Deliverance Lost [Spoilers]

[Kiro]

Just finished a couple of days ago. Overall, I'd give the book a 6/10. Not great, but not bad.

Some points for consideration;

Maybe it's a retcon I missed, but I got the impression from DL that all Chaplains are from the Word Bearers.
Why?
I thought Chaplains were a newly created, internal office, with the incumbent being selected from within the legion.

The Word Bearer's execution was pointless, and I was rankled by Corax's newfound "Chaos bloodhound" ability to sense Chaotic taint. I'd rather we discovered later that the Chaplain was actually innocent.

Nice to see the Custodes growling at Corax for questioning Nikaea; that combined with the oath the Emperor made him swear put the Thousand Sons and Magnus in a new light for me.

The puzzle sequence was ridiculous. IIRC, the 'solution' could just as easily have been to throw enough bodies at the complex to confuse it. A huge security risk.

Huge sigh of relief with the Alpha Legion; couple of plot points in there could/should have been the epilogue for Legion - not all the AL really know why the Legion betrayed the Emperor, moving the image away from them all being covert loyalists.

I was genuinely surprised to discover that Solaro was one of the operatives. I expected it to be Agapito long before there were any hints dropped in DL; something about his description at the end of Raven's Flight.

The assault on the Perfect Fortress read more like an epilogue; the book could just as easily have ended before that. I'm not complaining, mind, just saying...

[shadowhawk2008]

The Word Bearers were already using Chaplains when they were humbled at Monarchia all those years ago IIRC. So it would have perfect sense for the other legions to benefit from their "expertise" so to speak in training their own chaplains.

And no one can really argue that Chaplains aren't fervent warriors

[Ron Burgundy]

IIRC, it actually says somewhere (Index Astartes? The First Heretic?) that Word Bearers were disseminated throughout the legions to carry out the Chaplain Edict - which allowed them/Horus to plant seeds and work out which legions were viable for turning.
There were certainly 'home grown' Chaplains by the onset of the Heresy, one of the main characters in the Dark Angels HH books is a DA Chaplain. Although Fallen Angels has some continuity issues, mind...

[Xisor]

The Chaplains, IIRC, were enacted to help in enforcing the Nikaea edict, following the template set by the Word Bearer's chaplains. (Who, presumably after Monarchia, became something of a [false] template for Astartes-Iterator fusions?)

Well, anyway, wasn't it also stated that Corax refused to deploy alongside legions utilising psykers? Did I make that up? (Plainly retconned in Deliverance Lost as, as we know, a former Librarian has something of a notable presence in the book!)

The Word Bearer chaplain, I found, served two purposes in the book:
1- Highlighting Corax's own personal reaction, reinforcing/developing it for those who'd read the preceding stories or presenting a clear look for those who haven't.
2- Ensuring the universe is makes sense. We know Word Bearers chaplains are 'abroad' in the galaxy. (Though we also know Thousand Sons took educational tours with other legions, though we're a bit advanced to see them. It'd be reasonable/nice, IMO, to see them in flashbacks to pre-Nikaea.) In this manner it is sensible that there would be 'loose ends' left lying all around the galaxy so as to either sow confusion or, at least, not to alert suspicion by removing them immediately.

As for Corax's 'Chaos scent': he is a primarch. They're psychic. The 40k RPGs model it mechanically as 'psyniscience' a broad perception of the sea of souls. The trained 'inner eye' can detect such things.

Corax, having been face to face with Lorgar in the heat of his 'awakening/reforging' at Isstvan...he'd recognise the scent now.

I didn't find it jarring at all.

---

The Labyrinth

Perhaps I'm overfond of the concept more than the execution, but regardless: I thoroughly enjoyed the sequence. The whole thing was sheer delight. The book went to lengths to depict and outright state that the Emperor's memories were merely that: flashes of insight and knowledge to supply knowledge that couldn't be known otherwise. The solutions to all problems, however, were not included. The Labyrinth was one such puzzle.

Not only that, but I adored the sequence. Arguably it's gratuitous, but in that case I feel the same accusation could be levelled at the whole Heresy series without being facetious: what's the point?

It was well done, it offered an exploration, an insight into the capacity and sort of 'infinite' problem a primarch's mind can orchestrate a solution to...

I can entirely sympathise with not enjoying it. Well, I can't, but I can imagine why someone might not; it's something I rather enjoy, but I know not everyone does. But that it's bad? I'm not convinced.

(Unlike, say, the madcap 'win by standing in a line' destruction of innumerable hordes in Brothers of the Snake.*)

* Something that I'm convinced isn't just it being 'not my style'; it's a tangible problem, of sorts. (Though certainly a problem many folks happily overlook, much to my vexation.)

