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Thread: Temporal inconsistencies in Outcast Dead (?)- Dropsite Massacre and Prospero's Razing

  1. #101
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    Re: Temporal inconsistencies in Outcast Dead (?)- Dropsite Massacre and Prospero's Ra

    There is nothing that can fix one book printing "Magnus' cock-up happened before the massacre" and another book printing "Magnus' cock-up happened after the massacre" without either a retcon or admitting it was a massive (and blindingly obvious) mistake. It's simply not possible.

  2. #102

    Re: Temporal inconsistencies in Outcast Dead (?)- Dropsite Massacre and Prospero's Ra

    one book printing "Magnus' cock-up happened before the massacre"
    Which book do you mean? (not counting CV)

    Edit: A page number or quote would be nice, too.
    Last edited by Apfeljunge; 05-03-2012 at 13:16.

  3. #103
    Chapter Master Xisor's Avatar
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    Re: Temporal inconsistencies in Outcast Dead (?)- Dropsite Massacre and Prospero's Ra

    It was mentioned on the Bolthole: The Emperor's Foresight.

    It is possible (though somewhat unlikely and not at all indicated by anything in the books, so really covering over a mistake) that the Emperor foresaw that Magnus would be the time-limit on the Webway project - that the Emperor was racing against the clock and knew that 'something' would happen. Unfortunately, the best that the Emperor could do would be to dispatch Russ well in advance of Magnus' actual interference taking effect. (Knowing that it's not likely that Russ could/would arrive at Prospero until after the ticking clock as 'timed out' and the 'big event' has happened.)

    Unfortunately, that seems tediously convoluted. Somewhat plausible, but not exactly satisfactory (satisfactory would be: "Yes, reverse the order in TOD - simple [albeit big] mistake").

    So the rundown of the timeline would be:
    - Emperor begins work in the webway
    - Emperor discovers a necessary 'end point' of the project caused by Magnus, sends Russ to muster then head for Prospero
    *- Magnus discovers Horus' oncoming treachery & sends his message
    - Heresy breaks out (Davin)
    - Russ has his orders changed[?] (Emperor's order to deal with Magnus comes from before Isstvan III - conditional on some other things? Altered by the Emperor to account for the PB version, or altered by Horus as per FG?) and eventually arrives at Prospero. Magnus wiped out.
    - Isstvan III happens
    - Garro arrives at Luna
    - Isstvan V happens & knowledge gets back to Terra. Magnus' forces contact Horus after Isstvan V, Aurelian happens.
    *- Magnus message arrives on Terra


    * These two happen on Prospero in the past, before Isstvan, but on Terra in the future after Isstvan.

    As I said, not especially satisfying as it relies a lot on glossing over contradictory details, but at least accounts for the broad order of events.

    -----

    Apfeljunge - Deliverance Lost indicates that the Wolves had been dispatched some/a-long time prior to the dregs/news of Isstvan V getting to Terra.
    Last edited by Xisor; 05-03-2012 at 16:43.
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  4. #104
    Chapter Master El_Machinae's Avatar
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    Re: Temporal inconsistencies in Outcast Dead (?)- Dropsite Massacre and Prospero's Ra

    I might not read any more speculations, because I expect our really good speculations will be better than the actual one.
    Until I'm PM'd with better ideas, I suggest that this is the best pro-active transhumanist charity opportunity for this decade.
    Alternatively, for those with mechanical talent and ideas.
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  5. #105

    Re: Temporal inconsistencies in Outcast Dead (?)- Dropsite Massacre and Prospero's Ra

    @Xisor:

    The Explanation for the events you posted was what I wanted to point out.

    To everyone:
    Yes, this theory is convoluted and not hinted at in the books before TOD or even the books after that but they do not contradict it.
    There is nothing that can't be fixed.
    McNeill did this on purpose. Something like that is not written by mistake. It's way too obvious and big.
    Other authors confirmed that. Why do some people still think it was all an accident?

    Please note I'm not arguing against the opinion that this was probably a bad and unnecessary change.
    So far it looks like one to me, too but maybe the Heresy team will suprise us all with a good reason why they changed it.

    By the way:
    What do you guys think about the possibility that Russ was send after Magnus for his attempt to save Horus?
    The Emperor did notice that Magnus projected his spirit across the galaxy with really powerful sorcery.
    This could have created a massive disturbance in the warp that pointed straight to Prospero.
    All what Horus had to do afterwards was to tell Russ some of the things Magnus did or said during his "healing" on Davin or just tell some lies about it.

  6. #106
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    Re: Temporal inconsistencies in Outcast Dead (?)- Dropsite Massacre and Prospero's Ra

    Quote Originally Posted by Apfeljunge View Post
    Which book do you mean? (not counting CV)

    Edit: A page number or quote would be nice, too.
    In Prospero Burns, Russ flatly refuses to believe that Horus has turned traitor (p388-9), while he is in orbit around Prospero and about to deal with Magnus. But if he was sent to deal with Magnus after news of the dropsite massacre had reached Terra, he would have known that not only had Horus turned traitor, but so had a whole bunch of other of his brothers as well, and at least one of his other brothers had been killed.

