Info about the Marines that founded the Grey Knights

[Grunge]

We know nothing of the (11?) individuals who would eventually go on to found the Ordos and the Grey Knights.

I believe they were 12, which reminds me: 8 were Space Marines and went to Titan with Malcador, the other 4 went to form the Ordos: as there is no high level of command generic to all Ordos, I assume one formed the Ordo Xenos, the other Malleus and the other Hereticus. What about the 4th dude?

P.S. - Thanks for the extensive list, shadowhawk2008. Will gather all those. Any of them linked in a way I should read them in a particular order or its all pretty much unrelated?

[Idaan]

Hereticus was formed only after the Age of Apostasy, in M36. And I'd say Ordo Xenos wasn't really needed during the Crusade or Heresy - the nature of Xenos threat required an approach no more elaborate or subtle than just crushing them under an iron boot.

[Grunge]

I was under the impression the whole Inquisition was founded more or less at the same time. Thanks for clearing that up, the whole era after the Heresy until M41 is still a big black pit of unknown to me.

[Chem-Dog]

It sems doubtful they weren't the first 8 Grand Masters of the Grey Knights. Otherwise, the writers would have to introduce a fresh batch of unknowns to do the job, after having already invested time in setting up Garro's mission and its importance.

I'm not one of those who rolls with this theory. JUST because Garro (and the various others) are Astartes and have a suggested link to the organisation that will, in the fullness of time, be referred to as the "Holy Ordos of the Emperor's Inquisition" that they have to be some kind of founding members of one of the Inqusition linked Astartes outfits.
It could just be that Garro (and those like him) becomes a proto-Inquisitor.


The big problem for me with the idea that any of the loyal brothers from the traitor Legions become Grand Masters of the Grey Knights is their absolute lack of Psychic potential. I know it's possible for the nascent chapter to have a different makeup than it holds with in M41 but for me it doesn't feel right.

I like to imagine that the Grey Knights order has it's foundations set in the Edict of Nikaea, with the Grand Masters being drawn from those who stood in support of continuation of the Librarius programme. Less any who went bad or got killed in the interim.

[Son of Sanguinius]

+1 point to Chem-Dog.

I agree with all of the points you made in that post. I'd high five you, but my monitor isn't easily replaceable.

[shadowhawk2008]

I believe they were 12, which reminds me: 8 were Space Marines and went to Titan with Malcador, the other 4 went to form the Ordos: as there is no high level of command generic to all Ordos, I assume one formed the Ordo Xenos, the other Malleus and the other Hereticus. What about the 4th dude?

P.S. - Thanks for the extensive list, shadowhawk2008. Will gather all those. Any of them linked in a way I should read them in a particular order or its all pretty much unrelated?

The Sisters of Silence sometimes acted alongside the Legiones Astartes to neutralize alien psykers, such as in Flight of the Eisenstein. But yeah, Ordo Xenos wasn't really needed during the Great Crusade. That was the era of wiping out all xenos in the galaxy, not studying them and stealing their technologies, which is partly why Fabius Bile turned traitor among other things.

And, the only ones you'd have to read in order are the Dan Abnett novels. It would sort of go like this -- Eisenhorn omni -> Thorn and Talon -> Ravenor omni.

The others, it doesn't really matter. Although one of the Inquisitors in Warrior Brood references Warriors of Ultramar and the Deathwatch Captain Octavius in either Warrior Brood or Warrior Coven references Deathwatch Captain Bannon from Warriors of Ultramar since they are/were both Imperial Fists.

[Idaan]

The big problem for me with the idea that any of the loyal brothers from the traitor Legions become Grand Masters of the Grey Knights is their absolute lack of Psychic potential. I know it's possible for the nascent chapter to have a different makeup than it holds with in M41 but for me it doesn't feel right.

They're all psykers because all their initiates are psykers. It's a recruiting policy, not an immutable trait of their character.

[Dhurrin]

They're all psykers because all their initiates are psykers. It's a recruiting policy, not an immutable trait of their character.

My thoughts as well. While the Grey Knights as we know them now are all psykers, the original ones may not all have been psykers.

[GreyishKnight]

I dunno, the psychic aspect plays a big part in rendering them immune to corruption. Not only does it form the basis to power their aegis but you can imagine that by being part of a small psychic collective it allows each of them to be mindful of their battle-brothers thoughts too.

[MvS]

...until the "Emperor's Gift" is explored properly in the imagery, which I suspect it might be in one of ADB's upcoming books (although don't quote me on that).

[Wazzahamma]

Maybe the idea of creating a super legion of psyker marines shortly after outlawing librarians was too hypocritical even for the Imperium. Best wait a little while...

[Chem-Dog]

They're all psykers because all their initiates are psykers. It's a recruiting policy, not an immutable trait of their character.

While the Grey Knights as we know them now are all psykers, the original ones may not all have been psykers.

I know, I said as much in my post, I just feel it's a bit boring if the only pre-requisite for the role of Grand Master of the Grey Knights is proving your loyalty to the Emperor over your Primarch and not getting killed in the process of proving it. Or, perhaps more significantly, it's boring if all of the Garros and Lokens get sidelined into one very specific little group.
Especially with the Post Heresy reshaping of the Legions looming, it's not like there won't be a shortage of "Chapter Master" jobs available.

[ryng_sting]

I still think the only cop-out is not having Garro do something crucial in founding the Grey Knights. To set up his mission, background etc. and then just hand it to 'some other guy' is short-changing the reader, and for little reason other than second-guessing for its own sake. To me, that's just not aesthetically satisfying.