[Kiro]

The Chaplains, IIRC, were enacted to help in enforcing the Nikaea edict, following the template set by the Word Bearer's chaplains

I accept this as true, but where did it come from? I feel like I missed something, somewhere, as the first time I heard of this was on here.

Well, anyway, wasn't it also stated that Corax refused to deploy alongside legions utilising psykers? Did I make that up? (Plainly retconned in Deliverance Lost as, as we know, a former Librarian has something of a notable presence in the book!)

Unless it's something from IA, I think you're confusing a part from ATS where Ahriman is describing the Thousand Sons' most vocal critics: Russ, Dorn, Mortarion and Corax.

As for Corax's 'Chaos scent': he is a primarch. They're psychic. The 40k RPGs model it mechanically as 'psyniscience' a broad perception of the sea of souls. The trained 'inner eye' can detect such things.

Perhaps I'd rather they'd expanded on the issue a little prior to this; Magnus or Lorgar picking up the scent quickly I could accept, but a combat-oriented Primarch with little formal education...seemed we got from A to C while skipping B.

[Xisor]

I could be wrong on the chaplain point, perhaps someone else could double check, but I'm almost certain now that it's from Horus Heresy: Collected Visions, only a few pages separate from the much-maligned change from 'Emperor banned sorcery' to 'Emperor banned psykery'. (Forunately, HH:CV also gave me the war in the webway, so I'm happy enough. )

As for Corax's refusal, I think it might well be the IA - I don't think it's been mentioned in the HH itself (beyond the critics you mention).

As for the Chaos-scent: I may well be somewhat too comfortable with the idea, unfortunately! That said, it's played with a little in Aurelian, to an extent, even in the extract from it. The "You are not Fulgrim" line from Lorgar.

As an aside, the idea that it's innate once 'exposed' does play up the idea of them being sons of the Emperor with profound insight into the nature of the universe.

(Or, to put it another way, Gav's take might be out of sync with some of the other authors because he's trying to be a bit more...visionary(?) about it. It's a vaguely silly complaint, but there're big gulfs 'missing' in existing HH books - for example, where are Sons of Horus techmarines, ex-librarians and chaplains? That Corax had that sense seems suitable for being...legitimate. [Though one wonders why Alpharius mightn't have detected similarly looking out at Erebus? {Erebus is too careful/good?}])

[Scribe of Khorne]

I think (regarding the WB Chaplain) its something the HH team has brought up as I have seen it before in other stories. Chaos as a physical/sensory taint. They talk of its smell/taste on the air. For someone who is a Primarch who now knows what it is he is sensing, I had no issue whatsoever with him going all crazy. One of few parts of the book I liked.

[lovelessmerc]

great read imo, we get to see corax using his power whip and his claws to devestating effect against emperors children which imo is worth buyin it. plus we get a description of the phalanx more info on the palace and terra and a rough estimate for the number of fists at large in the galaxy. my faviorte part was when omega was wearing the herakli suit. oh and the herakli is a mechanium war machine with rotary cannon as an arm and wearing mechanium robes. i think its the guy on the cover Mechanium.

[SunTzu]

Dunno about that, I mean yeah, we got a bunch of facts and a few celebrity cameos, but I read a book mainly for its story, and I thought the DL story was dreadful.

To each their own of course.

[SoicedeSpouch]

You have hit the mark. It seems to me it is very good thought. Completely with you I will agree.

[MarcusAurelius]

EDIT

ten characters

[FlashGordon]

The Labyrinth sequence was not great, but i do enjoy the small nod towards the movie Cube.
It just makes me wonder why anyone would build such giant waste of resources imo.

[Rob]

Just finished Deliverance. I have a question...

Omegon has the data on the Primarch gene code and Corax still has the actual DNA but it is still corrupted correct?

[Casper Hawser]

I loved Ravens Flight so I was really looking forward to this one but for me it was one of the worse in the series. I didn't like the fact that Corax in Ravens Flight mentions that Angron is the most dangerous of the Primarchs apart from maybe Horus and Sanguinus and then in DL he says he and Horus were evenly matched in the practise cages (make your mind up Mr Thorpe).
Also when Corax gathers the remberancers on Deliverance they start heckling him about going back to Terra even Astartes struggle to look their Primarchs in the eye when they meet them I just couldn't imagine people doing that when in the prescence of one of the Emperors sons.

[shadowhawk2008]

They don't necessarily contradict each other. Angron is an out-of-control ballistic missile. Horus, Sanguinius and Corax are refined weapons of war.

And come on. Corax has just confiscated all their material and basically told them to go F off back to Terra. You think people are gonna react normally to that??

[Casper Hawser]

They don't necessarily contradict each other. Angron is an out-of-control ballistic missile. Horus, Sanguinius and Corax are refined weapons of war.

