Tactica: 5th edition Necrons codex.

[DJ3]

So its cool to prove your point by saying that other units will come and support their beleaguered buddies and that's why scarabs can't compete in CC but then as soon as someone else points out that the scarabs can be supported too we need to make smart a$$ remarks about how skewed that makes things?
Sounds like your arguing both sides of the coin, awfully hypocritical as far as the argument is concerned.

I think you misunderstood the point. Entirely.

It's not about "your Scarabs have to fight 1v1!!!!1!!111@," it's about how completely overboard ridiculous the Scarab-worship has gotten. The unit was fighting Wraiths--the S6 guys with Rending and a 3++ invul--y'know, likely the best CC unit in the entire Codex. Then he describes it as if the Scarabs (presumably seven of them) swooped in to the rescue. Scarabs who--even with Zahndrekh's help--should contribute a grand total of one wound to that combat.

Sure, maybe that actually happened. And maybe somewhere, ten Fire Warriors charged a unit of Paladins and won combat and broke them and chased them off the table. That does not mean you should run off to the Tau Tactica thread and start telling everyone what an amazing CC counter Fire Warriors are to Paladins, because there was virtually zero chance of that outcome actually occuring.

We're not talking about the viability of Scarabs, which is what people seem to continuously get offended over by completely missing the context of the conversation. The guy randomly talking about how his Scarabs mopped up some Bloodcrushers? He also had Wraiths--which means his army looks nothing like the army we're discussing here. You just have to say anything negative about Scarabs right now and people come up out of the woodwork going "My Scarabs scared a Dreadknight to death by looking at it!" and "My Scarabs pulled Timmy out of the well!" and so on and so forth.

Scarabs are great, when used in their proper roles--or at least when the intention to use them in their proper roles exists from the outset. They also possess some utility outside of that narrow role, like most things--the Meltagun you fire into those Orks is still going to kill an Ork, even if it's not spectacular for the job.

But the conclusion people are arriving at in their joy over Scarabs (i.e., let's make a whole army out of Scarabs!) is just incorrect. It forces the Scarabs to perform tasks they flat out cannot handle. When faced with these issues, the common response is "oh well the Spyders will handle that," which really isn't a sensical (or even really applicable) answer. You can't simultaneously go "wooo Scarabs we'll get all the charges!" and then "well, I wouldn't charge that, I'll just let the Spyders handle it" because those two lines of thought are entirely contradictory. If you're waiting on the Spyders to save the day, you've just taken away the one advantage you had, which was speed. And then the problem beyond that is that--as mentioned--there's a whole lot of stuff that couldn't care less about three Spyders, and will just stomp on them and move on. And for the most part, those things are the same things the Scarabs can't fight either.

When you're presented with something the Spyders and Scarabs can't kill, that entire army grounds to a halt. There's just nothing for them to do. They won't have nearly enough Shooting to threaten anything, let alone top-of-the-line Assault units. And it's not like we're talking about some super-rare poor matchup where some odd unit happens to counter an armybuild, we're talking about:

1). Any Grey Knights, who aren't exactly rare at the moment
2). TH/SS Terminators, likely the most common Assault unit in the entire game
3). The vast majority of Monstrous Creatures, Tyranid, Daemon, or otherwise
4). Nob Deathstars, or any other unit with multiple S6+ attackers
5). Thunderwolf Cavalry

If you build an army entirely around Scarabs, you've got no way to deal with any of that stuff, and probably a fair few other things I'm forgetting. Even if we believe all these best-case scenarios keep happening where your Scarabs fight the things they can reasonably fight and the Spyders deal with the stuff they can't, there are entire units--common ones--that neither of those two things can handle.

Honestly, let's not even discuss pure Assault armies--what about something like a Vulkan build? We'll completely ignore all the Shooting that army can put out. What do you do about the infinitely-common unit of Vulkan and his five TH/SS buddies in a Land Raider?

