Bunnahabhain's all-in-one Marine Codex

[Bunnahabhain]

Hi all,

I've long through it should be possible to do an all in one marine book, and have a fairly compact list, so as to leave plenty of room for special characters and background for lots of chapters. So I've had a go.

My aims are
: To cover all loyalist chapters (Grey knights as marines, not a whole Inquisition book)

: No special characters here, mainly as I can't be bothered to write them all up.
If you wish to please do so, and add them. Please no army wide buffs, FOCs swaps, etc. No complex new mechanics
Boosts to one unit or such like are fine.

: To cover all major options that currently exist, without invalidating more than a handful of models. Units may have to be rejigged.

: Just to give a main layout of the significant options. Plenty of stuff is taken as read.
If something obvious is missing, please add a note. Some things have been removed on purpose, but it should say so

: Not fully costed here- options can be costed up later, and I can't be bothered now.

: No dedicated transport allowed if your unit cannot fit in it due to size/armour when you write the list!

: Any '1 model in 3' type options determine unit size before attaching characters, wolf guard, etc

: ???? any line like this implies an open question???

: I'd welcome contributions on how to cover the divergent chapters.


The whole list is here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...rSMuqh0BY/edit

Please feel free to comment either here or on the document itself. I don't know enough about all the different chapters to do them justice, but others do.

Thank you.

[xerxeshavelock]

Just a little idea I had for Drop Pods. Back in the old old days the Epic Rules for Drop Pods said they would get so hot during reentry they would sometimes not open immediately. I think I would like to see the Drop Pod assault be more controllable but have this restriction.

I also like the CHMar thing of Bolter, Pistol and CCW, and think this should be included as standard.

Devs - no Auspex?

Dreads - should have Cyclone Missiles imo. Like the Orbital Bombardment for the Tactician.

Terms - Power Weapon option the same price?

Looks like a good base to work from.

[Bunnahabhain]

Good points there.

Drop pod assualt was something I'd meant to look at, and simply forgot about. Reworking it in a tidy fashion wants doing.

Terminators power weapon, and Devs auspex simple omissions. They're going in

Dreads cyclones- Interesting though. Haven't seen those since....2nd ed? Same kind of profile as terminator ones?

Bolter, pistol and CCW for all- I don't think so. My thoughts were that by not giving it to all units, the ones with it stand out more. Seeing the consensus on this might be interesting though...

[lanrak]

Hi Bunnahabhin.
Just an idea for covering varing chapters.

Split the basic differences in to 'Geneseed traits' , and 'strategic traits'.

And each trait allows advantages WITH ACTUAL DISADVANTAGES.

Eg Assault trait allows one type of fast attack unit to be taken as troop chioce, but restricts heavy support chioces to 0-1.
(Eg White scars can take bike units as troops chioces , but can only take one heavy suport chioce.)

I know loads of marine players and GW devs simply want marines to get all advantages with no disadantages .

But the THE DUDE wrote a trait system for marines for 4th ed that was far more ballanced and far reaching than GW official efforts.

[Bunnahabhain]

The trouble I've had with a traits system is it's really hard to come up with disadvantages to balance the advantages that:

1)Make any difference to the player- if they're building a bike heavy force, they probably weren't planning on using any devastators, so them being disallowed isn't a disadvantage.

2)That make the slightest sense background-wise.

If I could see a trial implementation that works well I might gain some inspiration, but It hasn't struck so far. There are a few relatively easy ones, but I run out of ideas before I run out of named, divergent chapters.
And I had no idea how to cover wolves and black templars with their odd structures via traits.


The Guard doctrines from 4th ed were a much better way of balancing forces, as they start off as all restrictions, and you choose which ones you lift but they run into two main problems here:

1) Marines have a lower unit count, so need fewer specializations unlocked to fill their FOC

2) Marines should always have many things available, such as transports., deep strike ability, and have set armour. Once you remove those kinds of changes to the force, the doctrine type system doesn't look worth using either.


As I can't make any better system work, I'm falling back to what I've used here.

FOC Changes powered by captains kit.
The advantages are:
1)It's simple.

