Black Templars rumours

[Deus Mechanicus]

Fingers crossed for Black Templar storm raven

[Shamana]

I humbly thank all my ESL teachers . Anyway, does it still look BTs will come before Tau?

[Pyriel]

i also admire the vocabulary
keep in mind, though, black templars dont have units or squad leaders except within their marshal's household-squads are made by "whoever wants to go to place X", and as such a wolf guard-like option would be unlfuffy. most predictions say, Rage will be "ameliorated" by taking a chaplain per squad, just like righteous zeal limitations are ameliorated by chaplains in the current codex. otherwise, hurray for Ld8 for rage.

and, again, kelly does "unthinkable" things with units he considers "iconic". its his way of forcing troops etc down ppl's throats; instead of making them mandatory he makes them overpowered.

i am NOT saying the rumour is true; i am saying it *could* be true.

[RandomThoughts]

and, again, kelly does "unthinkable" things with units he considers "iconic". its his way of forcing troops etc down ppl's throats; instead of making them mandatory he makes them overpowered.

Sounds good to me. If that's the case, then I just wish he had written the current Codex Eldar, because our troops suck across the range...

[Pyriel]

he has written it. he thought mechanised was the fluffy way for Eldar to play in 4th edition that nobody used vehicles(lethal damage chart; for example, on a 6 every passenger auto-died with no save or check, even some mighty command squad with 3++. on a mere 6). as a result, he created the HoloFalcon(his idea of "iconic unit"), who singlehandedly broke 4th edition(eldar, like i've said, were much more dominant than space wolves and grey knights are now combined, very close to "unbeatable". bear in mind, all units were scoring objectives in 4th, even elites/vehicles. explains lots for eldar, right? )

[Shamana]

Yeah, RT, I'm not sure what you meant. The Eldar codex IS from Phil Kelly, and before things like Space Wolves or Blood Angels it was considered quite solid.

he has written it. he thought mechanised was the fluffy way for Eldar to play in 4th edition that nobody used vehicles(lethal damage chart; for example, on a 6 every passenger auto-died with no save or check, even some mighty command squad with 3++. on a mere 6). as a result, he created the HoloFalcon(his idea of "iconic unit"), who singlehandedly broke 4th edition(eldar, like i've said, were much more dominant than space wolves and grey knights are now combined, very close to "unbeatable". bear in mind, all units were scoring objectives in 4th, even elites/vehicles. explains lots for eldar, right? )

I'm not sure those lists were quite as dominant as you say, although I didn't follow the game back then. Anyway, just what did Kelly change to make the falcon so awesome? I have an old 3e codex I dug out from somewhere, and the Falcon isn't much different there - the base costs and and the weapon pricing are a bit higher (upgrading TL catapults to a cannon was 20 points, for example, and the extra falcon weapon costed from 20 to 40 points), the pulse laser was d3 instead of 2, and that's it. It could still take stones, holo-field and whatnot (though the upgrades section is missing and I can't see just wht they did then)

Mind you, I've heard a lot of marine players in 4th were thankful to Kelly for nerfing the starcannon - supposedly vypers with starcannons were considered very, very nasty before that . I guess the old design philosophy of "nerf the best from the old codex, make something else extra awesome for more sales" has more to do with it than "iconics".

As for squad leaders for BT, well, we'll see what comes out. Considering how big chaplains are for BTs, I wouldn't be surprised if they get the option to take more - either in the elites slot like BAs or more than one per HQ like SWs or haemys for DE. Again, we'll see just how realistic that rumor turns out to be.

[Carlosophy]

he has written it. he thought mechanised was the fluffy way for Eldar to play in 4th edition that nobody used vehicles(lethal damage chart; for example, on a 6 every passenger auto-died with no save or check, even some mighty command squad with 3++. on a mere 6). as a result, he created the HoloFalcon(his idea of "iconic unit"), who singlehandedly broke 4th edition(eldar, like i've said, were much more dominant than space wolves and grey knights are now combined, very close to "unbeatable". bear in mind, all units were scoring objectives in 4th, even elites/vehicles. explains lots for eldar, right? )

The Falcon in 4E plain sucked: BS3, Crappy transport capacity and it took up space that should have been used for the prism. The Wave Serpent, with its immunity to Melta, spacious interior and lack of FoC slot was always the better option. Plus the weapons were twin-linked meaning it could actually kill things.

Holofields always made things worse. All my opponents ended up rolling 2 high numbers.

[Sqallum]

Could the EC be Sigsimund? Probably not, but it would be awesome if it was... probably wielding some amazing pre-heresy weapon
Sqallum

[RandomThoughts]

he has written it.

Yeah, RT, I'm not sure what you meant.

It's called humor, mild sarcasm, or perhaps even irony.

Not mine, though, I just felt like pointing it out.

