Tactica: 5th edition Necrons codex.

[Infidel]

My only concerns are whether we have too many options that do the same thing, and hence the book will become cookie cutter due to some of those anti-infantry options just being inefficient compared to others.

Can you please elaborate? What is the necron 'cookie cutter' list?

Also, anti infantry, ask around, start a poll if you must and ask whether there is a definitive option that will handily out perform the others, you'll be suprised that rather than something being 'auto-include', you'll find a variety of options that is heavily dependant on what you have in your army.

that, and how we can beat the Dark Eldar...

By having access to 35pt S8 shots in Cryptek, S7 Tesla shots in the Barges, glancing fliers to death with Gauss and massed S5 shots from Immortals and that is on top of the heavy-duty stuff we take to deal with AV11+. The fact that we traded speed for point reduction means that we're more efficient than marines in dealing with Wych assaults too.

[Sekhmet]

How do you guys plan on building destroyers? 3 heavies and 2 regular? 3 heavies and no regular? 5 regular? Some other mix?

[Azulthar]

How do you guys plan on building destroyers? 3 heavies and 2 regular? 3 heavies and no regular? 5 regular? Some other mix?

I'm leaning towards 3 heavies. Don't really see the point of pure regulars, as the only thing they're good at is shooting down MEQ in the open (for which there is generally too much cover, at least around here). They can add ablative wounds and chance to glance to Heavies, but at their price I don't think they're worth that.

[DJ3]

Eh? I guess 180 points for 4 missiles (one of which can be rerolled) isn't the biggest crime in the book, but that's still quite steep and not even a very scary amount of S8.

The Chrono-Eldritch unit can't really be compared to any anti-tank unit you're used to. Making them sound like they're just bad, expensive Long Fangs is dramatically oversimplifying things for the sake of dismissing them.

Five Missile Launchers have a ~37% chance to kill AV12. It's hard to get an exact "odds" on the Crypteks, but they're more like 50%. And that's assuming you're not playing Zahndrekh (who synergizes spectacularly with just about everything) to give them Tank Hunters.

And obviously, there's a rather huge difference between AP3 and AP2 on your S8 gun in the current game--ask Paladins.

My 2 friends that I play with regualrly like to play Assaulty armies (Orks and Blood Angles).

Zoom across the field ASAP and unload and assault.

How can Crons deal with this? Hopefully go first-ish and pop thier vehicles?

I'd appreciate some strategy ideas.

As I believe others pointed out, Orikan the Diviner and a Wasteland C'tan will be your best friends. Turn 1 everything is Difficult Terrain (which is possibly Super-Dangerous for Vehicles, but will have to await FAQ most likely) but at the very least is giving each of those vehicles a 1/6 chance to Immobilize. Anything that wants to enter terrain to get Cover Saves or Assault you is similarly taking Dangerous Terrain.

The C'tan+power that makes everything difficult terrain for the whole game solves you 2 problems, he makes transports have the possibility of inmobilising themselves, sunders enemy movement and makes cover dangerous

[...]

enemy rolls 2d6 for assault in difficult terrain (due to C'tan) on average rolls they'll get a 4 wich will turn into a 2' more likely

I think some people are getting Orikan and the C'tan confused.

The C'tan power does not make the entire board Difficult Terrain. Orikan does that, but only on Turn 1. The C'tan just makes Difficult=Dangerous and Dangerous=Super-Dangerous. If your enemy can avoid terrain, it won't affect them at all.

Whether the model is considered a part of that unit (I believe the Wolfguard precedent means yes) is the crux of the issue.

Geez...the new Psyfleman....

Or, S10 Ordanance blast from Monoliths or S10AP1 from Doomsday Ark. Mr. Nemesor just got a lot more interesting.

Nemesor's utility is seemingly endless. It's honestly going to be frustrating trying to choose what gets what ability sometimes.

It's a downer that you don't get to re-pick the ability during your opponent's turn (only Marines are allowed to do such things, I suppose) to make better use of Stealth. If you want Stealth, you'll have to forfeit Tank Hunters/whatever else on your preceeding turn.

And Monoliths are only S8 now, so he'd only take them to S9. Though it is actually effectively S10 Ordnance for partials (as the +1 is actually to Penetration, rather than Strength--you could even use it to make Tachyon Arrows effective S11 because of that distinction).

The only 'negative' I can think of is that since both things happen at the start of a movement phase, you can't deep strike a monolith and teleport a unit in the same turn.

