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Thread: What Tactical Marines OUGHT to be

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    What Tactical Marines OUGHT to be

    So I've been thinking lately... Tactical Marines from Codex: Space Marines a pretty cruddy unit in the current game, and are vastly outclasses by the troops in most of the other, newer armies. Indeed, Tacticals are outclasses by the troops in a lot of older armies too. I think there ought to be specialties with each Marine book, to make things interesting. Space Wolves have adaptable, in-your-face Tactical equivalents, and honestly I think they're a lot of fun to play (Hunters are underpriced, but they feel like I think they ought to). Blood Angles have Assault Marine troops, and that's fun and characterful too.

    Here's my thoughts for what a Tactical Marine should be, in order to make them both useful and unique:
    -Drop them back down to 15 points per model, which means the initial 5 marines cost 5 points less and each extra marine is one point less.
    -The squad gains the Relentless special rule.

    This makes Tacticals a) not so reliant on transports, which is good for the meta and b) gives them an actually useful special rule that sets them apart from the obvious advantages of the other marine books. I think a 10-man Tactical Squad, combatted with the Sarg and Melta in a Rhino and the Relentless Missile trooper advancing from the back would actually be a pretty decent unit, and people may take them to do more than fill the requirement.

    What does Warseer think Tactical Marines should be, assuming the rest of the Codexes stay the same?

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    Chaplain Tamwulf's Avatar
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    Re: What Tactical Marines OUGHT to be

    I think they are exactly where they need to be- a generalized unit that is good at shooting, good at close combat, and good at taking objectives. Other units are made to be great in other areas, but you will not find a unit as good as, or as well supported as a "regular" Tactical Space Marine.

    The proposed change moves them from a troop choice to an elites choice at the very least. The Tactical Space Marine from Codex: Space Marines is the best all around unit troop choice in the game.
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    Re: What Tactical Marines OUGHT to be

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamwulf View Post
    The Tactical Space Marine from Codex: Space Marines is the best all around unit troop choice in the game.
    This is really a load of crap though. Tacticals ought to be good all-around units, but the fact of the matter is that Grey Hunters do everything that Tacticals can do, but they also do some things better and they're cheaper to boot. Hell, Chaos Marines are better and cheaper than Tacticals - they have extra attacks and can take 2 melta guns. The only reason to take Tacticals is because you have to.

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    Chapter Master big squig's Avatar
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    Re: What Tactical Marines OUGHT to be

    It's not that tac marines aren't good enough, it's that codex creep has hurt them.

    Maybe if guard couldn't order their way to have better speed and Ld, or if grey hunters or grey knights weren't just better, or if dark eldar warriors couldn't magically get FNP for no reason...

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    Re: What Tactical Marines OUGHT to be

    Quote Originally Posted by big squig View Post
    It's not that tac marines aren't good enough, it's that codex creep has hurt them.

    Maybe if guard couldn't order their way to have better speed and Ld, or if grey hunters or grey knights weren't just better, or if dark eldar warriors couldn't magically get FNP for no reason...
    I don't disagree necessarily. What do you suggest to creep Tacticals back into usefulness though? The Codex Creep Clock won't be unwound.

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    Chapter Master ehlijen's Avatar
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    Re: What Tactical Marines OUGHT to be

    Tactical squads are not useless. Their strengths just don't fit into your playstyle.

    They are not meant to spam meltaguns and charge forward blindly, like grey hunters do. But unlike grey hunters, they get better ld, longer ranged weapons and combat squads. They have flexibility enough, and yes, that means they lack all out power in any one area. It's exactly what they're meant to be.
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    Re: What Tactical Marines OUGHT to be

    Tacticals suck. Their shooting is weak, their close combat ability is even weaker.
    A single missile shot for something like 200 points not including a mandatory rhino or razorback?
    Shooty armies gun them down, close combat armies slaughter them in hth.
    Marines are better off with taking scouts and spending points on stuff that actually works.
    Which is a shame, cause tacticals should be the core of the army, not something that weighs it down.

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    Re: What Tactical Marines OUGHT to be

    I Believe that they should have a bolt pistol, CCW, and Bolter standard. Like the Chaos Marines. that way they get that +1A, this would dramatically change how they played in my local games.

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    Re: What Tactical Marines OUGHT to be

    Tactical squads are mediocre at hand to hand, underwhelming in the shooting phase, and not especially cheap.

    The main things they bring to the table are good morale rules, and respectable resiliency as well as good transport options. Of course, these are things that all marines have, so if they weren't compulsory, they wouldn't be seen much.

    I use Beliel simply to avoid taking multiple tactical squads (granted, DA tacticals are slightly worse than normal). Obviously, opinions my vary, but I think the following troop choices are better:

    Chaos Space Marines (better hth, multiple assault weapons)
    Orks (decent assault gun, foot hth, good morale, cheap)
    Necrons (ability to suppress tanks, resilient, big squads)
    Grey Hunter (simply better tacticals)
    Rangers (efficient objective holders, good range)
    Blood Angel Assault Marine (fast, access to FnP, preferred enemy, multiple assault weapons

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    Chapter Master big squig's Avatar
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    Re: What Tactical Marines OUGHT to be

    Quote Originally Posted by Stinkfoot View Post
    I don't disagree necessarily. What do you suggest to creep Tacticals back into usefulness though? The Codex Creep Clock won't be unwound.
    Sadly, my only opinion is to unwind the codex creep. We need a codex un-creep.

