Dark Elf Wishlist

[Gustav Kohn]

I hate to put a downer on the discussion, but if other 8th ed. army books are to be any guide, the DE are in for a nerfing. Empire received this treatment to bring them to O&G level and DE were above EMpire in power so it is safe to assume that they will get taken down even more. The posts calling for a few slight point changes will probably be disappointed as this is exactly what empire players were calling for, but instead we got nerfed. Models received nerfing AND point increase. With this in mind, expect...

PoK to be kept, but it will be pointed for Lords only (A 4+ ward is 50 points and the PoK is a 4+ ward against str.3 and only better after that)
Buffs to units to be more expensive and the buffing item to be more fragile (Cauldron of Blood)
Magic to be powerful in casting but to have serious reprecussions
Access to all Lores but Power of Darkness only for Dark Lore
Cav will decrease in cost
Infantry probably will remain costed the same or more for the most part.

[Zabousta]

As a Dark Elf player, I can agree to some of these wishes, although some seem extreme. The idea of giant suits of walking armor, while cool seems a bit over the top. Dwarves will be the only army with golems

The bolt thrower seems fine to me. Since the Empire artillery was increased in price, it makes me feel that the current price for the Reaper Bolt Thrower is where it should be. (I however wouldn't mind it being BS 5 with a single shot and BS 4 with a volley) Elves don't use mortars. Play Empire if you want one.

T4 models? Elves have great leadership, weapon and ballistic skill and initiative. They should be bad at something.

Increase the cost of spearmen? Hmm, you give me attacking in extra ranks and always strike first and maybe. Dark Elves get one good round with hatred. After that they are 3 Str 3 T models with spears. 8th Ed is all about big blocks. Nobody would want to pay too much for STR3 T3 units. They just don't hold up after the first round.

Please keep daemons out of Dark Elves. There are enough daemon associated armies.

Corsairs.....hmm to me they are too close to the functionality of Witch Elves. I only ever take them when I don't want to field a Cauldron.

Black Guard. As far as I know, the only unit in the game that is capped and isn't skirmish or scout. Take the cap off Black Guard and put it on the Shades.

Hydra. Good because its pretty cheap. Take that away and you have little reason to field it as units of Witch Elves / Black Guard are way better performers for the price. I would however like to see more monsters added. The idea of fielding Beastmasters and then having a choice of monster upgrades would be sweet.

Slaves. Don't need / want them. I don't play Dark Elves because I want slaves. I like the eliteness of the army. As for lore, Yes they have lots of slaves, no they wouldn't use them in combat. Dark Elves only train for combat and war. It states that they never ever do menial tasks, that is the job for the slaves. Why would you send crappy fighters to do the job you train your whole life for? Not to mention that slaves would be expensive, as I am sure they would be a commodity unto itself.

You can't take shadow away. It wouldn't make sense. Mindrazor is a bit insane, but other armies can take it too. It would be like removing Lore of Life away from Lizardmen. I can agree on the power die cap. While a great ability, if you add it with mindrazor it can be unbalanced. Perhaps tweak the rule so it only applies to Dark Magic.

Crossbowmen. They seem priced right to me, maybe 1 more. Since everyone fields blocks of 40+ models in 8th ed, ranged units are becoming much less effective. Yes High Elf archers are a point more, but they have longbows which out range repeater crossbows and can volley (making up for the xbows double shot) Unfortunately HE players pay for always strikes first, even on their archers. It would make more sense to remove that rule from them and lower the HE archer cost instead.

Magic items. Yeah they will be severely cut, just like every other 8th ed release.

[DaemonReign]

Empire received this treatment to bring them to O&G level - we got nerfed.

Sure Dark Elves are certainly not gonna get buffed, agreed.
I emphatically disagree with your conclusion on Empire though.
If anything, that Army is better now. I think you're missing the forrest for the trees there a little bit.