    Russ' orders came from the Emperor/Dorn/Malcador, and he had Custodes as part of his force including Constantin Valdor... and all of those came from Terra, and were there (so TOD would have us believe) when Magnus' sorcery broke everything. It is utterly inconceivable by any believable means, that he would have had direct contact with any or all of those people (and indeed face-to-face with at least one of them, Valdor), and not one of them might have said "hey, by the way, you know how your orders are to get Magnus? Well, he's your target for now, but Horus, Lorgar, Curze, Fulgrim, Perturabo, Alpharius, Mortarius and Angron have all rebelled against the Emperor; they've already killed Ferrus Manus, and Vulkan and Corax are missing presumed dead, too."

    There's simply no reasonable loophole. (And the only unreasonable one is no-one on Terra thinking the massacre was worth mentioning to Russ, which is just stupid beyond words). If Magnus' cock-up happened after the massacre, Russ would have known about it. But he didn't know about it. So Magnus' cock-up must have happened before it, which is how everyone understood it all along anyway. There's just no way around it. TOD contradicted everything else that's ever been printed about the Heresy, and no clever "haha it wasn't a contradiction at all" clause is possible.

  7. #107

    Re: Temporal inconsistencies in Outcast Dead (?)- Dropsite Massacre and Prospero's Ra

    ^ SunTzu has said it all, I think. The story has been always been that Magnus' message reached Terra before news of the massacre, the Emperor refused to believe him, etc. That's really the whole point of the story; it shows us something about Horus, the Emperor, and Magnus, all in one. Magnus is the Cassandra of GW. Without the Emperor's refusal, we don't have anything showing Magnus' tragedy, the Emperor's blindness, or the Emperor's love for Horus (that he would be so blinded).

    Now it just doesn't even make sense. It's also stated, in False Gods, that Horus communicated - on friendly terms - with Russ while he was en route to Prospero... and why would the Emperor bother with loyalist Magnus, even if he had been disobedient, if seven entire legions had just turned?
    Last edited by Twisted Ferret; 07-03-2012 at 01:56.
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  8. #108
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    Re: Temporal inconsistencies in Outcast Dead (?)- Dropsite Massacre and Prospero's Ra

    Oh - and just in case the "Russ was sent to get Magnus before Magnus did anything because the Emperor knew he was going to do something" idea should be regurgitated - in the same scene as Russ refuses to believe Horus is a traitor, he knows that the reason he's been sent to take out Magnus is that he had made that claim during his sorcerous message. He's not been sent there because Magnus is going to use sorcery, and Horus turned traitor while he's en route and he didn't know about it; he's been sent there because Magnus has used sorcery, which (according to TOD) only happened long after Horus turned traitor... in which case Russ couldn't possibly have still thought Horus loyal.

  9. #109

    Re: Temporal inconsistencies in Outcast Dead (?)- Dropsite Massacre and Prospero's Ra

    Quote Originally Posted by SunTzu View Post
    In Prospero Burns, Russ flatly refuses to believe that Horus has turned traitor (p388-9), while he is in orbit around Prospero and about to deal with Magnus. But if he was sent to deal with Magnus after news of the dropsite massacre had reached Terra, he would have known that not only had Horus turned traitor, but so had a whole bunch of other of his brothers as well, and at least one of his other brothers had been killed.

    Russ' orders came from the Emperor/Dorn/Malcador, and he had Custodes as part of his force including Constantin Valdor... and all of those came from Terra, and were there (so TOD would have us believe) when Magnus' sorcery broke everything.
    See, TOD is not clear when Valdor and the Custodes have been sent to Prospero and for which reasons exactly. The passage is ambiguous enough to allow the above mentioned theories to be true. I'm really not saying it's brilliant or anything. It's just a way to cope with this unnecessary change because it is here to stay.

    Edit: Forget it. i reread the passage in Prospero Burns and it does contradict TOD. The conflict with the other books could be explained but not with PB. I guess we just have to wait and see how they will try to reconcile both versions.
    Last edited by Apfeljunge; 07-03-2012 at 09:03.

  10. #110

    Re: Temporal inconsistencies in Outcast Dead (?)- Dropsite Massacre and Prospero's Ra

    Personally I hope that they don't try to correct it, and just move on as if no mistake had ever been made. Sure the Outcast Dead was a decent enough book, but it's hardly going to be remembered as a groundbreaking part of the series, or a massively integral part of the story. I'd much rather just disregard TOD as non-canon, because any attempt to fix the inconsistency will surely do much more damage to established timelines and canon than would be worth it. At over twenty titles now, we're getting pretty late in the game, and whatever twist reveal/fix that could be used on this will just come off as hugely unsatisfying.

  11. #111
    Chapter Master ryng_sting's Avatar
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    Re: Temporal inconsistencies in Outcast Dead (?)- Dropsite Massacre and Prospero's Ra

    It's a major mistake. Russ gets sent to punish Magnus after he sends the message warning of Horus's impending betrayal, Horus changes Russ's orders en route...