I'm actually interested to see how people interpret this. There tends to be a distinction made between abilities that happen at the "start of the turn" versus abilities that happen at the "start of the Movement phase," and only abilities that happen at the "start of the turn" have a definitive ruling.

And even within that 'definitive' ruling, GW sometimes backtracks on themselves and undoes it--the BRB FAQ includes the clause disallowing 'start of turn' abilities from being used on the turn a unit arrives from reserve, but then they said screw it and allowed Logan to use The High King on the turn he arrives anyway.

Why dose everyone forget the tesla cannon underneath the annilation barge which I think can be upgraded to a gauss cannon giving a (weak) anti tank or more anti infantry shooting it's a real good deal.

I don't think people are forgetting it, it's just that a vehicle with a 24" weapons range will not often be remaining stationary. Annihilation Barges aren't fast, so you only get to fire the Cannon if you sit still.

However many you can fit standing within 2" of the portal (its around 13 or 14), excess that can't be placed are removed as casualties. Of course, the number is different with scarab, destroyer and tomb spyder bases.

I believe the most widely accepted numbers are 15-17. 15 is essentially the minimum--you can fit a pyramid-shaped line of Warriors three-deep going 6-5-4. Some people think you can fit in a further two along the sides. There's whole threads about it lurking around from the past that can be easily dug up.

[DJ3]

How do you guys plan on building destroyers? 3 heavies and 2 regular? 3 heavies and no regular? 5 regular? Some other mix?

I'm leaning towards 3 heavies. Don't really see the point of pure regulars, as the only thing they're good at is shooting down MEQ in the open (for which there is generally too much cover, at least around here). They can add ablative wounds and chance to glance to Heavies, but at their price I don't think they're worth that.

The odd ambiguity in Reanimation Protocols has actually improved mixed Destroyer units, as far as I'm concerned. Because of that weirdness, they actually provide more utility than just being ablative wounds (and obviously they're more than that anyway, Gauss Cannons are still good weapons).

But basically with Reanimation Protocols just working with the "counters" and never actually equating to a specific model, your dead Destroyers give you a better chance at getting back a Heavy Destroyer. If two Destroyers and a Heavy die, that's not "two Destroyers and a Heavy" rolling--it's just three Reanimation Protocols. When you suceed on one (on odds) you just get to pick what comes back to life.

[Sekhmet]

The odd ambiguity in Reanimation Protocols has actually improved mixed Destroyer units, as far as I'm concerned. Because of that weirdness, they actually provide more utility than just being ablative wounds (and obviously they're more than that anyway, Gauss Cannons are still good weapons).

But basically with Reanimation Protocols just working with the "counters" and never actually equating to a specific model, your dead Destroyers give you a better chance at getting back a Heavy Destroyer. If two Destroyers and a Heavy die, that's not "two Destroyers and a Heavy" rolling--it's just three Reanimation Protocols. When you suceed on one (on odds) you just get to pick what comes back to life.

I hadn't thought of that! But it's absolutely true.

[Blink]

The Chrono-Eldritch unit can't really be compared to any anti-tank unit you're used to.

Why not? Nothing in particular makes them any more special.

Making them sound like they're just bad, expensive Long Fangs is dramatically oversimplifying things for the sake of dismissing them.

No, it's just what they are. 4 missile shots coming from 180 points worth of rather weak units is just an extremely questionable investment. Granted you need to get your anti-tank from somewhere in this codex, and if there really is nothing better, then so-be-it, but this shouldn't be talked up as something good.

Five Missile Launchers have a ~37% chance to kill AV12. It's hard to get an exact "odds" on the Crypteks, but they're more like 50%.

I'm having trouble figuring out how you compared the 4 Cryptek missile shots with 5 missiles and came out with the Crypteks getting the better end of the deal, even with the Chronometron.

[DJ3]

I'm having trouble figuring out how you compared the 4 Cryptek missile shots with 5 missiles and came out with the Crypteks getting the better end of the deal, even with the Chronometron.

Because--as we had a huge discussion about earlier in the thread--the capability to re-roll the Vehicle Damage Table is an unprecedented ability that throws the odds dramatically in their favor versus practically anything else in the game.

I think you're assuming they're just re-rolling a failed Hit or Penetrate? But that's not what you do, unless every shot fails to Penetrate. You save the Chrono to potentially re-roll the damage table, an insane ability that literally nothing else in the game is capable of.

Against AV12, their shooting is directly comparable to two point-blank BS4 Meltaguns. Except they're doing it from 36" away and inside an AV13 vehicle.

