Deliverance Lost [Spoilers]

[Londinium]

I said it in the other thread and I'll say it here. I hate the fact that it's been retconned from Corax tampering with the gene seed and messing up and making the mutants. I hate the fact that it's the Alpha Legion that were responsible for the mutants instead of Corax itself; and I hate the fact that the Emperor just gives Corax this information instead of using it to expand the legions closest to Terra to fight the whole I don't know...seven year galatic civil war thing. It has completely changed the Corax character and his shady dealings during the Heresy, which are entirely non shady now and the fact the mutants are the AL's fault also undermines Corax killing the Weregeld for me as I personally know he's not responsible for them. Also giving the the primarch template/gene seed deux ex machina solely to Corax makes little to no sense.

However the other spoilers sound rather interesting. I like the idea of Corax ripping the head off someone who beat a young girl in front of him, that combined with his leading a guerrilla war and leaving Deliverance as it was suggests Corax is up there with Vulkan in terms of being in touch with the 'common people.'

[SunTzu]

Yeah, the question of why every loyalist chapter wasn't given the same info as Corax is simply ignored. Under the old explanation, Corax messed with forces beyond his understanding, got it wrong and paid the price. Under the new explanation, Corax is given the Emperor's blessing to explore what can be done with genedata, gets it right (new Marines take 80 hours to grow instead of a decade, and then they're better than existing Marines as well - "keep up old man!") but doesn't think to share his discoveries with, for example, Dorn (who could have turned the entire population of Terra into Space Marines in seven years - now that would have given Horus a shock!) and, after the gene data gets corrupted, doesn't realise what's happened; which makes him look a bit stupid as the gene data now contains daemonic essense of Chaos which is explicitly said to be something the AL knew Corax would spot eventually.

One reason I didn't think much to DL.

[Deus Mechanicus]

Oh Gav, you did it again.

[Wyrmwood]

I said it in the other thread and I'll say it here. I hate the fact that it's been retconned from Corax tampering with the gene seed and messing up and making the mutants. I hate the fact that it's the Alpha Legion that were responsible for the mutants instead of Corax itself; and I hate the fact that the Emperor just gives Corax this information instead of using it to expand the legions closest to Terra to fight the whole I don't know...seven year galatic civil war thing. It has completely changed the Corax character and his shady dealings during the Heresy, which are entirely non shady now and the fact the mutants are the AL's fault also undermines Corax killing the Weregeld for me as I personally know he's not responsible for them. Also giving the the primarch template/gene seed deux ex machina solely to Corax makes little to no sense.

However the other spoilers sound rather interesting. I like the idea of Corax ripping the head off someone who beat a young girl in front of him, that combined with his leading a guerrilla war and leaving Deliverance as it was suggests Corax is up there with Vulkan in terms of being in touch with the 'common people.'

Yeah, the question of why every loyalist chapter wasn't given the same info as Corax is simply ignored. Under the old explanation, Corax messed with forces beyond his understanding, got it wrong and paid the price. Under the new explanation, Corax is given the Emperor's blessing to explore what can be done with genedata, gets it right (new Marines take 80 hours to grow instead of a decade, and then they're better than existing Marines as well - "keep up old man!") but doesn't think to share his discoveries with, for example, Dorn (who could have turned the entire population of Terra into Space Marines in seven years - now that would have given Horus a shock!) and, after the gene data gets corrupted, doesn't realise what's happened; which makes him look a bit stupid as the gene data now contains daemonic essense of Chaos which is explicitly said to be something the AL knew Corax would spot eventually.

One reason I didn't think much to DL.

On reading those spoilers, the above didn't actually occur to me - or rather it did, but it's possible we'll see the consequences of his deal with the Emperor and Alpha Legion interference in future novels. I mean, Corax's 'deal' has been altered so why should the consequences be the same?