    ...except that Horus has already turned, and all but destroyed three loyalist legions by this point.

    Makes no sense whatsoever.
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  12. #112
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    Re: Temporal inconsistencies in Outcast Dead (?)- Dropsite Massacre and Prospero's Ra

    Quote Originally Posted by ryng_sting View Post
    It's a major mistake. Russ gets sent to punish Magnus after he sends the message warning of Horus's impending betrayal, Horus changes Russ's orders en route...

    ...except that Horus has already turned, and all but destroyed three loyalist legions by this point.

    Makes no sense whatsoever.
    That hasn't been the case for some time. Russ' desire to destroy and truly "beat" another Legion is the current canon.*


    *Since he "lost" against the World Eaters per "Betrayer."

  13. #113

    Re: Temporal inconsistencies in Outcast Dead (?)- Dropsite Massacre and Prospero's Ra

    Quote Originally Posted by Inquisitor Engel View Post
    That hasn't been the case for some time. Russ' desire to destroy and truly "beat" another Legion is the current canon.*


    *Since he "lost" against the World Eaters per "Betrayer."
    It was the case as of Galaxy in Flames though where Horus specifically says he's changed Russ's orders.

    And Isstvan happening before Magnus's message completely ruins Magnus's story, making him look like the world's biggest chump.

  14. #114
    Chapter Master ryng_sting's Avatar
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    Re: Temporal inconsistencies in Outcast Dead (?)- Dropsite Massacre and Prospero's Ra

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Zarkov View Post
    It was the case as of Galaxy in Flames though where Horus specifically says he's changed Russ's orders.

    And Isstvan happening before Magnus's message completely ruins Magnus's story, making him look like the world's biggest chump.
    My thoughts exactly.
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  15. #115

    Re: Temporal inconsistencies in Outcast Dead (?)- Dropsite Massacre and Prospero's Ra

    So D.B.C said that his next book would hammer in the answers or something like that. So? What happened? Anything made more sense or even less?


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  16. #116

    Re: Temporal inconsistencies in Outcast Dead (?)- Dropsite Massacre and Prospero's Ra

    Quote Originally Posted by FlashGordon View Post
    So D.B.C said that his next book would hammer in the answers or something like that. So? What happened? Anything made more sense or even less?
    He said it would hammer in that the warp messes everything up, and went so far as to add a note at the top of his post that he wasn't excusing or explaining the timeline error in Outcast Dead.
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  17. #117

    Re: Temporal inconsistencies in Outcast Dead (?)- Dropsite Massacre and Prospero's Ra

    Eh, my personal head canon is that the message they are waiting for in the beginning is of Horus' fate after falling on Davin, then Magnus' message, then the astropath wakes up after Istvaan.

  18. #118

    Re: Temporal inconsistencies in Outcast Dead (?)- Dropsite Massacre and Prospero's Ra

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbad View Post
    He said it would hammer in that the warp messes everything up, and went so far as to add a note at the top of his post that he wasn't excusing or explaining the timeline error in Outcast Dead.
    If they want to actually try and use warp time travel to explain the issues with The Outcast Dead, then I'm dumping the book in the trash. The time travel is what you expect for bad DIY chapter fluff explaining why your chapter is actually a bunch of loyalist <traitor legion X> who just got stuck in the warp, not from actual paid authors who are supposed to be good at the whole 'writing' thing.

  19. #119

    Re: Temporal inconsistencies in Outcast Dead (?)- Dropsite Massacre and Prospero's Ra

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbad View Post
    He said it would hammer in that the warp messes everything up, and went so far as to add a note at the top of his post that he wasn't excusing or explaining the timeline error in Outcast Dead.
    Hmm? Sorry don't follow what you meant there.


    What he meant was that the post itself would not be an excuse or an explanation.
    But he wrote that he would "hammer in" that the "warp messes up stuff" in his next novel, and i was wondering if he made stuff clearer or less clear.

    And if there is spoiling to be had go ahead and spoil me!
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  20. #120
    Chapter Master Lupe's Avatar
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    Re: Temporal inconsistencies in Outcast Dead (?)- Dropsite Massacre and Prospero's Ra

    Hmmm.... been a long while since I read The Outcast Dead, but I don't think we need to blame the Warp for this one.

    If I recall correctly (which may or may not be the case), both the Istvaan incident and the razing of Prospero are only mentioned as in-universe news. So, while the natural order of things is the same (Prospero doesn't happen later than Istvaan III), the general public might learn of (and therefore start discussuing about) Horus' rebellion before they learn that Russ is sent against another legion, by virtue of the fact that it's harder to conceal genocide and the outright rebellion of four high-profile Astartes legions, than the fact that one primarch needs to have be escorted back home because he sent a psychic message directly to the Emperor and causes irreparable damage to his secret project that nobody knows about, because he did it using methods the Emperor had just banned,
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