And by the way, making one unit overpowered (or even two units) is not the same as writing a powerful codex. Whenever I hear people talk about the awesomeness of Eldar back in 4th edition, it's always flying circus this and flying circus that. Not sure the rest of the codex came even close in power level - though I have to admit I didn't play very much then (and no Eldar, yet).

Regards
RT

[PowerArmourDave]

remember: Rage USR, i.e. MUST run forwards, to closest enemy, even if the are in an objective. no wierd "up to d6, so i move o inches, remaining on the objective" like today's righteous zeal;MUST forget objectives and keep running forward. that's rage. in a troops choice.in, quite possibly, the only troops choice. so i'd say the price paid is high enough

(all this assuming the rumour from b & c is true)

Hopefully we'll keep rights of battle so army wide ld10 should mean running off objectives will be kept to a minimum, although its quite possible that with it being a switch from passing to failing there could be some form of -ld modifier depending on number of unsaved wounds suffered during the shooting phase.

I'd personally like to see righteous zeal only apply when the unit suffers wounds from an enemy unit within 12" as running off an objective like a lunatic because you suffer one wound from a railgun 72" away seems a tad idiotic. Black Templars are zealous not blood crazed berserkers, I think they'd only leave an objective if they felt they were within reasonable range to bring their righteous fury via close combat, not run off aimlessly looking for something to hack into bloody lumps.

[MadDoc]

In games workshop's site, there is an item modelled on an initiate or whatever, called "hexagramix wards" that is said, below the pic, to protect from psychic powers. weird?yup-main, official games workshop's site.

Got a link you could share? What section is this supposed to be under?

[althathir]

interesting... i shall answer this.
......
2. His codexes are, for the most part, good. he is infamous for writing Eldar (it is still semi-competitive 5+ years after release; and singlehandedly BROKE 4th edition due to its power when it came out. if you think grey knights are broken due to having a steady 54% win percentage in tourneys, got news for you... "eldar flying circus "had 70%+. many ppl overreact and say the whole 5th ed was a deliberate attempt to nerf eldar and save the environment), h is also known for Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar(both quite good codices too). i THINK he wrote orks too, and i see some of his trends there.

3. he has two problems: one, he doesnt write that good fluff-he's more of a wargamer than a fluffy player, and its reflected when he writes a codex. he is "conservative" in his fluff, doesnt add too much or change much. I'd like better fluff, i dont think Phil Kelly is the one to do it.

4. second problem, he believes in "iconic units". i.e. he sees a unit, thinks that "this unit is iconic/fluffy for army X; they should ALWAYS use it". he then takes this unit, and makes rules for it that are totaly overpowered, so everybody takes it and never bothers with other FOC options.
examples: Falcon is a transport that has 3 heavy weapons, and is Fast Skimmer to boot, and forces opponent to reroll and keep lowest on the damage chart...yeah, thats so balanced.
example #2: old space wolf players liked using Grey Hunters, and Long Fangs to babysit the new guys... it became iconic. then kelly came and made both these choices no-brainers that everyone whines about. no reason to occupy their slots with ANYTHING other in the codex, there are good choices, but grey hunters/long fangs are THAT good, and more.

2. Eldar weren't quite that strong after the 4th codex (at the time it was considered a nerf they were still a top dex), they were at their strongest right at the start of 4th when the craftworld supplement was still legal (a lot of stuff got cheaper in the current dex but that PoS just let you ignore the FoC). In 3rd holofields (which gav thorpe came up with as far as I can tell I haven't read the supplements where falcons were introduced), worked the same but the damage table was different vehicles were immbolized on a 3 and weapon destroyed on a 4, so players didn't take them cause you were better off with 4 but would have to take a 3. In 4th the damage table changed, combine that with defensive weapons being str 6, and that a skimmer that moved over 6" could only be glanced were all huge boosts. More so when you consider how damaging the vehicle charts used to be. Another advantage the 3rd edition book had was that spirit stones could flat out ignore stunned results.

So you had a 210 point tank firing d3 str 8 ap 2 shots, 3 str 6 ap 2 shots, and 3 str 6 ap 5 shots that was just a bear to bring down because you could move over 6 and fire everything. In the current game that would still be considered OP. The 4th edition dex nerfed starcannons, swooping hawks (they used to be called an exarch delivery system they were the cheap unit I used at the time which I find ironic) and wraithlords so it actually wasn't as bad. Old Eldar are kinda interesting because alot of the units sucked but some were so good it didn't matter, and kelly really kept alot of it fairly close to what it was.

I'm an eldar player and I basically had to show players my lists to get a pick up game in a new store at that point. Its funny cause I started space wolves and after I started collecting them went back online for the first time in years and saw their reputation on forums and thought I was in for more of the same but really haven't experienced it at all.

3. Honestly I like his fluff, and when you consider all the flak that ward and cruddance get for adding fluff I think his goes over well. It does blend in a little with previous fluff so people don't notice the changes he puts into it. For example in earlier eldar books it was always stressed guardians, and kelly changed it too in some craftworlds guardians are the most common warrior.

