 brothers and they all knew what had happened to them and who carried out whatever sentence it was they suffered. Magnus knew when he made contact that the Emperor wouldn't leave him be. He finally knew his place in the grand scheme of things, and he had ruined the future of the race he had spent his entire life trying to enlighten and accept his psyker/sorcerer news. He was gutted with self-regret.

Magnus' message was to inform the Emperor that Horus had brokered with the Chaos Gods and was going to betray him and the entire Imperium. The only other legion he could implicated was the Word Bearers, re: Erebus in the dream sequence, but that might be a question mark re: did Lorgar also turn?

[Xisor]

I really don't think the inconsistency is the trouble here. It's the motivation and impact question.

Sure: News of Isstvan V can arrive at Terra before Malcador's warning. Hell, it could arrive the moment the first astropath is created.

The trouble arises from what we'd been led to believe (or alternatively what we'd misconstrued) about the motivation and nuance behind sending Russ anywhere.

Magnus sends his message, hooray.
Emperor disregards Magnus' message and sends Russ.
Russ falls on Magnus.
Horus actually rebels.
Magnus has to accept 'well, bugger that'.

Now, sure, that could be the way it happens. Except it's somewhat diminished if Magnus' message is a "Well duh" moment that just happens to obliterate large swathes of Terra in passing.

Unless I'm mistaken (and I've not rechecked HH:CV of late), the whole reason the Emperor doesn't get involved in the Heresy (and why Dorn is left wondering/on his own in dealing with Isstvan, indeed why Malcador's significant in the first place as he's running Terra at the time) is because he's busy in the Webway. And why's he busy in the webway?

Well, for one because it's actually up and running and they've been exploring the damn thing when Magnus' message arrives. (TOD gives the indication that nobody has any clue as to what's on the other side of the Golden Gates [not San Francisco].)

Secondly, that's why he quit the Crusade.

In Graham's version of events, when Magnus message arrives:
- The outcome of Isstvan V is already known. (Some doubt spread, but folks react quite credulously to it.)
- Russ is just 'hanging about' otherwise unaware of the Heresy, but ready to be sent to Prospero.

I don't deny that 'the warp did it is lazy', that's tremendous. If it's shown/implied/noted/indicated/faintly alluded to that Russ and the Sisters/Custodians with him are notably out of contact: somehow they've lost the knowledge of Isstvan V or it's been kept from them....HOORAY!

But that's not the case in TOD.

It's not helped that Athava and Kai Zulane skirt the Mary Sue boundary pretty intensely for weak returns. (Unlike Ahriman. He was badass, almost without flaw but also actually well depicted and pretty interesting to read about.) Athava, on the otherhand, is inexplicably able to do (for the purposes of the story) absolutely anything. It's even mentioned in-story "Ah, I see, Athava. You can't make people kill themselves, but you can make them eat a big tasty slice of pinless grenade cake."

TOD exhibits all of the weaknesses and none of the strengths in Graham's previous handling of things. His look at 'the power of the warp' was much better handled in Mechanicum.

---

In Conclusion

The only way I can see to make it all sit nice and properly is:
- TOD outright contradicts the idea of Horus nudging Russ. (Or Russ is entirely unaware of the results of Isstvan V. [Or Russ is taking recommendations from the head-honcho traitor.)
- TOD outright invalidates any 'vindication' on Magnus' part: his sorcery never had a chance of working because Tzeentch is a crap postman. (Tzeentch better not be delivering my copy of Aurelian )
- Edit: And, as SH's chum (who happens to be Sarah Cawkwell's other half) puts it: removing the 'explosion across the planet from half a galaxy away'-style threat of Magnus is just as important as stopping the other Legions.

The upside, I suppose, is that it removes any ambiguity from the extent of Magnus failure. And I might be using the word 'upside' in a new and never-seen-before manner.

[Antigonos]

@Dead.Blue.Clown: Once again you prove that truly talented people are also down-to-earth enough to mingle -even virtually- with their fans. I won't say that I feel honoured that you posted in my thread -I detest saliva-dripping flattery, but I am extremely happy to have you participating in this conversation, because, heck, it's like being a Marine and having the chance to speak with your Primarch. It reaffirms the truth in your belief that this person deserves your zealous adoration, it's fun and it's extremely informative. So, thank you for all these and especially for your insight in the workings of the Warp.

However, as Sun Tzu pointed out the problem in this case is not the Warp or how it works or why Magnus had to be apprehended. The problem is that even accepting all the above (yes, the Warp works funny, yes, Magnus at that moment had committed a crime more serious that Horus', etc), still the timing is problematic.