You can absolutely kill the Land Raider, and then the guys pile out. They then violently murder the unit of Scarabs that killed their Land Raider. And then what? You Assault them with Spyders who conveniently happen to be nearby? Okay--you cause one wound, and we'll say it actually kills a Terminator rather than being wasted on Vulkan. You then take about seven wounds from Vulkan and the four TH/SS. Two Spyders are dead, and the survivor likely dies to combat resolution.

We'll assume their positioning isn't as convenient as the Spyders, and they have nothing to Assault the following turn. So what do you do next turn? Send ten more Scarabs at them? They're still healthy enough to fully wipe ten bases of Scarabs, even if we again assume the one wound they cause goes on a Terminator rather than Vulkan.

And on and on it goes, ignoring the entire other 900 points of Marines strolling around the board. You can present a single, common unit that is just an absolute black hole to the entire concept of 30/9 Scarab/Spyder builds. Even if everything goes your way, they will just keep eating whatever you throw at them, until you've pretty much thrown your whole army away. And it could just as easily be some MCs, or some Nobz, or some Grey Knights.

It's just not a viable all-comers army in any way. It's far closer to a tailored response to mech than a legitimate tournament threat, unless you can bribe someone to make sure you play IG all day.

[Sekhmet]

It's just not a viable all-comers army in any way. It's far closer to a tailored response to mech than a legitimate tournament threat, unless you can bribe someone to make sure you play IG all day.

Back in the old codex, every grey knight had S6, which meant they murdered scarabs wholesale. Now, they all have force weapons, meaning they still murder scarabs wholesale.

The funny thing is, it'll take an IG player exactly one game to figure out how to NOT lose against scarabs... bubble wrap tanks with an infantry screen. If the IG player takes a hellhound, it's essentially lights out for an entire scarab squad... auto hit, 2+ wound, ignore armor and cover saves, kill 2 bases per wound. Hell, even regular chimeras often take heavy flamers and multi-meltas, both of which demolish scarabs.

All the IG player has to do is stay back and treat scarabs like any other fast scary close combat unit and stop it dead in its tracks until they can bring the big guns to bear on them.

So I have to say, scarabs suck against decent IG players and they suck against even horrible GK players. That makes them pretty poor in the metagame, even when tailoring your list with night fight and spyders.

This is why I like wraith more than scarabs. Wraith actually solve problems that nothing in the list can deal with efficiently. Scarabs are just more anti-tank and possibly anti-infantry with Zahndrekh.

[Kalandros]

So as a new 40k player (when I have an army that is) whats going to be the 'casual' / 'all-comers' Necron army?

I'm definitely looking at that Command Barge as the first model to get and play it as either an Overlord or the Traveler.

Then I'll build up from there~

[TheDoctor]

personally, as a deathwing player, I can't wait for someone to try the 30 scarabs and 9 spyder army on me

[ascendedjesse]

So as a new 40k player (when I have an army that is) whats going to be the 'casual' / 'all-comers' Necron army?

I'm definitely looking at that Command Barge as the first model to get and play it as either an Overlord or the Traveler.

Then I'll build up from there~

Ask 10 people get 10 different answers, such is the versatility and newness of the Necron Codex.

[Infidel]

Ask 10 people get 10 different answers, such is the versatility and newness of the Necron Codex.

I've called it a while back.

While the codex is still in the rumour land, there had been many many cries about 'oh this codex will have terribad internal balance' or 'oh there is only gonna be one competitive build, Ward is %^$!' and all that bull.

It's true, there are units that most of us agree is not the most efficient place to be sinking your points (Praetorians, arguably Stalkers, Flayed Ones and Serza), but the fact is that you'll find practically every unit has found its way into one competitive list or another.

Generally speaking, any competitive necron list will be taking at least one solar pulse or have Imhotekh to reduce the damage you take while making your way towards enemy line and then play some target saturation trick.

Following that, you either play footcron (overload enemy with a buttload of MEQ bodies) or mechron (AV13 spam with Arks/Barges) with the appropriate support units. Footcron would want to have the means of preventing enemy assault or teleportation while mechron is a bit more straightforward.