[Noserenda]

Yeah, the question of why every loyalist chapter wasn't given the same info as Corax is simply ignored. Under the old explanation, Corax messed with forces beyond his understanding, got it wrong and paid the price. Under the new explanation, Corax is given the Emperor's blessing to explore what can be done with genedata, gets it right (new Marines take 80 hours to grow instead of a decade, and then they're better than existing Marines as well - "keep up old man!") but doesn't think to share his discoveries with, for example, Dorn (who could have turned the entire population of Terra into Space Marines in seven years - now that would have given Horus a shock!) and, after the gene data gets corrupted, doesn't realise what's happened; which makes him look a bit stupid as the gene data now contains daemonic essense of Chaos which is explicitly said to be something the AL knew Corax would spot eventually.

One reason I didn't think much to DL.

Its fairly clearly laid out in the book...

1. The Emperor has no time for anyone, even the Primarchs or Malcador
2. Corax comes back to earth kicking up a fuss and demanding to see him so the Emperor grants a super quick psychic audience and memory implant before going back to the war in the webway.
3. Corax, armed with these censored half memories kinda knows where the super secret deathtrap vault is and proceeds there to get the material.
4. Corax heads back to Deliverance (much to Dorns displeasure) to rebuild the Ravens and run a behind the lines war on Horus to slow his approach to Terra.
5. He creates (after a while!) the first gen Raptors and then proceeds to get on with making as many as he possibly can. All the while access is limited to the facility and noone talks about the project, its ready to be destroyed in an instant to stop Horus getting it!
6. The Alpha Legion sneak the Warp Tainted virus into the Gene Material, mostly due to Ravens having no reason to doubt their "battle brothers"
7. The "Second Wave" of Ravens turn into freaky monsters, Corax blames himself/his team as he thinks its due to mass producing Raptors that the errors occur rather than sabotage.
8. The Mutants get locked up and work is begun on curing their condition, obviously Raptor "production" ceases.
9. In an Alpha Legion attack/widescale Rebellion the Alphas break in, kill or nearly kill the chief apothecary and wreak the labs (And nearly all the Raven geneseed) they are only stopped by the mutants.
10. Corax is prepared to risk everything to keep the Raptor project running but is talked down by Brann who threatens everyone with Cyclonic torpedos (Booya!). Corax realises he went a bit mad, decides to scale back his grand schemes.
11. Omegon makes off with the Gene sample, all other Alphas get nailed.
12. Corax moves on with his behind the lines war with his much smaller force using hit and fade tactics.

Its entirely possible they would have shared the data/techniques if it wasnt for the Alphas interference. As it was Corax wrote the project off as untenable for mass production (As I suspect the Alphas will too). This data isnt exactly the kind of thing you casually pass around, one security slipup and both sides have it (And you have an even crazier mess).

Add to that the repeatedly reinforced message that both Communications and Travel are extremely hazardous even before you factor in an unknowable number of traitors its obvious why this wasnt quickly shared really.

The Corax ending still works, as far as he is concerned he fecked up as he never discovers the sabotage afaik. Yes its less shades of grey but that undertone is still there in Corax's obsession. Its even more tragic though, as he blames himself for a mistake he never made.

I dont recall it being mentioned as a sure thing that Corax would notice the Virus, in fact the warp vector was used precisely so he wouldnt. Its easy to spot if you know about it, hard if you dont!

In any case he never got the time to stare intently at thousands of lines of genetic code, he was kinda busy...

Ultimately though, people shouldnt pre judge from some of the statements on here, read it for yourself...

[Wyrmwood]

Yeah. Is it known when the Black Library will start selling copies of Deliverance Lost? I know that the official release date isn't set till January, but the Black Library always send out their pre-orders before that.

[SunTzu]

2. Corax comes back to earth kicking up a fuss and demanding to see him so the Emperor grants a super quick psychic audience and memory implant before going back to the war in the webway.
3. Corax, armed with these censored half memories kinda knows where the super secret deathtrap vault is and proceeds there to get the material.