And come on. Corax has just confiscated all their material and basically told them to go F off back to Terra. You think people are gonna react normally to that??

That could well have been the first time they had seen a primarch so yeah they might have complained but not until he had left the room (he's not David Cameron he's more of a demi God) remember when Kasper meets Russ for the first time he just mumbles and stutters for a while and he's been around the wolves for about 4 years since they woke him. And when Horus speaks to the remberancers during Istvaan III they just wet themselves and die (I'm exaggerating of course). It just didn't ring true for me.
It might be because I listened to that one on mp3 instead of reading the book it just sounded like they were heckling him but in terms of quality I had just read the outcast dead, soul hunter which had a much better feel to them and since listening to it ive read know no fear which captures the feel of the Ultra marines perfectly. I would like to know where it happens in the timeline as well because a few bits seemed to contradict some of (dare I say it) the better writers of the series.
Part of me felt what was the point in Ravens Flight because he says it all again but slightly diffrently I think my biggest problem is I liked Ravens Flight a bit to much.
I do feel the Horus Heresy should just be left to a few writers and we just wait a bit longer for the books the continuity sometimes seems to suffer and if you can't remember what you've written then forget about it (I'm just being a B***h now sorry Mr Thorpe you are a better writer than me). Damn I really liked Ravens Flight.

[Scribe of Khorne]

Nah, I agree and I believe mentioned it elsewhere. Corax (and the rest of the marines in the story really) are just not given the same weight/respect/awe as we see in other books. Some may like to cry fan bias or favoritism or whatever, and almost all authors have their critics (other then ABD hallowed as he is) but the portrayal of the characters in this book certainly seem to have generated a bit more negativity or dislike and leave a bit to be desired.

Ive seen it said thats just the style he writes with, and its a bit polarizing, so /shrug and on to the next book, bring on Betrayer! :]

As for the Rememberancers getting mad? Other then the above examples dont forget how Ahrimans apprentice acted upon meeting Magnus as well. Mortals should be wary of Astartes, forget about them acting in anything but awe when they meet or are commanded by a Primarch.

[Xisor]

O'course, the meeting with Dorn & the chappie in The Last Remembrancer was brimming with awe and wonderment and the general numinous.

The Remembrancers in DL aren't being spoken to by a rousing Horus, an enigmatic Magnus, a menacing Russ or an evangelical Lorgar. They're being coldly addressed by a resigned and beaten Corax. A Corax who, even at his best, is shrewd, quiet and content to let others speak. A Corax whose definitive trait is his ability to disappear.

And the Remembrancers speak as if he's left the room?


Yep, Gav bungled that by making a Primarch interact distinctly in a fairly odd, perhaps even unique situation.

[Scribe of Khorne]

O'course, the meeting with Dorn & the chappie in The Last Remembrancer was brimming with awe and wonderment and the general numinous.

I loved that story so much. I give that guy a pass in his behavior around Dorn because hes seen a lot of terrible things by all accounts I would assume he is pretty much about as jaded as one can be. :]

As far as the interaction with Corax, I guess its the way he's portrayed throughout. Even his Marines dont hold him in the same light or treat him the same, and I just found it jarring when one considers the interactions seen in the other books between almost anyone and a Primarch? Granted it could easily be my own bias on how I like to see them portrayed...

[Xisor]

I loved that story so much. I give that guy a pass in his behavior around Dorn because hes seen a lot of terrible things by all accounts I would assume he is pretty much about as jaded as one can be. :]

Yeah, that's fair. French did pull a lovely one with that story.

As far as the interaction with Corax, I guess its the way he's portrayed throughout. Even his Marines dont hold him in the same light or treat him the same, and I just found it jarring when one considers the interactions seen in the other books between almost anyone and a Primarch? Granted it could easily be my own bias on how I like to see them portrayed...

Perhaps, perhaps not. Despite singing DL's praises heartily, I really didn't enjoy the Horus/Abaddon/Alpharius/Erebus scenes. (Much like I didn't enjoy Gav's Ghazkhull & Nazdreg in Purging of Kadillus, but thoroughly enjoyed pretty much the entire book otherwise.)

I'd give room to vary with Corax here mainly because Corax is noted as being much more shrewd, much more...absent. He and Alpharius have a fair bit in common in that regard, without the psychopathy and rule-of-fear espoused by Night Haunter. In that regard, it's really no surprise to me that Alpharius and Corax (and, in my hopes, Vulkan) are slightly exempt from the 'supreme power' of the Primarchs by simple presence alone - mainly because those two (three) have a vested, on-going interest in...not being larger than life in the same way as Horus, Lorgar, Fulgrim and co.

That said, I would think that's a neat idea because I thought it. If only I could apply objectiveness and sanity in me own noggin'!