Forgeworld getting a finecast make-over?

[luchog]

.
in my case it was down to the shape of my nose which apparently makes it quite difficult to properly fit a mask on.

Odd, since I've known people with rather sizable proboscides who were able to make the dust masks work without a problem. I also have a face shape that makes dust masks a bit trickier to to use for me. Just takes a bit of reshaping (the strip of metal in the top of most stiff dust masks helps keep things in place), especially if I don't want humid exhalate leaking out the top and fogging my glasses. Worst-case, a surgical-style soft mask and bit of lightly-adhesive bandage tape will do the trick.

There's always a way to get things to work if you're sufficiently resourceful (and unorthodox, in many cases).

[Yodhrin]

You make me sound like an uneducated buffoon instead of someone with a master's degree in engineering and 30 years of experience in model-making. If the only level of evidence you will accept is scientific prove of similarity by providing data such as Young's modulus, melting point, ductility etc then I hold that unreasonable - I don't have access to testing facilities and neither do you.

I can only tell you that the surface hardness is different. Unlike many other material characteristics, this is something that doesn't have a scientific measure and is in fact measured empirically. Empirically....

And this is why scientists groan when engineers escape from the drafting room. An Empirical measurement -is- a scientific measurement, being as it is a measurement which can be verified through observation and experimentation. Note; "it feels funny" or "it looks funny" is not an empirical observation.

On an unrelated note, regarding the hyperbole about how finecast is the most awful thing to happen to humanity since the Spanish Flu; I really wish FC critics would make up their mind. First it's too bendy, then it's too brittle. First it's too soft to cut properly, then it shatters at the mere sight of a knife. And oh my, the whinging about air bubbles; have any of you ever ordered from FW before?

[de Selby]

Hardness is one of the few things where a standard scale exists that we can test at home. My feeling is that the FC stuff is softer and lighter than FW resin that I've handled, but I could be wrong and I don't have any spare bits around to test. Density would also be easy to determine is you had a big enough block of the stuff (or precise enough scales and measuring cylinder).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohs_sc...neral_hardness
On the Mohs scale, graphite (a principal constituent of pencil "lead") has a hardness of 1.5; a fingernail, 2.2–2.5; a copper penny, 3.2–3.5; a pocketknife 5.1; a knife blade, 5.5; window glass plate, 5.5; and a steel file, 6.5.[9] A streak plate (unglazed porcelain) has a hardness of 7.0. Using these ordinary materials of known hardness can be a simple way to approximate the position of a mineral on the scale.

Unfortunately I suspect that both FC and FW resin come in somewhere around 2.5. Can you scratch one with the other? Anyone with a bit of sprue want to check?

On an unrelated note, regarding the hyperbole about how finecast is the most awful thing to happen to humanity since the Spanish Flu; I really wish FC critics would make up their mind. First it's too bendy, then it's too brittle. First it's too soft to cut properly, then it shatters at the mere sight of a knife. And oh my, the whinging about air bubbles; have any of you ever ordered from FW before?

Yes. My first 6 FW sets came without air bubbles, whereas my first 1 FC product came with...

[spaint2k]

And this is why scientists groan when engineers escape from the drafting room. An Empirical measurement -is- a scientific measurement, being as it is a measurement which can be verified through observation and experimentation. Note; "it feels funny" or "it looks funny" is not an empirical observation.

Gah. You're absolutely right. Buy me some pizza and beer and lock me back inside.

What I really wanted to state was what de Selby explained above; namely that hardness can be measured relatively at home without needing instrumentation. Moh's scale doesn't give us a quantity for hardness, but we do get a qualitative measure of hardness and can say that object A is harder than object B.

I don't know if either resin type can scratch the other, but the "finecast" Forge World stuff I have can be scratched by a fingernail while the other example can't.

[spaint2k]

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/...t-repacks.html

I'm sure it's nothing. Besides, where's the scientific and incontrovertible PROOF?

[Zinge]

Posted by Chewie on BOLS

"(...)To address your points, however, we'd like to point out that Forge World do not sell Finecast products; Finecast is a Citadel brand, not a specific type of resin, and so we are not operating some sort of scam as you imply in your e-mail, nor are we misrepresenting our products. As we are perhaps the largest single manufacturer of resin models in the world, it should be unsurprising that the Citadel decision to begin using similar materials a certain amount of consultancy with ourselves.