Yup, and at this point he could have shared what he'd learned with Dorn and Malcador. Even incomplete it would be valuable, they could have set someone to work on it even if they did whatever they were doing. Corax didn't offer it to them. The thought of creating a billion Imperial Fists to defend Terra and the Emperor must presumably have faded into insignificance in his mind compared to restoring his own legion, either that or he didn't think of it for some reason.

5. He creates (after a while!) the first gen Raptors and then proceeds to get on with making as many as he possibly can.

Yes, and one wonders why the Emperor didn't make "Raptors"-equivalent in the first place. It's explicitly stated that he strayed away from having to sppend time hand-crafting Primarchs, in order to mass-produce Astartes. Corax ("after a while!") learns of a way to create Astarts over three hundred times more quickly than usual. Presumably the Emperor didn't actually want to mass-produce Astartes, or he would have done the same thing... he wanted to sort-of mass-produce Astartes without really mass producing them, until such time as The Plot(TM) requires that Corax needs to fast forward things.

7. The "Second Wave" of Ravens turn into freaky monsters, Corax blames himself/his team as he thinks its due to mass producing Raptors that the errors occur rather than sabotage.

Indeed, he thinks that; but he's wrong. So his tragedy isn't any longer that he tried something he should never have tried, and failed. He's now just a dupe, and one too selfish to share the successes he did have (way back at step 3, and on countless possible occasions since). It's a realistic thing to happen, certainly - I don't doubt that, not for one second! Things could have happened as it is portrayed in Deliverance Lost. (I suppose we have no choice but to accept that it did happen that way; fair enough). It's just dramatically vastly less powerful and makes rather less sense than the earlier version, IMO.

In any case he never got the time to stare intently at thousands of lines of genetic code, he was kinda busy...

One wonders why; a very short time earlier, it was important enough for him to spend a long period of time travelling to Terra and hanging out on Deliverance for long enough to do it. A setback occurs (admittedly major) that he swears on oath he will fix, but now he has an urgent rush to go and do other things? And how long would it really take? Compare the gene sequences in one of the non-mutated Raptors to one of the mutated Raptors. The difference is whatever caused the problem. Hey presto.

Ultimately though, people shouldnt pre judge from some of the statements on here, read it for yourself...

Of course; this is indeed completely true. Others may not have the same problems with the book as I did; I certainly would not wish to dissuade anyone from reading it.

[Noserenda]

Yup, and at this point he could have shared what he'd learned with Dorn and Malcador. Even incomplete it would be valuable, they could have set someone to work on it even if they did whatever they were doing. Corax didn't offer it to them. The thought of creating a billion Imperial Fists to defend Terra and the Emperor must presumably have faded into insignificance in his mind compared to restoring his own legion, either that or he didn't think of it for some reason.

I dont think its that simple, he has some genetic samples and a selection of half memories to sift through. he cant share those memories and they are far and away the key to solving the whole issue, without them Sixx and the Genetor would have taken months/years to fix the problems they encountered. Perhaps this was the case and the project was never finished before the siege of Terra, by far the more likely result.

Yes, and one wonders why the Emperor didn't make "Raptors"-equivalent in the first place. It's explicitly stated that he strayed away from having to sppend time hand-crafting Primarchs, in order to mass-produce Astartes. Corax ("after a while!") learns of a way to create Astarts over three hundred times more quickly than usual. Presumably the Emperor didn't actually want to mass-produce Astartes, or he would have done the same thing... he wanted to sort-of mass-produce Astartes without really mass producing them, until such time as The Plot(TM) requires that Corax needs to fast forward things.

We honestly dont know the Emperors design brief for the Astartes, but that rate of recruitment is something id certainly not build into my pet super soldiers! Imagine the heresy if he had, Billions of Astartes at war would utterly destroy the human race and undo all of the Emperors works. Thats before considering the hints that the Astartes were not intended to be a permanent addition to the Imperium (Much as the Thunder Warriors).

