So many potentially awesome combos that are just too expensive to actually execute....I just don't find myself happy with anything under 2500pts and even at that I still feel a bit short...
So many potentially awesome combos that are just too expensive to actually execute....I just don't find myself happy with anything under 2500pts and even at that I still feel a bit short...
I'm not sure why people are so enamored with the overlord on command barge. You're paying 210 points for 3 attacks that hit on 4+. I guess with the 2d6 armor pen it could be useful for hunting vehicles but you only get to hit one unit. And aside from vehicles using it to kill other things just doesn't seem to be effective. Just seems like not enough benefit for what you're paying, someone wanna explain why they love this so much?
it might be useful to target transports with low model counts inside.
if you target a razorback its only got 6 marines inside.
fly over the razorback, blow it up. get out of the command barge and assault the unit thats left in its wreckage?
im agreeing with all the talk of having more annihilation barges than the big cannons. sure its only str 7 but thats alot of str 7 shots each turn for only 90 points!
it doesnt have as much range but its a skimmer, abnd your opponent will be moving transports toward you.
the power to take over a vehical on that 1 special character will be interesting, as said before, using anything with limited ammo will be amazing, and devistating. even using up a hunter killer missile will be a grand thing.
take your average transport, and its going to be a razorback or a falcon, you can get a good few shots off at somthing, and maybe make it panic. or just thin down a unit your about to assault.
I'm zoning in on a 1500 I think I'd feel comfortable with--it's actually going to be harder trying to figure out what to add at 1750/1850.Originally Posted by KarlPedder
So many potentially awesome combos that are just too expensive to actually execute....I just don't find myself happy with anything under 2500pts and even at that I still feel a bit short...
And for reference, here's some of the math I'm thinking about on Crypteks vs. HDestroyers, assuming 3 HDestroyers vs. 4 Eldritch Lances + Chronometron. This is probably going to be really long.
The average amount of Penetrates caused by 3 HDestroyers on various armor values:
AV14: .333
AV13: .666
AV12: 1
AV11: 1.333
AV10: 1.666
The unit with the Chronometron is harder to figure, but the general idea is, you get to always use the Chronometron in the best case scenario. If you don't roll a Penetrate (likely the more common situation against AV13) you can use it to re-roll a penetration. If you do cause a penetration, all the better, and you can save it to re-roll the damage die if necessary (though against low-AV targets, you'd potentially be better off re-rolling a failed penetration and gaining a bonus pen, obviously).
AV14: N/A
AV13: .444; .611 with re-rolled Penetration die
AV12: .888; 1.222 with re-rolled Penetration die
AV11: 1.333; 1.833 with a re-rolled Penetration die
AV10: 1.777; 2.444 with a re-rolled Penetration die
The first number in each set is the interesting one. Crypteks catch the HDestroyers at AV11 and pass them at AV10 even without making use of the Chronometron.
But what the Chronometron does more than anything is amplify good luck. Crypteks have slightly less than 50/50 odds to roll a penetrate against AV13--obviously if you don't penetrate, you get another try with the Chrono, bringing you up around 60%.
But if you get lucky and do penetrate without needing the Chrono, you now get two chances at the damage chart--an ability that literally nothing else in the game possesses. Instead of having a 33% chance to destroy a vehicle on the damage chart, you have a 55.5% chance to destroy the vehicle, making it effectively better than AP1.
An important thing to keep in mind is what to use the Chronometron for, though. Obviously if you didn't roll any Penetrates, you use the Chrono to re-roll an armor pen die--that is the most important rule. But if you do roll a penetrate, the decision on whether or not to save the Chrono for the damage table is dependent on armor value and tactical situation.
Inherently, rolling an extra penetrate with your re-roll is better than just re-rolling the damage result. Two damage dice is better than one damage dice with the potential to re-roll--they're identical only in the case of destroying the vehicle. Re-rolling the damage dice introduces the chance of the result getting worse, whereas with two dice you obviously get to keep both.
So that means you have to weigh the chance of an extra Penetrate against the chance of the damage table re-roll doing what you want. In most cases "what you want" is to kill the vehicle, so a 5 or 6. But if Immobilizing the vehicle is just as good tactically (or it's Open Topped) you have to take 4 into account as well. Or if it's a Vindicator, maybe you just want to blow the turret off, so you'd take Weapon Destroyed into account instead of Immobilized. But regardless, you have to have in mind how many potential damage results get you what you want, because that's what has to be weighted against the odds of rolling a pen.
So once again, all of this assumes you rolled at least one penetrate already, because otherwise you'd be re-rolling penetration anyhow.
Against AV13, you would always save the Chrono for the damage table. You only have a 1/6 chance of rolling another Penetrate, which is obviously worse than rolling what you want on the damage table.