"Forge World use a huge range of different types of resin and just as wide a range of casting methods depending on the kit in question. You'll note that the resin used for a Titan is very different for that used to produce solid resin scenery, or a smaller resin infantry model, or indeed the new range of hollow resin scenery that we're starting to release. What you describe as 'Finecast resin' is simply a different mix, one that we've used for some time for smaller and more detailed models where appropriate.

"The centrifugal casting process used to produce the Citadel Finecast range is again something that Forge World began looking at some time ago; you rightly point out that the traditional drop-casting method is extremely time- and labour-intensive, the spin-casting method is just as involved but the quality checking is rather more critical. This has obviously not been performed as stringently as it should have been, but as the Citadel and Forge World production teams are separate we're obviously unable to comment upon, or influence, the policies in place regarding Finecast."

Ead Brown, Customer Service Manager, Forge World, March 7, 2012

[spaint2k]

If it smells like excrement, looks like excrement, and feels (?) like excrement...

[lbecks]

Posted by Chewie on BOLS

"(...)To address your points, however, we'd like to point out that Forge World do not sell Finecast products; Finecast is a Citadel brand, not a specific type of resin, and so we are not operating some sort of scam as you imply in your e-mail, nor are we misrepresenting our products. As we are perhaps the largest single manufacturer of resin models in the world, it should be unsurprising that the Citadel decision to begin using similar materials a certain amount of consultancy with ourselves.

"Forge World use a huge range of different types of resin and just as wide a range of casting methods depending on the kit in question. You'll note that the resin used for a Titan is very different for that used to produce solid resin scenery, or a smaller resin infantry model, or indeed the new range of hollow resin scenery that we're starting to release. What you describe as 'Finecast resin' is simply a different mix, one that we've used for some time for smaller and more detailed models where appropriate.

"The centrifugal casting process used to produce the Citadel Finecast range is again something that Forge World began looking at some time ago; you rightly point out that the traditional drop-casting method is extremely time- and labour-intensive, the spin-casting method is just as involved but the quality checking is rather more critical. This has obviously not been performed as stringently as it should have been, but as the Citadel and Forge World production teams are separate we're obviously unable to comment upon, or influence, the policies in place regarding Finecast."

Ead Brown, Customer Service Manager, Forge World, March 7, 2012

Even they're embarrassed by FC quality control! So they sometimes use the same mix as FC resin. I guess this is case closed.

[spaint2k]

Haha! Nicely spotted!

I'd also like to point out that I was severely critcized earlier in the thread for trusting my eyes and fingers instead of blindly believing the canned platitude FW was previously handing out. Now that Ead himself has confirmed that FW has used Finecast mix I believe Eldargal owes me at least a thousand internets.

[eldargal]

Well given that Forge World told me they used a variety of resins but not Finecast, I'll certainly apologise for any offense I may have caused spaint2k, but the real malefactor is Forge World. They said repeatedly what I quoted here, that Finecast was a differnet resin and a different technique.

[selfconstrukt]

I'd just like to add that the Privateer Press kits that are being converted over to resin/metal hybrid kits are also done by spin-casting resin.

The main difference is that my GW Dark Eldar Wracks, Mandrakes and Incubi all had to be returned several times (I had to wait 2 weeks for a replacement of my Incubi ) before I got what I felt was acceptable quality, they still had several issues (I just got tired of waiting) but the PP Bronzeback Titan kit I bought was flawless; not a bubble, rough mark, tear out or mold shift anywhere. Add to that the resin (and metal) parts of the BB Titan had very few vents and "clean up" areas, unlike the ridiculously vented and sprued GW Finecast parts.

[de Selby]

If I understand right, there would seem to be two aspects to the finecast method: one is the type of resin and one is the fact that it's spincast (FW's assertion that irrespective of method they don't make finecast products because Finecast is a Citadel brand, while arguable in court, is not hugely helpful to say the least). It seemed like the spincast approach was leading to more bubbles than other resin products previously available.

So if PP is making spincast resin stuff without frequent issues that's a good sign (even if the exact resin is different that bit would be easy to change, I should think). If the FW finecast-but-not-FinecastTM stuff is coming out ok (is it?) that's an even better sign. It means that there is the potential at least for GW to reach higher standards of quality control using this method. I don't know whether they care enough about my custom to do so, however.