Edit: Assuming that most people interpret Monoliths as unable to teleport on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike (and I'm starting to lean that way myself) it actually makes even them gain a huge synergistic bonus from Nemesor Zahndrekh.

The Nemesor gives everything in your army the Deathmark deployment ability to DS after an enemy arrives from Reserve. It's obviously very situational--as your enemy has to be using Reserves and you'll be giving them the opportunity to fire at your Monolith--but if it's necessary you could Deep Strike the Monolith on your opponent's turn, making it immediately available to teleport on your following turn.

[Blink]

Well if you could reroll ALL of them for damage result, you would have a 48% chance. Hold on while I figure out the math of just one of them.

EDIT:

Total comes to .344 chance.

4 missiles standard:
2.66 hits, .88 penetrates, .29 dead vehicles.

So we separate one of them to add the Chronometron to

1 missile with Chronometron
.66 hits, .22 penetrates, .122 dead vehicles

3 missiles without
2 hits, .33 penetrates, .222 dead vehicles

Added together would get .344 dead vehicles.

[Axel]

>AV14/13 Spam .... until people learn to deal with them.

Like in Sororitas, with 12 Meltaweapons (in 6 units) in range during turn one and 10 (in five units) more to back them up, all mechanized? (@1750)

Perhaps introducing this special stone will be the only thing that makes the paper-tiger that SOBs currently are worthwhile, if just to wrap it up.

You save the Chrono to potentially re-roll the damage table, an insane ability that literally nothing else in the game is capable of.

At least not offensively so. The most Venerable dreaghtnought, eg, may do so if he is displeased with the first roll.

I'm leaning towards 3 heavies. Don't really see the point of pure regulars, as the only thing they're good at is shooting down MEQ in the open (for which there is generally too much cover, at least around here).

Thats what the C'tan is for. Forcing the whole enemy army to roll for ANY movement and pay for any terrain they cross is imho worth it from 1500+ upwards. Mind that any vehicle will also have to roll for any movement, AND they will think twice before hugging cover.

[Blink]

Against AV12, their shooting is directly comparable to two point-blank BS4 Meltaguns. Except they're doing it from 36" away and inside an AV13 vehicle.

2 things, first of all, how in the world did you conclude that about the two point blank BS4 meltaguns which have WAY better odds than we are talking about here....

And secondly; from an AV13 vehicle? What are you going to do, but a Ghost Ark for the Warriors and load the Crypteks aboard it?

[DJ3]

Well if you could reroll ALL of them for damage result, you would have a 48% chance. Hold on while I figure out the math of just one of them.

EDIT:

Total comes to .344% chance.

4 missiles standard:
2.66 hits, .88 penetrates, .29 dead vehicles.

So we separate one of them to add the Chronometron to

1 missile with Chronometron
.66 hits, .22 penetrates, .122 dead vehicles

3 missiles without
2 hits, .33 penetrates, .222 dead vehicles

Added together would get .344 dead vehicles.

The math doesn't work anything even remotely close to that.

You're assuming the Chrono has to be "applied" to a single shot from the outset, and therefore suffers from the odds of that single shot's rolls To Hit or To Penetrate failing.

It doesn't.

The full math is complicated (go back to page ~3 and look at all the madness Volandum wrote about it) but the base shots have an 89% chance to result in a penetrate. If they do so, you have a 55% chance to destroy. That 55% is slightly mitigated by the 11% chance that you didn't roll an original Penetrate, which brings it down closer to 50%.

And secondly; from an AV13 vehicle? What are you going to do, but a Ghost Ark for the Warriors and load the Crypteks aboard it?

Yep.

[Infidel]

And secondly; from an AV13 vehicle? What are you going to do, but a Ghost Ark for the Warriors and load the Crypteks aboard it?

That's what I plan to do too.

The Nemesor gives everything in your army the Deathmark deployment ability to DS after an enemy arrives from Reserve. It's obviously very situational--as your enemy has to be using Reserves and you'll be giving them the opportunity to fire at your Monolith--but if it's necessary you could Deep Strike the Monolith on your opponent's turn, making it immediately available to teleport on your following turn.

I've been grappling with this for a little while now.

Is Nemesor worth 185pt? The best rule he can give out are Hit'n'Run for the C'tan, counter-attack for Lychguard and Tank Hunter for anything that shoots.

Besides making the C'tan more mobile, surely it's cheaper to just get more heavy destroyers for the ranged shooting. S9 court with rerolling damage table is great, but not 185pt-worth-of-overhead good.