[Kalandros]

Whats the point of the Solar Pulse when you're not under the Night Fight rules? It gives YOU the night fight rules for your turn because it doesn't say "Game turn" or "until your next turn" so your opponent isn't affected by it.

Or can "start of any turn" also mean the opponent's start of a turn?

[Infidel]

Or can "start of any turn" also mean the opponent's start of a turn?

Yes that.

It's a lovely feeling to know that you won't be shot at by those 36"+ range guns until you're close enough to shoot back.

Guard artillery is an exception though.

[Vsurma]

I was just wondering how people have been treating this rule - about getting the conga-line of Scarabs and a 1st or 2nd turn charge. It seems like it will be first in line on the chopping block for an FAQ.

Are you still playing it as-is for the time being?
or
Have people been playing it like the Reanimation rules (new swarms must be in Coherency with a swarm that was not spawned this turn) under the assumption that it will be FAQd, so might as well get used to playing it that way?

I don't think this is something we can really come to a consensus on, some people will play rules as written others as intended, others will interpret the intention differently so it really depends on who your playing with.

I personally wouldn't do something that adds 30" to your charge distance, I don't think you will find anyone that would argue that was intended.

I would personally limit myself to making no scarabs further than 6" from the original unit or the scarab creating them (don't remember how its worded atm) but this is a personal choice.

I do believe this will be faqed, you only need 1 person to run this +30" movement trick at a GT and it will come to GW attention.

[GodlessM]

It's true, there are units that most of us agree is not the most efficient place to be sinking your points (Praetorians, arguably Stalkers, Flayed Ones and Serza), but the fact is that you'll find practically every unit has found its way into one competitive list or another.

Regarding the Stalker being in this list, who are 'most of us' because I see them in nearly every list posted here. 150pts for an AV13 walker with a Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer, and tracking beacon that gives other units TL is a steal.

[Infidel]

Regarding the Stalker being in this list, who are 'most of us' because I see them in nearly every list posted here. 150pts for an AV13 walker with a Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer, and tracking beacon that gives other units TL is a steal.

Okay, let's have another one of this.

The stalker is a unit that needs to be close to be effective, unless you give it a heavy gauss cannon, in which case it's approaching Doomsday Ark territory. Close up he is basically melta-bait and can be tied up in assault. Lacking a DCCW or any power weapon of that description, unless you have means of counter-assault, that stalker is probably not going to be shooting for the rest of the game.

Sure you can flame and then do other stuff, but 150pt for a heavy flamer is NOT what any sane man would call a prudent decision.

Twin-linking is good and synergises with a few selected unit very well, namely Lance/Chrono court and Doomsday Ark, but being BS4 army-wide, it's really nowhere as valuable as you may think.

Due to it's short-ranged weaponry (unless you take a gauss cannon) and the fact that it only has one gun and is open-topped, even glance will neuter the stalker on a 4+ and a pen will render it usless on a 2+.

A Soulgrinder is always AV13, not open-topped, always ignores shaken/stunned, has fleet, 4 attacks and DCCW and for 160 it comes with a heavy flamer AND 6-shot boltgun AND either a battlecannon or a 24" railgun and EVEN THEN, it's considered to be a pretty terrible unit. 150pt for one alright gun and some gimmick is a steal?

[koran]

Infidel has basically hit the nail on the head.... If it wasnt for the stalker not ignoring armour saves in CC I would totally consider it as an option. But without one I find it lacking....

[Infidel]

Infidel has basically hit the nail on the head.... If it wasnt for the stalker not ignoring armour saves in CC I would totally consider it as an option. But without one I find it lacking....

If it's an MC or has DCCW, then it's a worthwhile unit to take. In fact, that'd fit pretty amazingly into a Nightfight list.

[Frankly]

Its a bit more than just a gimmick, you could really get alot out of targeting relay. But generally I agree with Infidel, there to many weakness inbuilt in the unit for its points cost.

[Lithanial]

Stalker = Necron version of a doom seer.