2)It doesn't rely on a Special charcter or Chapter- --( I see what you mean with strategic traits though)

3). It is intrinsically limited- you can only have as many swaps as HQ FOC slot. If you want scoring bikes and jump packs, you don't get any Librarians or Chaplins



I'm Aware my current solution to covering divergent chapters and their FOC bending isn't good- it is by far the weakest section of the list. However, it was the least bad answer I found.

If you know where the Dudes fairly balanced traits system is, or feel like writing some yourself, please do! the main reason it's on Google documents is so other people can add
things.

[Bunnahabhain]

I think the underlying problem is that there isn't much diversity in the marine list, and trying to find or impose it will therefore run into problems...

[zerodemon]

Follow the example set by the Tempus Fugitives with their Age of the Emperor pre-heresy rules expansion. Be nice if GW released a marine book covering several modern major chapters in this fashion. I think every 40K player would buy it on principle.

[Bunnahabhain]

The Temups Fugitives M31 pack is very nice, but it is designed around the marine vs marine paradigm.

Also, I'm trying to get away from the legendary units problem- Every single marine is supposed to be a legend, which means you shouldn't pick out 5% of them as super
-legendary..., and 1% as super-special-extra-legandary...

This is why I am against having special characters unlock FOC changes or such like- if thereisn't a generic way to do it, it shouldn't be done at.

[zerodemon]

Not what I was getting at. Each force has an army wide special rule and the legendary units are unlocked by taking normal units, not the other way around.

[Bunnahabhain]

The legendary unit system there is fine for a expansion campaign for expereinced players.

Overlaying a 'legendary points' system over the FOC and the points limit is far too complex for a standard codex. I want to keep any FOC changes or unit unlocks as simple as possible.

[jt.glass]

I haven't read the doc yet, but I wanted to respond to something you said in the Tactical Marine thread about captains:

Captain + jump pack = may take assault squads as troops

The problem with this one is, what about non-jump Pack Assault Squads. It is a problem I have been pondering myself, and have yet to resolve. Is their any other assault-themed upgrade that could do instead?

If you wish to [write up special characters], please do so, and add them. Please no army wide buffs, FOCs swaps, etc.

Does that include SC captains? Because it seems a bit weird that a generic biker captain could unlock bikes as Troops, but Korsoro Khan couldn't...


jt.

[Bunnahabhain]

1) Any Assault marine squads have the option to remove their jump packs if they so wish, which allows them to take a transport, including drop pods. There is a standing rule in the army that you can't take a transport if you don't fit in it, and Jump infantry don't fit in normal transports

I know it's a little klunky, mainly as it means you can't have the Jump pack captain etc in a drop pod. But I can't think of anything better



2) No, the document makes it clearer. Special charters can (indeed, should to avoid WTF moments )unlock the same choices as a generic alternative.

I just wanted to make sure you don't have to have special charcter XXX to get access to build Y. I'm fed up with the idea that only this one specific captain, with this unique wargear and stat line has ever had the idea of using a mainly bike mounted force, or other fairly obvious things.

[jt.glass]

1) Any Assault marine squads have the option to remove their jump packs if they so wish, which allows them to take a transport, including drop pods. There is a standing rule in the army that you can't take a transport if you don't fit in it, and Jump infantry don't fit in normal transports

Yeah, that is pretty much the standard rule (apart from the not being able to get Transports you can't fit in bit). What I was getting at was; that even if you have an army full of Assault Squads without packs, in Rhinos or Drop Pods, you still need a jump pack captain to make them Troops. Which is weird...


jt.

[zerodemon]

In the instance of building a jump pack force (ie 8th company or Raven Guard) it makes sense that their is a trade off and normal Tactical Marines get moved in to the Elites section. This allows you to build a pretty rocking army made up of;

60 Assault Marines in Troops
30 Assault Marines/Bike Marines in Fast Attack
Captain
Chaplain
Command Squad
3 Dreadnoughts

For a nearly full company. Shame you can't squeeze in that last assault squad somewhere.

[Bunnahabhain]

If anyone can think of a better way to unlock assault squads as troops than a Jump pack captain, I'd love to hear it ( In all seriousness, I would)

Zerodemon, under my list, you could take a veteran squad with jump packs (elite slot) as your 10th assault squad.