[Jobu]

On an unrelated note, regarding the hyperbole about how finecast is the most awful thing to happen to humanity since the Spanish Flu; I really wish FC critics would make up their mind. First it's too bendy, then it's too brittle. First it's too soft to cut properly, then it shatters at the mere sight of a knife. And oh my, the whinging about air bubbles; have any of you ever ordered from FW before?

I have also worked with some FW resin, and it has only been the really hard kind, without any bubbles.

however, finecast IS all of those things, it is bendy, it is brittle and it is soft. Whatever resin is being used is, first and foremost brittle, then it is soft. Being bendy is a combination of design and material.

I have had this happen: while cutting a FC model away from the sprue, carefully, with a craft knife( this was a LoTR Minas Tirith White Knight, removing the model below the slotta part from the sprue ), as I was about 1/2 of the way through the part broke away. I was doing this on a craft mat, and as the part flew away I thought it seemed rather large. As I looked down at the model, both feet and the slotta had sheered off the model. I was totally dumbfounded. To be fair I think some of it was the design and some could have been me, but it was still a shock to me that it was so brittle. No plastic type deformation, just sheered right off.

As far as air bubbles go, I have had to get replacements for 3/4 packs of finecast models. The one I did not send back still had issues but were minor at best and I did not want to wait for a new one. GW has replaced those other three, 2 of which still had problems but not in the same models ( multi pack command sets btw ). This last one, a Dweller in the dark, had huge problems, a whole lot of air bubbles, which were all located on chest/ fur/tail and feet on the main body. Some of these were deceptively small, since they were really sub surface bubbles which collapsed when I pushed on them. I can only hope the replacement is better, most of the other parts-arms and wings were fine. So as long as the main body is fine I can get a whole model out of it.

[Bael]

Interesting. This explains some of the terrible casts I have received from FW in the past year that I mentioned earlier in the thread. The 2 kits in question were the Marine commander accessories and the Red Scorpion Command Squad. Both were very similar in quality to FC resin so I guess they were spin cast which is why they turned out so bad.

I have a bunch of PP resin kits also. None have had miscast problems. The issue I have with the are the placement of the mould lines (Khador Man-O-Wars especially). For the smaller parts they are also still using metal I guess because they have not been successful casting them in resin. The problems I have had with Finecast and FW spin cast have all been on really small and detailed parts.

Even they're embarrassed by FC quality control! So they sometimes use the same mix as FC resin. I guess this is case closed.

I think FW are referring to their own QC in that email (which has been poor).

[Yodhrin]

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/...t-repacks.html

I'm sure it's nothing. Besides, where's the scientific and incontrovertible PROOF?

2012 Event Only Enforcer; Finecast packaging but not finecast.





Titan Techpriest from years ago when first released, long before finecast.




FW have stated that Finecast is a process which uses a specific mixture of a type of resin which they have used(the resin, not the mixture). They have stated that the do not produce Finecast models. There is clear evidence of FW using a variety of resins in many mixes -both on different types of miniature and on different batches of the same miniatures- going back years, and of the resulting models possessing many different "feels", hardness, rigidity, responsiveness to heat etc etc etc. So why are you so absolutely determined to seize any scrap and exclaim "AHA! They MUST be lying and actually using Finecast!". The issues with Finecast are due to the process; old moulds designed for metal, use of centrifuges, inexperience, and poor QC, so how can FW, using a different mixture of the same or similar resin in moulds designed for resin without centrifuges and with, while not perfect, better QC, be making ******* Finecast?

If I put down a bowl of cheese sauce and a bowl of custard, are you going to insist they're the same thing because they have a similar colour and share some characteristics of viscosity?

[Noserenda]

PP isnt a flawless procedure either, my gaming group buys a hell of a lot of Forgeworld without much in the way of issue but the Menoth Starter box and menoth big fat halberd dudes (I forget sorry!) were a goddamn nightmare to put together with horrible badly hacked off plugs in all the Light jacks legs for example. The Only thing that comes close was my Tigersharks hull being a bit off scale to the rest of the model, annoyingly meaning lots of extra fitting.