Against AV12, you have a 2/6 chance of rolling another Penetrate. If you only want two possible damage table results (which is to say you only want to destroy it, and it's not Open-Topped) you would re-roll a Penetration die--as the chances of either happening (rolling a 5-6 to pen or a 5-6 on the table) are equal, but an extra penetrate is inherently better. If 3 or more results are beneficial, you'd save the Chrono for the damage table.
Against AV11, the break even point is three potential results. If three results are beneficial to you, the odds become equal, and penetration die wins out. If 4+ results are beneficial (which I guess would be an Open-Topped vehicle you only need to Immobilize), you would save for the damage table.
Against AV10, you would essentially always re-roll a penetration die, as there aren't a lot of situations where there are 5+ potential beneficial damage results. The only thing I can think of, tactically speaking, is an Open-Topped vehicle that you desperately need to prevent from moving on the next turn (Open-Topped means Shaken is off the table, so only Weapon Destroyed would result in the unit being mobile on the following turn). Only when presented with that situation would you save the Chrono for the damage table.
So that got way more ramble-y than I expected, but I got really intrigued by how many options the Chronometron opens up and how much throught will have to be put into using it in various situations.
With the obvious exception of AV14, I think the Chrono makes the Crypteks noticeably better than the HDestroyers. Basically, if you roll average/badly (i.e., the Crypteks roll no Penetrates originally and have to use Chrono to re-roll pen), they're already nearly identical on AV13 and better on AV12 than the HDestroyers. But if they get lucky on AV13 and/or average on AV12 and roll a penetrate to start off, the versatility of the Chrono pushes you leaps and bounds beyond the HDestroyers, and in a way that is entirely adaptable to the current situation--which is the most impressive part, in my opinion.
These aren't decisions the player normally gets to make. You're just shooting a gun at the target, and the math of "what should happen" is already in place, regardless of what the target is. But the presence of a Chronometron in a tank-hunting unit actually allows you to adapt your tactics to the exact situation you're presented with. From the standpoint of the player, firing your Crypteks at a Chimera you want to kill is tactically different than firing your Crypteks at a Chimera you only need to Immobilize, and you suddenly have the means to actually adapt your rolls to that exact situation.
It's blowing my mind, maaaaaaaaan.
Last edited by DJ3; 03-11-2011 at 08:58.
Exactly. I've never had such a low model count in my lists before as with Necrons. These guys pay for everything, no gifts (except for the C'tan terrain power, which is underpriced).So many potentially awesome combos that are just too expensive to actually execute....I just don't find myself happy with anything under 2500pts and even at that I still feel a bit short...
We play a lot of 1500 point battles here locally, which seems very harsh for the Necrons. They definitely begin to shine more at 2500+ though.
Hah!
Last edited by Azulthar; 03-11-2011 at 09:18.
I think an overlord with scythe and command barge is likely to be quite a bit less than 210, the WD batrep quite clearly had a lot of upgrades on the lord that weren't listed on the roster (not least of which was his war scythe), but in any case the barge lord is the most efficient anti-tank in the list IMHO. 3 St7 hits with 2D6 pen on the rear armour of any vehicle is almost certainly going to penetrate it, even against land raiders you stand a good chance of a pen hit.
He isn't needed to provide orb support because your court lords can do that, and thanks to the Overlord's abysmal CC profile you're not actually losing any CC power by putting him in a barge (3 attacks at WS4, which will almost never be hitting on less than a 4 anyway unless for some reason you want your Necron Lord to mince around poking sub-par troops choices for the whole game), what you are doing is denying the enemy the chance to hit him back.
In addition your overlord will be protected by a Fast, A13 transport that can perform its primary function at top speed (giving it 4+ cover at all times) and can potentially ignore 2/3 of all the damage results it sustains. I don't think its an exaggeration to say that it is one of the most resilient vehicles in the game.
Last edited by Spiney Norman; 03-11-2011 at 09:25.
any argument to say that they're thinking of us by turning metal to resin is as convincing as a frenzied Khorne worshipper covered in blood, still chomping on a victim, with a Khorne sigil tattooed to his forhead pleading a case of mistaken identity when questioned about a murder.
People are also overlooking the ability of the Command Barge Lord to allocate its' own wounds on to-hit rolls of 6.
It's great for anti-vehicle, but it's also going to be great for picking out Meltaguns and Power Fists or other important models hidden within units.
1000 point games have increasingly become popular in my area.
Old Necrons were nearly impossible to play (totally impossible in the games which didn't allow duplicate units).
I am really hoping New Necrons can play at this scale.
Lion: Hey Russ, you'll never guess what!
Russ: Yeah, I know! Magnus is a traitor! To think that he could accuse our beloved brother Horus of turning against us. Impossible! But don't worry. I have taken care of it, Horus asked me to destroyed Prospero and I have. Magnus shouldn't be bothering us again.