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    Re: What Tactical Marines OUGHT to be

    If it were up to me?

    I'd probably drop the heavy weapon.

    Contrary to popular belief, tacticals aren't built to do 'any' job - they're built to anchor the SM battleline with strong short-ranged firepower and enough T4 power armoured bodies to make them really hard to clear out. They've also got decent melee and mid-ranged firepower to round them out - all marine units gets rounded out like that, it's kinda their thing.

    Heavy weapons, on the other hand, are built for long-range fire support. They work great on devastators, who are actually supposed to give long-range fire support, but giving them to tacticals is of precious little help when it comes to what said tacticals are actually supposed to do, and is simply not enough to make them work in the long-range support role that heavy weapons are meant to fill.

    In short: The space puppies got it right; tacticals should have access to special weapons, NOT heavy ones, as heavy weapons do not fit their role.
    Last edited by theJ; 10-11-2011 at 06:39.
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    Re: What Tactical Marines OUGHT to be

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold Zoid View Post
    Tacticals suck. Their shooting is weak, their close combat ability is even weaker.
    A single missile shot for something like 200 points not including a mandatory rhino or razorback?
    Shooty armies gun them down, close combat armies slaughter them in hth.
    Marines are better off with taking scouts and spending points on stuff that actually works.
    Which is a shame, cause tacticals should be the core of the army, not something that weighs it down.
    You do realise they've got weapons other than that missile, too, right?

    That's pretty much the point I was trying to make - to make that single missile work, you (usually) have to ignore the rest of the weapons in the squad (1 special weapon, 7 bolters, 1 pistol of choice). It's rarely worth using, so why do we get a free heavy weapon when we could've had an extra special weapon instead?
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    Re: What Tactical Marines OUGHT to be

    Presumably its because they're designed to work with the combat squad and transport rules in mind.

    Take a full squad, split them in two - heavy weapon in one (fire support team), special weapon + sergeant in the other (offensive), then put one or other squad in a Razorback for added firepower.

    Or split the squad (with the sergeant in the fire support team), put both halves in a Rhino, take an objective, place the fire support unit there to hold it, then use the other half of the squad in an aggressive defense role.
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    Re: What Tactical Marines OUGHT to be

    Quote Originally Posted by Commotionpotion View Post
    Or split the squad (with the sergeant in the fire support team), put both halves in a Rhino, take an objective, place the fire support unit there to hold it, then use the other half of the squad in an aggressive defense role.
    can you put both halves of a combat sqauded tac squad in a rhino? i thought you weren't able to do that and the only way you can choose to combat squad after deployment is if you drop pod in.
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    Re: What Tactical Marines OUGHT to be

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    can you put both halves of a combat sqauded tac squad in a rhino? i thought you weren't able to do that and the only way you can choose to combat squad after deployment is if you drop pod in.
    Correct.
    The two combat squads count as separate squads for any and all purposes, and a rhino can never hold more than one squad.
    The Drop Pod is an exception as the tactical squad is not split up into combat squads until after it has been deployed, at which point it is no longer in the drop pod.
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    Re: What Tactical Marines OUGHT to be

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliarzathanil View Post
    Tactical squads are mediocre at hand to hand, underwhelming in the shooting phase, and not especially cheap.
    And the truly sad part is, that they still excell both at shooting and in melee (and also in resilience, which is arguabley the most important feature of troops right now) when they come up against Eldar troops.

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    Re: What Tactical Marines OUGHT to be

    Quote Originally Posted by big squig View Post
    It's not that tac marines aren't good enough, it's that codex creep has hurt them.
    Compared to Rogue Trader and 2nd Edition actually the opposite is the case. They became faster, others became less durable and others got shorter ranges.
    Last edited by Hendarion; 10-11-2011 at 09:16.

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    Re: What Tactical Marines OUGHT to be

    Quote Originally Posted by theJ View Post
    In short: The space puppies got it right; tacticals should have access to special weapons, NOT heavy ones, as heavy weapons do not fit their role.
    I agree. Back when I still played Space Marines, I always wanted to swap the Heavy Weapon for a second Special Weapon in my Tac units and couldn't.

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    Re: What Tactical Marines OUGHT to be

    Tacticals ever since had heavy weapons. This is the Codex Astartes and that is how they ought to be, because GW designed them that way.

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    Re: What Tactical Marines OUGHT to be

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendarion View Post
    Tacticals ever since had heavy weapons. This is the Codex Astartes and that is how they ought to be, because GW designed them that way.
    I agree the basic tactical squad is a pretty iconic part of 40k to me, so i doubt very much that GW will want to change the basic set up of Sarge, Heavy, Special, 7 bolters. The problem they have got is that they just don't work as well as specialised units, to me the game does not suit jack of all trades types.

    Unfortunately I don't know what could be done to fix them, you don't want to make them too cheap, perhaps some kind of special rule, or even making the bolter better could help.

    Hopefully GW will come up with something. I want to use vanilla marines, but at the moment it seems every way of playing marines can be done better with either BA/SW/GK. Just look at the marines tactics thread for confirmation.
    'Hold the line, sons of the Empire
    I see the same fear in you that would take the heart of me,
    but fear not for we don't auto break and can re-roll for it next turn.
    a day may come when Robin Cruddace writes a good book, but it is not this day
    a day may come when Ewar doesn't powergame, but it is not this day
    This day our dice will roll sixes
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