Ultimately though, if I hadnt been working to a tight schedule and a capable enough modeller to plow on Im confident I could have gotten another Tigershark hull from Forgeworld which keeps my confidence in them. PP have a considerably less sterling reputation in the UK (I have heard its a lot better in the states though).

I could ofc be lucky, both my finecast purchases have been fine too

[Deamon-forge]

i am liking how the new items are packed. but just hope we dont get the bill for the plastic blisters.

re PP iv got a few items and the mould lines mould slip is stupid!

[spaint2k]

If I put down a bowl of cheese sauce and a bowl of custard, are you going to insist they're the same thing because they have a similar colour and share some characteristics of viscosity?

No, because they taste different. Perhaps if I lacked a sense of taste - much like I lack a set of tools for chemical analysis of resin - I would declare them effectively the same. My "finecast" space marine character conversion pack "tastes" just like finecast while the second one I bought doesn't. By "taste" of course I mean looks, feels, bends, weighs and even smells like finecast. It was obviously produced by spincasting, unlike the second set I bought.

At this point, given Ead's admission to using fc techniques and materials, I don't really care whether my models are made from a resin mix identical to finecast, one that differs by one part per million, or one that's radically different; the end result is the same: bendy resin with unusual microbubbled surfacing and I'm concerned it will sag in Taiwan's summer heat.

And before I'm accused of having no proof that finecast sags in summer, here's one I had sag on me last year:

[Autumn Leaves]

On an unrelated note, regarding the hyperbole about how finecast is the most awful thing to happen to humanity since the Spanish Flu; I really wish FC critics would make up their mind. First it's too bendy, then it's too brittle. First it's too soft to cut properly, then it shatters at the mere sight of a knife. And oh my, the whinging about air bubbles; have any of you ever ordered from FW before?

Let me spell it out to you then, in simple terms... Finecast is crap.
Got it?
Good.
Fine cast came out with the billing, from the manufacturer that is was the best thing since sliced bread. Incredible quality blah blah blah The truth is less than 50% of the purchases are really up to the quality of the same models that were originally produced in the same moulds but in metal. The price has sky rocketed since the models were changed from metal to resin.
The whole project is sub standard and yet the GW white knights come charging around proclaiming the fabulous after sales service that replaces the unworthy purchase.
Folks, if you get the job done right the first time and provide the customer with a product that does not need to be exchanged immediately often introducing a waiting time for that customer, because of the shabby quality of the product, then and ONLY then you are providing the customer with excellent service.

Re Forge World.
It appears Forge world are not 'officially' using finecast resin.
FW quality has fluctuated across the years but for the greater part has been of a high standard of quality workmanship.
There has been a drop in quality in recent times judging by the increased number of FW complaints appearing and it is interesting to see whether it is simply coincidence, or whether it has an element of truth to it.
Fine cast is a GW product and Forge world are a GW owned entity.
Are Forge world still based in the GW carpark in Lenton?

[selfconstrukt]

I have a bunch of PP resin kits also...The issue I have with the are the placement of the mould lines (Khador Man-O-Wars especially.

PP isnt a flawless procedure either, my gaming group buys a hell of a lot of Forgeworld without much in the way of issue but the Menoth Starter box and menoth big fat halberd dudes (I forget sorry!) were a goddamn nightmare to put together with horrible badly hacked off plugs in all the Light jacks legs for example.

The plastics that PP makes are outsourced to a company in China, I think the same one that made the Monsterpocalypse models, so there is a difference in quality.From what I gathered from talking to staff at Lock & Load last year they were sent samples from China for approval before production began but then the final product did not match the quality of the samples. Basically PP was not getting what they paid for. I was told that since then the molds have been remade and the new kits are much better, in addition all of the new kits to be made have the placement of the gates and sprues in much better positions. Someone at the studio level in PP is dictating to China where to place those now so the newer kits are much better in design and quality.

PP have a considerably less sterling reputation in the UK (I have heard its a lot better in the states though

That's because PP has it's casting for Europe outsourced to a company named Cerberus, PP has very little control over that. I don't know why though, it's their product they should be able to. IIRC Cerberus is owned by the man who used to run the moldmaking and casting for Ral Partha or RAFM, can't remember which.

Are Forge world still based in the GW carpark in Lenton?

Yes, they are in the Lenton HQ proper now, at least last time I was there they were. Things change quickly at GW so they might have their own warehouse by now for all I know.