4. This is true for most writers, I'll admit his internal balance isn't very tight but they all push certain units hard, just look at most netlists. I honestly think that is one of GW core design values.

he has written it. he thought mechanised was the fluffy way for Eldar to play in 4th edition that nobody used vehicles(lethal damage chart; for example, on a 6 every passenger auto-died with no save or check, even some mighty command squad with 3++. on a mere 6). as a result, he created the HoloFalcon(his idea of "iconic unit"), who singlehandedly broke 4th edition(eldar, like i've said, were much more dominant than space wolves and grey knights are now combined, very close to "unbeatable". bear in mind, all units were scoring objectives in 4th, even elites/vehicles. explains lots for eldar, right? )

I ended up responding to this above, but he didn't make it if anything he nerfed it. Starcannons were so powerful because the penetrating chart was so rough that most people went on foot so you had a 3 shot str 6 ap 2 weapon that wasn't very pricy upgrade. If anything I think he knew defensive weapons were dropping in 6th and upped the infantry so they could compete in fifth.

Early in 4th I completely agree with you, but kelly's codex was considered a nerf whether he nerfed them enough is debatable but the peak of eldar's power was the begining of 4th (and 2nd from what I understand but that was before my time).

edit: I know im beating a dead horse here, its just I'm trying to make the point that dark era wasn't kellys fault

It's called humor, mild sarcasm, or perhaps even irony.

Not mine, though, I just felt like pointing it out.

And by the way, making one unit overpowered (or even two units) is not the same as writing a powerful codex. Whenever I hear people talk about the awesomeness of Eldar back in 4th edition, it's always flying circus this and flying circus that. Not sure the rest of the codex came even close in power level - though I have to admit I didn't play very much then (and no Eldar, yet).

Regards
RT

It was more the craftworld supplement, for example a beil-tan lists drawback was that guardian units, jetbikes, and vypers moved to the elites slot, and aspects became troops. Which at the time was insane, there was no comparing any base troops to an aspect warrior (hell that was before other armies even had a run move and fleet was amazing). The worst part was that more than half the eldar units were worthless then but it was easy to avoid them, so it was a miserable codex to use in my case because besides hawks most of the units I liked were horrible.

[Shamana]

It's called humor, mild sarcasm, or perhaps even irony.

Ok, I guess I missed it .

@ Alrathir - I think I liked the Saim-hann more, with troops and fast attack switched - you could take 2-6 FA and 0-3 troops, which could certainly make things quite interesting.

Anyway, Black Templar. Is there any chance of an opening that could see them out (if they ARE the next 40k codex) before March-April?

[althathir]

Ok, I guess I missed it .

@ Alrathir - I think I liked the Saim-hann more, with troops and fast attack switched - you could take 2-6 FA and 0-3 troops, which could certainly make things quite interesting.

Anyway, Black Templar. Is there any chance of an opening that could see them out (if they ARE the next 40k codex) before March-April?

Thats kinda the point, every craftworld was pretty insane powerwise. Ulthwe was the WAAC build though, cause of seer councils. I'm just making sure people hate eldar for the right reasons

[Fifth_miracle]

Got a link you could share? What section is this supposed to be under?

I believe he is referencing this: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/co...e=true&start=8

Its a page Detailing The Purging of Centrati's Eye from the Black Templar - Iconagraphy Article on the main site.

Hexagrammic Wards:

Sergeants and exceptional Initiates were occasionally issued Hexagrammic Wards to protect wearers from the evil Magiks used by the Eldar Witches. Often, the Wards took the form of a golden Templar cross worn on a chain around the neck coupled with a deep red robe infused with charms and woven with litanies.

Also...

Bolter Modification: Witch-Bolts

Modifications are not difficult to apply to the versatile bolter, though they are reserved for special circumstances for the most part. When faced with battle against possible Eldar Warlocks and the horrors of Dark Eldar Warp manipulation, the Templars responded in kind. Witch-bolt ammo feeds were issued to three Initiates per Crusader Squad for just such instances. The specially treated ammo is designed to disrupt deviants who rely upon the Warp for strength.

[MadDoc]

Thank you Fifth_miracle. That clears that up.

[Guyver 3]

Does anyone think bt will actually get a storm raven? its pretty obvious that the next c:sm will get one but will bt?

[MadDoc]

I personally don't think they will, but then again, I also don't think its 'obvious' that the next C:SM will include it either.

I think the other Marine books will get some form of flier, but I would hope GW is sensible enough to leave the unique Stormraven where it is (BA & GK only) and develop something different for BT/DA/SM.

[Ba'al Starslayer]

No more Space Marines will get a Storm Raven as far as I'm concerned. The Design Team said this themselves at a GD Seminar.

[MadDoc]

No more Space Marines will get a Storm Raven as far as I'm concerned. The Design Team said this themselves at a GD Seminar.

Good. Especially since it suggests that GW will be making something unique, flier-wise, for the other lists.