Corax's loyalty is pretty much guaranteed at this point and even with the extra recruits he wont be an immediate threat to the combined traitor legions, indeed I imagine had his planned campaign gone off Horus would have needed to redirect the full might of his forces to Deliverance to destroy him, probably taking the data with him to the grave, removing that potential threat post war (Corax would have been insanely powerful, ala Guiliman x1000) and taken a large number of Traitor Astartes down too on top of delaying Horus' campaign considerably.

Win Win really...

Indeed, he thinks that; but he's wrong. So his tragedy isn't any longer that he tried something he should never have tried, and failed. He's now just a dupe, and one too selfish to share the successes he did have (way back at step 3, and on countless possible occasions since). It's a realistic thing to happen, certainly - I don't doubt that, not for one second! Things could have happened as it is portrayed in Deliverance Lost. (I suppose we have no choice but to accept that it did happen that way; fair enough). It's just dramatically vastly less powerful and makes rather less sense than the earlier version, IMO.

No, now is tragic because nothing has changed for Corax but the tragedy he blames himself for isnt actually his fault. That makes the end result all the more tragic for the character because of that fact. Both setups are fairly equally realistic and probable but this one has more interaction with other factions which ties the Raven Guard back into the Heresy arc better. Prior to this they basically got smashed at Istvaan and then sulked off on their own plotline up until the Scouring really.

This way they have ties to the Imperial Fists (And the Imperium in general), the Alpha Legion and the campaign against the traitors is better fleshed out and you can see the seed of Fabius Biles 10,000 year experimentation spree.

One wonders why; a very short time earlier, it was important enough for him to spend a long period of time travelling to Terra and hanging out on Deliverance for long enough to do it. A setback occurs (admittedly major) that he swears on oath he will fix, but now he has an urgent rush to go and do other things? And how long would it really take? Compare the gene sequences in one of the non-mutated Raptors to one of the mutated Raptors. The difference is whatever caused the problem. Hey presto.

I doubt its that simple, the source code itself was damaged and they are looking in the wrong place for the solution. They think its because or replication errors due to mass production when really its the source that has been altered, thats time wasted straight off the bat. I also doubt the Genetics themselves are as simple as just comparing two samples, this is pervasive changes and checking out the genes would surely be the obvious first step?

On the timing, Corax has been planning this strike from the off, he goes to earth for essential men, updates and equipment before returning an immediately beginning preparation for his Campaign, that timetable was altered slightly but he essentially wasnt prepared to abandon the dates, only the manpower requirements. Thats there in black and white

Of course; this is indeed completely true. Others may not have the same problems with the book as I did; I certainly would not wish to dissuade anyone from reading it.

Forums do tend to fixate on little things though and put out a very negative vibe though, thats always worth bearing in mind!

[Londinium]

No, now is tragic because nothing has changed for Corax but the tragedy he blames himself for isnt actually his fault. That makes the end result all the more tragic for the character because of that fact. Both setups are fairly equally realistic and probable but this one has more interaction with other factions which ties the Raven Guard back into the Heresy arc better. Prior to this they basically got smashed at Istvaan and then sulked off on their own plotline up until the Scouring really.

It is still tragic but it loses a certain degree of effect because in the previous version Corax was tampering with things far beyond his knowledge and doing something that the Emperor probably would have been very against if he knew about it. It was the classic story about beginning something very morally gray with all the best intentions in the world and then everything falling apart around you because you did some very stupid stuff in desperation, despite it being for the right reason.

The new continuity introduced by Deliverance Lost lacks some of this character building, Corax was never so desperate and emotionally shattered by Istvaan that he launched into things he should never have meddled with. Instead he's quite level headed (not in actions but in thought process), discusses things with the Big E and embarks upon a much different path even if it still ends up in the same place.

[Atlas_garon]

Im usually not a fan of spoilers but its making me want to read the book more. just wanted to add I've noticed some fans get mad when all the mystery is dispelled in the HH books but thats the nature of the best the books are suppose to tell you what happened regardless of the players involved knowing the truth. (like battle of fang, wolves think they won a great victory with no clue what they really lost) so if you do not want the mystery gone do not read and just enjoy the codex fluff hints and rumors. I for one Love having the actual information and have grow to appreciate the characters more to see their flaws in spite of superior genetics they can be just as clueless as everyone else.

a quick question anymore with the big E about his "lost legions" (exterminated from what magnus says to logar) and why his general lack of info to his primarchs about chaos as much as i cant wait for the battle for terra book when it finally comes out I equally want to know why the big E takes the do not ask im not gonna tell you policy until his realm goes to *****.