Magnus' message arrives AFTER Istvaan. No one disputes that the Emperor had every reason to go medieval on his ass, BUT the knowledge of Magnus' hubris was revealed to him only AFTER Istvaan. So, it makes no sense -apart from the sense I have tried to make of it in my original post- that the Wolves had been held back and not taken part in the Istvaan punishing expedition.

Also, another point that it is troubling me is that according to the previous fluff, Horus had tampered Emperor's order to Russ and changed the line that was saying "arrest him", to "kill the mother****** and feed his carcass to your wolves". BUT if what is stated in HH:TOD is true, then Russ by that time must have known that Horus is a traitor. Well, I suppose that in this case Warp-comms can be blamed, but I was just thinking.

Edit: Xisor has made some good points after I posted this. Thanks mate.
@Shadowhawk: I am sorry mate, but I can't see the point in your post. Read what I have written above [no intention to provoke a flame war, I am just being sincere in saying that I found your post a bit off topic]

P.S.: Again @Dead.Blue.Clown: I really hope you do the World Eaters. I know that you wanted to do the Flesh Tearers, but for several reasons you probably won't, so fight for the WarHounds. Apart from your prose, that could make even a "My Little Pony" story sound thrilling, it's you hardcore fan's dedication to the fluff that guarantees the quality of the final product. Especially when you have to re-invent or rather invent the fluff. When you do it, it seems like a discovery of something that has always been there and just presented for first time now to the public, rather than an invention. Cheers and thanks for all the PhD deadlines I have missed because I spent my days reading your books instead of studying "proper stuff".

[shadowhawk2008]

I addressed why Magnus had to be dealt with even though the Emperor already knew of Horus' betrayal and why therefore Russ was sent to Prospero and not Istvaan. If it helps in any way as a clarification to the above, then consider that Russ' legion may simply have been too damn far away to have gotten there in time to meet up with the other 7 legions.

Dorn himself sent a task force of his Fists to Istvaan. They never arrived either.

[Xisor]

Yet, the significance Graham gives to Isstvan V...it's not mention at all. Not in PBS nor in ATS.

Plus the War in the Webway. Magnus message arrives before exploration can take place - no-one knows what's on the other side of the doors.

[Antigonos]

Plus the War in the Webway. Magnus message arrives before exploration can take place - no-one knows what's on the other side of the doors.

This is also so true and quite of a let down. Except in the case that "only the Emperor knows" is not to be taken literally.

By the way it would be great, if ADB could tell us if the War in the Webway is planned to be part of the series.

[Xisor]

I still intend to write the War in the Webway, though I fear Rob Sanders'll beat me to it.

[nedius]

You all seem to be forgetting False Gods.

Horus contacts Russ BEFORE Istvaan AFTER he has been sent to get Magnus. So Russ was sent to get Magnus before the Istvaan masacre, whilst Horus was still believed to be loyal, and convinces Russ to not just return Magnus, but destroy him.

[Xisor]

@Nedius: We're not forgetting it. Graham McNeill seems to have.

(Though it's possible Horus' message goes into the future to chat to Russ...but then why would Russ buy it...he's from a future where Isstvan's known.)

[nedius]

exactly. It annoyed me a great deal that in Prospero Burns this part of the story was entirely left out (Horus contacting Russ before he invaded Prospero), as if they now want to pretend it didn't even happen.

PS. This is a shame, to my mind. It would have built up some great character stuff for Russ, when he's forced to question his actions. In allowing himself to be manipulated by Horus, he attacked a loyal legion - albeit one he disliked. He'd have to face up to the fact that perhaps his actions were wrong, that he made a mistake, that he has unwittingly helped Horus in his rebellion. What happens when Russ finds out about the rebellion and realises all this? Puts the lack of defence of Prospero together with all that happened, and recognises how he has been used? How he is then stuck from reaching Earth, unable to redeem his mistake? Huge ammount of characterisation wasted.

[Antigonos]

I still intend to write the War in the Webway, though I fear Rob Sanders'll beat me to it.

Sorry, have I missed something? Are you a BL writer?

You all seem to be forgetting False Gods.

Horus contacts Russ BEFORE Istvaan AFTER he has been sent to get Magnus. So Russ was sent to get Magnus before the Istvaan masacre, whilst Horus was still believed to be loyal, and convinces Russ to not just return Magnus, but destroy him.

I think that a part of my sub-conscience forced me to forget this. Good observation. Er, wait. Not good at all, at least not for my effort to find a reason behind all this TOD mess