Lion:... actually, I was going to say that Magnus was right. Horus has turned to Chaos, 7 other Legions have joined him and he has destroyed 3 Loyal Legions already!
Russ:
What was the range on these lances? We should get the weapons table in the post as well. Though I guess it won't matter come saturday.
Is there a range advantage?
Do we have a confirmed cost on chrono character?
Cheers for the math, I might be able to take a unit of scarabs after all. What are the saves on these guys?
I think crons might do better at 1k than at 2k.
Time will tell how good the lord with scyth in barge is at taking out armour, but otherwise our antitank seems to me the most lacking.
We can shoot most anything, we have plenty of S4-5 even S6-7 (annihalation barge) weapons to shoot anything we want.
What we lack still just as in last edition is the ability to take out regenerating units, terminator like units and armour.
At lower point levels the enemy will field a lot less of these leaving more units that necrons are actually good at killing.
1k seems great imo.
On the flipside we have poor troops and very expensive elites/vehicles. Also a reliance on (special) characters for army-wide support. Could you please post some competitive 1,000 point lists, I'd like to see what I'm missing
Quick and dirty review looking at overall options for Necrons.
I think they are going to be the Xenos GK but with more bodies on the ground. Lots of little tricks, bibs and bobs from their HQs, focus on shooting with excellent anti-infantry and counter-charge combat units but some issues in relation to anti-tank. Similar to Tyranids in relation to anti-tank not being spread evenly throughout the FoC. I imagine this is relating to 6th edition dumbing down vehicles just that little bit.
What is poor about 17pts immortals with tesla weapons?On the flipside we have poor troops and very expensive elites/vehicles. Also a reliance on (special) characters for army-wide support. Could you please post some competitive 1,000 point lists, I'd like to see what I'm missing
Essentially assualt 1.5 S5 guns on a meq base with RP. What is poor here?
I think its great, I would take as many as possible.
annihalation barge is 80 or 90pts and should be able to handle most of the armour you face at that level.
But yea, 1k points if for necrons just like it is for the enemy a size where you cannot take everything you want, it is the level where you take the core of your army, HQ and troops, anything after that is a bonus and you get a few of them.
Ok, 1k list:
HQ:
Lord with warscyth on barge (or a cheap hq)
Troops:
Immortals*10
Immortals*10
Immortals*10
Fast
Scarabs*3
Scarabs*3
Heavy
Annihalation barge
Annihalation barge
Annihalation barge
You have a lot of S5 S6 and S7 fire along with some scarabs for tieing up annoying units or for entropic attacks on vehicles, to give your immortals cover saves, whatever you need.
Last edited by Vsurma; 03-11-2011 at 12:22.
The Wraith (+the thing that lowers init of enemy unit to 1) is your friend if you want to go CC. In the movement phase bring your Wraith in base contact of the unit you want to assault. Then assault with Necron unit of your choice. Resolve CC. Too bad we don’t have assault vehicles…
Just so people know, I'm working on the complete stats for the Twin Linked Tesla Destructor at the moment, I should have them done today or tomorrow (I'm accounting for overkill in it's entirety, thus the probabilities are a lot more time consuming [And more accurate for the chance to actually destroy a vehicle, rather than just getting a Penetrating hit] than the ones done in the rumour thread) So they are forthcoming.
Sent from my Dutch mountain chalet using carrier pigeon.
Last edited by NixonAsADaemonPrince; 03-11-2011 at 13:43.
Isn't the eldritch lance a lance weapon ? That's the how it killed the av14 bastion in white dwarf.
"Of course you fight fire with fire. You fight everything with fire!"
lesserofallevils.blogspot.com My warhammer gaming blog.
Nixon, if you tell me the rules I can give you a hand.
TL is 1.3... times for BS4 models.
So...
How do we deal with Mephiston? The only 2 options I can think of readily are Eldrich Lance and Heavy Destroyers....
Last edited by Infidel; 03-11-2011 at 16:13.
Not entirely sure if it'd work yet but from the battle report it seems bloodswarm nanoscarabs allow the necron player to use an enemy character as a beacon for deepstriking dropping a unit of deathmarks in rapid fire range of a solo character like Mephiston might get the job done with them able to wound him on 2+. Not sure if the Stormlords the only guy with these nanoscarabs though.
That's actually a good point.
20 shots, 13 hits, 2 rends and 8~ wounds, that'd shave just over half of his wounds.
Combine this with teleporting Monoliths to get stuff out of harm's way when you really need to, this isn't a bad deal at all. I guess, think of them as slightly less versatile sternguards....
Edit: Oh my god, veil of darkness on these guys: Drop, shoot, disappear, shoot.....coolest thing you can possibly do to a squad of deathmarks.
Edit 2: Pretty sure bloodswarm scarab allow you to deepstrike Flayed Ones without miss, not Deathmarks.
Last edited by Infidel; 03-11-2011 at 17:22.
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