I should add that setting up a chapter with an unwinnable objective is unlikely to strike most as a 'happy ending'.

[Spider-pope]

I should add that setting up a chapter with an unwinnable objective is unlikely to strike most as a 'happy ending'.

You wouldn't say 8 characters surviving the entire heresy from start to finish, despite going on various incredibly dangerous missions and then being given command of their very own chapter to carry on doing the Emperors work is a happy ending for those characters?

the other 4 went to form the Ordos: as there is no high level of command generic to all Ordos, I assume one formed the Ordo Xenos, the other Malleus and the other Hereticus. What about the 4th dude?

I've not got the Grey Knight codex on hand, but does it say how long these four actually lasted?

The introduction to the Inquisitor rulebook makes it pretty clear that the founders were very quick to form into factions and start infighting. Its possible that there were to be four Ordo's, but two Masters were killed before they had a chance to firmly establish them and they've since been forgotten to history. Either that or they are going to drag up the whole Ordo Hydra thing again.

[MvS]

You wouldn't say 8 characters surviving the entire heresy from start to finish, despite going on various incredibly dangerous missions and then being given command of their very own chapter to carry on doing the Emperors work is a happy ending for those characters?

It isn't an ending though. It's the start of the decline into ignorance and barbarity for the Imperium, where all the loyalists who survive begin to see their beloved Emperor's vision corrupted and the man himself deified.

Also, people survived the Heresy where their friends and brothers did not. It's a fact. What can we say? There are plenty of named examples and none of them could be said to be 'happy' endings really. I'm guessing the Traitor Primarchs and their various Captains and Chapter Masters don't count, so how about Guilliman, or Dorn, or Vulkan, or Russ, or Corax, or El'Jonson, or Jaghatai Khan perhaps?

Or if Loyalist Primarchs don't count either, then maybe Space Marines like Bjorn, or Sigmisund, or Aquila, or Alexis Polux, or Lucretius Corvo, or indeed any of the Masters of the 'Primogenitor' Second Founding Chapters. I think it's safe to say that not a single Marine who lived through the Heresy had an easy time of it. All fought in insanely dangerous missions because those were the missions that Space Marines always were (and always are) given.

If Garro and his ilk survive the Heresy and help set up the Grey Knights, or any other Chapter or secret society for that matter, this isn't a huge leap or an example of facile story telling. Their story is their story, the only thing that matters is how well their fate is written, not necessarily what their fate is. Having them killed off could be a moving development if it's well written. Having them form the Grey Knights or whatever could also be an excellent result if it's well written.

Neither 'end' for these characters is better or worse in and of themselves. They can be good or bad depending on how well their fates are put across in future Heresy novels.

[goldenhorde]

I really wouldn't mind if the last HH book ended with a cut-away scene where it's shown that the whole series were the mad visions of a psyker under torture by an Inquisitor - so they might be factually correct or not.

[Son of Sanguinius]

Let's keep the "Dallas" moments to a minimum of 0, please.

[Spider-pope]

It isn't an ending though. It's the start of the decline into ignorance and barbarity for the Imperium.

Yes thats all well and good and true from a fluff perspective.

But i am talking about the end of a novel series, not the fluff as a whole. When the final Horus Heresy book rolls out, if we end with every single member of Garro's merry band surviving and getting their own chapter that will be a happy ending as far as the novels are concerned.

These characters lost their bonds of brotherhood and purpose. If they are all Grey Knights by the end they have not only gotten that brotherhood back but have the most important purpose in the Imperium.

Unless the last novel is several thousand pages in length we will see nothing of the decline of the Imperium nor how futile a mission the Grey Knights actually have. They will have gotten back everything they valued and had torn from them by the betrayal of their brethren. And then, from the perspective of a series of novels only, the story ends.

this isn't a huge leap or an example of facile story telling

No one is saying it is a huge leap nor facile story telling. Everything written by James Swallow is fine by me, he's one of my favourite authors. What we are saying is that in a novel series full of revelations and twists thus far, having the path of certain characters apparently so explicitly laid out so far makes us question whether that is the eventual fate of said characters at all.
The fact that certain authors including Swallow himself have said that we shouldn't leap to conclusions when it comes to the fate of these characters also adds to our doubts.

[shadowhawk2008]

Nicely put, spider-pope. Totally agree on all counts.

[Karl MkVI]

For me, the reason they're gatheirng this merry band is, yes, for some further purpose with regards to the fluff (and what direction that might be taking has aready been discussed here). However (or at least I hope I'm right), it is also simply a storytelling tool;

When the Heresy reaches its climactic stages, we will have central characters (the Emperor, the Primarchs, Malcador, Sigismund, etc etc) doing the 'big stuff'; fighting the wars, calling the shots, taking down bloodthirsters, and so on. But, next to that, Garro and his little band have opened up a whole world of potential for breeding a 'men on a mission' vibe through the whole thing. A microcosm to the macrocosm, if you will.

Imagine it in a film; no film would focus solely on an enormous war; it wouldn't 'work'. but it would work much better if one could cut away to a mission going on elsewhere (a la LOTR films).

All this, of course, for the purposes of storytelling, excitement, more 'personal attachment' in the reading of it, and so on. And, to me, it's a really exciting prospect.

Hope I explained what I mean well enough for people to get my drift!

/My Two Pence