[sancraer]

Troops that aren't going to be troops are always going to be a problem. The units weren't designed to be troops, and so cost a little bit less than they should be if they are troops.

If the codices were internally balanced perfectly then you could use any unit as a troop but unfortunately they never are (the troops cost more because of where they are scoring...)

Moving on... I'd like to see:
-Assault squads have to keep their jump pack (made troops by captain with jump pack)
-Tactical squads have the option of 2 special weapons or 2 heavy weapons (like stern-guard). Maybe the option to switch their bolter to chainsword and bolt pistol?
-Terminators limited to 5 per squad, I don't like hammer units, I think they're stupid and make an otherwise interesting game based on whether the opponent list can deal with it. Storm shields should stay 3++, they're meant to be ridiculously good.
-Bike captain making scout bikers troops
-A piece of wargear that allows troops to go to ground and still fire?
-Captain with good ranged weapon
-Whirlwind better in some way

I don't think Grey Knights should be in it, they are a completely different force. Their current codex should just be less similar to the marine one.

[Inquisitor_Tolheim]

Looking at the document, you made Long Fangs a separate item nested under Space Wolves, but didn't actually make them any different. Did you forget the special "split fire" rule, or was it intentional that they be exactly the same? I personally don't see the justification for making Space Wolf devastators extra special, but I might have missed something.

Aside from a few "work in progress" quibbles like the one above, I really like the idea you're going for here. You've done a good job of condensing marine forces into a solid core, and allowed chapter variations without making them over the top.

I would just as soon see Grey Knights moved to an "Allies" supplement where they are just Deepstriking Terminators/PA Marines that can be added to an existing force. The same could be done to the Inquisition units. (This is coming from a guy with some 5k points in Daemonhunter/GK stuff) Unfortunately the Pandoras box is already open and Grey Knight have been made into a standalone marine force, so it'll probably never happen.

[Bunnahabhain]

Long fangs keep their inherent Ld9 through, hence the separate stat line. The split fire is gone, as is change the 0-4 heavies, not their current 0-5.

If split fire going to happen, then it shouldn't be just this one unit.

....... Grey knights....

I'd love to boot them back to being a small allied contingent for an imperial army, but as you say, I don't think this box can be closed again.

Given this problem, I'd prefer to have them as something near a codex marine chapter, so I've thrown in some rough rules for them, that are hopefully rather better balanced than the current mess of a book.

Thanks for the comments and support.



@ sancraer
Moving on... I'd like to see:

-Tactical squads have the option of 2 special weapons or 2 heavy weapons (like stern-guard). Maybe the option to switch their bolter to chainsword and bolt pistol?
No. I've added two move and fire heavies for the heavy slot

-Terminators limited to 5 per squad, I don't like hammer units, I think they're stupid and make an otherwise interesting game based on whether the opponent list can deal with it.
Plenty of people do like these big units, and it fits for some chapters. They can be taken as the classic 5 man unit, so if you don't like 10 man units, don't take them!
Storm shields should stay 3++, they're meant to be ridiculously good.
No. They make too many other options unviable at 3++, and they just feel stupid. Also,if you want a special character, then a 3++ save now feels special

-Bike captain making scout bikers troops
Interesting idea. Maybe something for a chapter that uses lots of scouts, but to me, doesn't feel right as a generic thing.

-A piece of wargear that allows troops to go to ground and still fire?
No thanks.

-Captain with good ranged weapon
Good plan, will have a think. Any suggestions?

-Whirlwind better in some way
Yes, but how? I'm reluctant to make them squadron-able, and giving them two shots seems too much
EDIT: given them re-roll on scatter dice.

[Bunnahabhain]

Possible idea.....
Just make Foot assault squads troops to begin with.

Keep the captain with jump pack making jump pack ones troops, so you'd end up able to do...

Captain with jump pack
FA 3 jump pack or mechanised/foot assault squads
troops 6 JP assault squads
or
FA 3 jump pack or mechanised/foot assault squads
troops 6 mechanised/foot assault squads

[Rick Blaine]

An idea I toyed with was having a Captain with a Bike/Jump Pack/Termie armour unlock a Bike/Jump Pack/Termie Command Squad, and then taking the Command Squad would move the appropriate base unit to Troops.