Except with heavy gauss it's longer range, can't be shut down with a hood, does damage rather than just allowing the re-rolls and comes on an AV13 platform that can skulk through cover.

For me, one stalker is pretty much an auto include just for the twin linking.

[GodlessM]

The stalker is a unit that needs to be close to be effective, unless you give it a heavy gauss cannon, in which case it's approaching Doomsday Ark territory. Close up he is basically melta-bait and can be tied up in assault. Lacking a DCCW or any power weapon of that description, unless you have means of counter-assault, that stalker is probably not going to be shooting for the rest of the game.

On the initial point, plenty of competitive armies have Multi-Melta and Assault Cannon Dreads, both of which have to work within the same threat radius as the Stalker making them perfectly comparable, and yet they are not forgone just because they are melta bait (then again, what vehicle isn't Melta bait since just about anything with a Melta is mobile these days).

Furthermore, if everything was considered a bad choice because it can be killed off with some effort in a certain circumstance, then most units in the game wouldn't be worth taking; even then it's not like they are the key to the list and need to survive the whole thing. As for getting tied up in assault, since that is one of its roles I fail to see how that is a bad thing (even Power Fists struggle with AV13 in combat).

Of course you are also saying all of this as if Necrons aren't a mid field army, the problem with your argument being that they actually are (most of their guns are 24" range). You are putting the Stalker in a vacuum with the Melta and expecting a fair trial.

Sure you can flame and then do other stuff, but 150pt for a heavy flamer is NOT what any sane man would call a prudent decision.

Ah sorry, how on earth are you paying 150pts for a Heavy Flamer? You might have forgotten but there's plenty more it can do and you pay for that also. You are basing a poor argument on an even poorer (and downright baffling) assumption.

Twin-linking is good and synergises with a few selected unit very well, namely Lance/Chrono court and Doomsday Ark, but being BS4 army-wide, it's really nowhere as valuable as you may think.

BS4 hits 66.6% of the time. With Twin-Linking it goes up to 88.8%. How is that not significant?

Due to it's short-ranged weaponry (unless you take a gauss cannon) and the fact that it only has one gun and is open-topped, even glance will neuter the stalker on a 4+ and a pen will render it usless on a 2+.

150pt for one alright gun and some gimmick is a steal?

You're right, a Multi-Melta that can also fire as a Heavy Flamer is only alright, and a targetter that can give the rest of the army a 22.2% increase in successful firepower is only gimmick. I must also be imagining the AV13 capabilities and combat potential.

Sorry mate, but I think you are using hyberbole a bit here to further your opinion. It certainly isn't as bad a unit as you make it out to be.

[Volandum]

Are we discussing the Heat Ray Stalker or the HGC stalker? I think it's best not to get the two confused, and I really don't see much benefit coming from the latter.

[Sekhmet]

A two shot multi melta. That's kind of important, imo.

[RTB01]

Has anyone used a stalker yet? There is discussion but has anyone had them on the field? If so in what context and how have they got on?

[Vsurma]

Stalker = Necron version of a doom seer.

Except with heavy gauss it's longer range, can't be shut down with a hood, does damage rather than just allowing the re-rolls and comes on an AV13 platform that can skulk through cover.

For me, one stalker is pretty much an auto include just for the twin linking.

If it worked in CC and you got to re-roll your CC wound rolls that would be awesome, alas it is not. The worse the stat you re-roll the better the effect from twin linking, at least generally since lower bs or ws models tend to be cheaper so re-rolling them tends to get you better results. (re-rolling 2 bs2 is better than re-rolling one bs4 for the same price).

If you could re-roll the massive amount of scarab attacks for example that would be great.

It might be really nice for re-rolling tachyon arrows, with tl you will be hitting most of your arrows which is quite nice.

Still I am in the camp that taking more than 1 is questionable. 1 provides synergy for the army, having two only really helps when the first one can't fire. Most necron lists don't have so much antitank to warrant two stalkers. That said the melta is unique on a stalker, you can't get it anywhere else in the army so it all depends.