[DJ3]

Is Nemesor worth 185pt? The best rule he can give out are Hit'n'Run for the C'tan, counter-attack for Lychguard and Tank Hunter for anything that shoots.

Besides making the C'tan more mobile, surely it's cheaper to just get more heavy destroyers for the ranged shooting. S9 court with rerolling damage table is great, but not 185pt-worth-of-overhead good.

Stealth! Stealthstealthstealth.

If I decide to run him instead of Orikan, he'll spend most of his life giving Stealth to Anrakyr's Command Barge for 3+ Flat Out Goodness.

He also has a Res Orb and adds a bucketload of survivability to whatever you put him with.

Still unsure he's worth his cost, obviously. Just a lot of flexibility there.

And taking away those special rules is a big deal as well. GK have Shrouding protecting their vehicles, removing Furious Charge makes Orks incapable of harming a C'tan, the Commissar's Magical Coat 50-man Stealth IG Blobs, etc.

[Blink]

The full math is complicated (go back to page ~3 and look at all the madness Volandum wrote about it) but the base shots have an 89% chance to result in a penetrate. If they do so, you have a 55% chance to destroy.

I saw your math and this is where you lose me. How did you get 55% chance to destroy? It's still times 5/9 with the Chronometron as far as I can tell... which comes up under 50%... and I believe that's for all 4, not just 1.

[Infidel]

Stealth! Stealthstealthstealth.

If I decide to run him instead of Orikan, he'll spend most of his life giving Stealth to Anrakyr's Command Barge for 3+ Flat Out Goodness.

Forgot about stealth....but is that worth 185pt just to move his save from 4++ to 3++?

He also has a Res Orb and adds a bucketload of survivability to whatever you put him with.

Mostly with Lychguards or Deathmarks....

Oh and, he's not a Phaeron. You LIED TO ME!

I saw your math and this is where you lose me. How did you get 55% chance to destroy?

It's about conditional probability. Unless not a single Eldrich lance manages to penetrate, the fact that you can reroll a damage roll that fails to destroy is a big bonus. I'll have to do some checking to see if the original maths is right but it's not a simple Markov chain.

[DJ3]

Forgot about stealth....but is that worth 185pt just to move his save from 4++ to 3++?

Mostly with Lychguards or Deathmarks....

Oh and, he's not a Phaeron. You LIED TO ME!

I never said he was! Stormlord and Trazyn are.

[DJ3]

I saw your math and this is where you lose me. How did you get 55% chance to destroy? It's still times 5/9 with the Chronometron as far as I can tell... which comes up under 50%... and I believe that's for all 4, not just 1.

It's like this:

The 4 Eldritch Lances have an 8/9 chance to Penetrate AV12. In those 8/9 possible scenarios, they have a 55% chance to destroy the vehicle--49.38%.

In the other 1/9 possible scenarios, they'll re-roll a failed Penetrate. In that scenario that only occurs 1/9 of the time, they have a 1/9 chance of destroying the vehicle--1.23%.

It's a grand total of just over 50%. The only thing not taken into account is missing all four shots (so 4d6 all resulting in 1-2) which probabably shaves off a fraction of a percent and settles it back down to almost exactly 50%.

[Blink]

It's about conditional probability. Unless not a single Eldrich lance manages to penetrate, the fact that you can reroll a damage roll that fails to destroy is a big bonus. I'll have to do some checking to see if the original maths is right but it's not a simple Markov chain.

I believe their math is wrong though. Even Volandum gets his math wrong sometimes and he admits it. I had to point out several flaws to him on his awesome big graph of stats that I love so much.

And yeah conditional probability... You have a .888 chance without the Chronometron to penetrate and 1.22 with it.

From the .888, you should have a .344 chance to destroy it with the Chronometron ( which is the math I used before)

With the 1.22, you have a .40 chance to penetrate. The only way, as far as I can tell, that they could get close to a 50% chance, is if the math got jumbled somewhere along the way, and they factored in the 5/9 odds of rolling a 5 or a 6 for EACH dice.

In those 8/9 possible scenarios, they have a 55% chance to destroy the vehicle--49.38%.

Yeah where do those numbers come from?

[DJ3]

From the .888, you should have a .344 chance to destroy it with the Chronometron ( which is the math I used before)

Eh? The .888 represents the chance that you rolled a Penetrate.

If you roll a Penetrate, the Chronometron puts you at a simple 55% chance to destroy--it's simply the odds of getting a 5 or 6 on 2d6. I have no idea where you're getting .344 from--that's barely the odds of killing it with one Penetrate roll.