[Vassakov]

Just reading DL now (got to love being at WHW when they have prereleases...)

One thing to add... do we now know what the Terminus Decree (See Codex: Grey Knights) is? During the memory implant between the Emperor and Corax the Emperor refers to the fact that all the work of the Astartes can be undone at a stroke... I'm thinking genetic failsafe that can be activated through the Warp/Advanced Phlebotium to destroy the Astartes in case they... well, do what Horus was doing.

[bound for glory]

space marines eating brains. that does'nt sound goofy at all...

[SomeRandomEvilGuy]

space marines eating brains. that does'nt sound goofy at all...

That's been around for quite a while. Also, how does it sound goofy?

[Jim]

space marines eating brains. that does'nt sound goofy at all...

This particular space marine trait/ability has been around for donkey's years and is actually put to good use in the Ian Watson novel 'Space Marine' when some Marine scouts infiltrate a Titan...

Some other aspects of that novel don't quite marry up with 2011 GW Marine behaviour though ...

Jim

[SunTzu]

Some other aspects of that novel don't quite marry up with 2011 GW Marine behaviour though ...

Yeah, I read it again recently for the first time in a couple of decades and was shocked by how much the setting has changed since then.

It's still a cracking read and it still contains the acorns of the oak tree that 40K has become, but you would barely recognise one from the other. Ian Watson though - all the stuff he was writing (in that book, and the Jaq Draco trilogy) was so iconic - space marines, titans, eldar, harlequins, the inquisition, the webway, genestealers, tyranids and the hive fleet, dreadnoughts, astropaths, navigators, chaos, assassins, polymorphine, the Eye of Terror, the Black Library... so much of it was given flesh by him even though he didn't invent it, looking back it's amazing to see the influence his work had, on my own imagination even if not on the "official" fluff. (A few things didn't make it of course, squats and zoats being the obvious examples).

Of course, this made the recent effort to copy Watson's Space Marine novel (Sons of Dorn, by Chris Roberson IIRC) even more of an embarrassment than it was in its own right. As well as being hideously poorly written, it shamelessly copied an iconic story but made almost every single facet of it worse. An update could be made to work (to better fit modern 40K and perhaps make the writing more accessible) but Sons of Dorn was just appalling.

[MarcusAurelius]

Sounds nice
I just hope the alpha legion doesn't run circles around the raven guard, because if there's one legion that should give the alpha legion trouble, it should be the equally stealthy (albeit in a different way) raven guard

[Kiro]

-He also tells Corax about the incident with Magnus and the breach on Terra-

Can anyone expand on this for me? Does the Emperor make any comments about how Magnus was right/wrong?

[Xisor]

Kiro: not really. It's handled in a far superior way to The Outcast Dead though, for my tastes. There's not much hard information given on it, IIRC, but it's dealt with...tastefully. Magnus has done something serious, hence Russ is gone and has been for some time. There's much more of a...literary feel. Allusion and presentation of ideas in a slightly tangential way, not trampling across them or rebuilding them in some other odd image. (Well, except for the nature of what happens to the Raven Guard, of course, but even that's handled in a neat way.)

Severe spoiler:

The manner in which the Alpha Legion introduce the 'daemon blood'-derived virus (and even the discussion behind it) to the Raven Guard, and the effect it has, is really pretty impressive, when considered. It reflects, albeit without being hammered home, leaving much open to interpretation, the idea that the Emperor did such a thing in the first place to 'activate' the Legions' oddities, that there's an inherent key-like bit to the Primarch genetics which allows that sort of thing to exist...e.g. the Emperor used such a thing to properly tailor/predestine the Space Wolves to Fenris...but without actually himself knowing. He knew it'd have an effect, a near-stable effect, perhaps therefore attuning the the primarchs to certain warp currents/winds...but he didn't necessarily know the ins/outs or eventual results. An experiment, if you will, rather than a fully designed structure. It's nice that: the idea of someone experimenting with conquering the galaxy...)

Anyway, finished it this afternoon. Adored it. Some complaints, as usual (some of them even reasonably critical), but largely the good points of the book...it's everything we've been waiting for: a properly 'holistic' HH novel that grabs and nods to everything without it all merely being a long line of cameos or in-jokes or some sort of Ocean's Eleven/Dirty Dozen fiasco.

The world, the universe felt real. It felt big, it felt nameless and obscure yet well connected, 'properly placed'...not cramped and flimsy. The Outcast Dead felt cramped and flimsy.

[MarcusAurelius]

It sounds like this new version of Corax's tragedy is a bit too complicated for my taste. The old version was simpler and in my opinion, more powerful. In this new version, Corax just comes off as a selfish dupe. I feel the new version requires too much explanation to make sense. For instance, the Emperor had the ability to mass-produce Raptors. OK...why did he not do that during the Great Crusade? Billions of marines would have been too many? OK...but why did he choose 2 million (20 legions, each with 100,000 marines on average)? He was trying to reconquer the galaxy...why not 4 million, 6 million marines, etc.? Why did Corax not share information with Dorn or Malcador? Surely, it would have boosted the defenses of Terra tremendously.

Finally, (this is more of a personl grip than anything else), Corax, one of the most intelligent beings in the galaxy, never figures out the source of the mutation. He never compares the genetic sequences of the non-mutated Raptors and the mutated Raptors to look for discrepancies? That just comes off as rather dense. Aren't the RG supposed to be one of the more cerebral legions and isn't Corax supposed to be a very quick and sharp thinker?

[Noserenda]

Xisor: Hmmm Interesting thought...

It sounds like this new version of Corax's tragedy is a bit too complicated for my taste. The old version was simpler and in my opinion, more powerful. In this new version, Corax just comes off as a selfish dupe. I feel the new version requires too much explanation to make sense. For instance, the Emperor had the ability to mass-produce Raptors. OK...why did he not do that during the Great Crusade? Billions of marines would have been too many? OK...but why did he choose 2 million (20 legions, each with 100,000 marines on average)? He was trying to reconquer the galaxy...why not 4 million, 6 million marines, etc.? Why did Corax not share information with Dorn or Malcador? Surely, it would have boosted the defenses of Terra tremendously.

Its obvious really, he didnt really limit the Legions starting numbers (Uplifting anyone the Primarchs wanted along etc) but he limited their ability to "Procreate" thus stopping any potential renegades creating an infinite army of traitors.

Handing out the genetic code to anyone effectively gives them pretty limitless power (On the ground ofc, they still need ships!) Corax had not only demonstrated pretty total loyalty at this point but he also went and Asked/Demanded it from the Emperor whilst everyone else was happy to sit back and crack on with things. The Emperor is faaaaaar too busy to do anything

but hold the webway together at this point.

The Emperor is wary of his sons, rightfully so it turns out!

Finally, (this is more of a personl grip than anything else), Corax, one of the most intelligent beings in the galaxy, never figures out the source of the mutation. He never compares the genetic sequences of the non-mutated Raptors and the mutated Raptors to look for discrepancies? That just comes off as rather dense. Aren't the RG supposed to be one of the more cerebral legions and isn't Corax supposed to be a very quick and sharp thinker?

Since when was intelligence been more relevant than knowledge? Corax demonstrates some amazing feats in the book but he isnt a geneticist, hes also got rather a lot on his plate at the time...

Put it this way, take a Super Genius Caveman and show him a DNA Spiral or a computer hard drive (or anything you couldnt just reason out) and hed have no idea what to make of it. Its much the same here except Corax has a patchy mind meld to work with.