[TsukeFox]

As a Dark Elf player, I can agree to some of these wishes, although some seem extreme. The idea of giant suits of walking armor, while cool seems a bit over the top. Dwarves will be the only army with golems

The bolt thrower seems fine to me. Since the Empire artillery was increased in price, it makes me feel that the current price for the Reaper Bolt Thrower is where it should be. (I however wouldn't mind it being BS 5 with a single shot and BS 4 with a volley) Elves don't use mortars. Play Empire if you want one.

T4 models? Elves have great leadership, weapon and ballistic skill and initiative. They should be bad at something.

Increase the cost of spearmen? Hmm, you give me attacking in extra ranks and always strike first and maybe. Dark Elves get one good round with hatred. After that they are 3 Str 3 T models with spears. 8th Ed is all about big blocks. Nobody would want to pay too much for STR3 T3 units. They just don't hold up after the first round.

Please keep daemons out of Dark Elves. There are enough daemon associated armies.

Corsairs.....hmm to me they are too close to the functionality of Witch Elves. I only ever take them when I don't want to field a Cauldron.

Black Guard. As far as I know, the only unit in the game that is capped and isn't skirmish or scout. Take the cap off Black Guard and put it on the Shades.

Hydra. Good because its pretty cheap. Take that away and you have little reason to field it as units of Witch Elves / Black Guard are way better performers for the price. I would however like to see more monsters added. The idea of fielding Beastmasters and then having a choice of monster upgrades would be sweet.

Slaves. Don't need / want them. I don't play Dark Elves because I want slaves. I like the eliteness of the army. As for lore, Yes they have lots of slaves, no they wouldn't use them in combat. Dark Elves only train for combat and war. It states that they never ever do menial tasks, that is the job for the slaves. Why would you send crappy fighters to do the job you train your whole life for? Not to mention that slaves would be expensive, as I am sure they would be a commodity unto itself.

You can't take shadow away. It wouldn't make sense. Mindrazor is a bit insane, but other armies can take it too. It would be like removing Lore of Life away from Lizardmen. I can agree on the power die cap. While a great ability, if you add it with mindrazor it can be unbalanced. Perhaps tweak the rule so it only applies to Dark Magic.

Crossbowmen. They seem priced right to me, maybe 1 more. Since everyone fields blocks of 40+ models in 8th ed, ranged units are becoming much less effective. Yes High Elf archers are a point more, but they have longbows which out range repeater crossbows and can volley (making up for the xbows double shot) Unfortunately HE players pay for always strikes first, even on their archers. It would make more sense to remove that rule from them and lower the HE archer cost instead.

Magic items. Yeah they will be severely cut, just like every other 8th ed release.

Okay! Compare the hydra to any of the crap beastman monsters. 200 points is pretty reasonable thing to ask for. make bolt throwers go down in price to compensate.
& the manticores need to get dropped down to 200 points like in SoM.

As for slaves-slaves get sh$t done, just look at the pyramids.
It would be nice to see slaves at least carrying the cauldron of blood (which needs a new model), for I refuse to believe those skinny witches can heft that thing up and carry it across the battlefield.

[tmarichards]

The Cauldron does indeed need a new model. I reckon we'll get it as a new plastic kit, with the alternative assembly option being a giant suit of enchanted armour :/

[The Low King]

Okay! Compare the hydra to any of the crap beastman monsters. 200 points is pretty reasonable thing to ask for. make bolt throwers go down in price to compensate.
& the manticores need to get dropped down to 200 points like in SoM.

:0

200 point hydras or 200 point beastmen monsters? both would be a little too good.

[Silvertooth]

As for slaves-slaves get sh$t done, just look at the pyramids.

By now it is historicly proven that the laborers who built the pyramids werent slaves but well paid workers. The former believe that they were slaves was only because the old testament said so...

[fijbr]

By now it is historicly proven that the laborers who built the pyramids werent slaves but well paid workers. The former believe that they were slaves was only because the old testament said so...

well paid workers? Do you actually believe that? is that why they where slashed to death when they where to slow.
And on top of that I believe the old testament anyday instead of the modern Discovery "analysis"

[Rosstifer]

And on top of that I believe the old testament anyday instead of the modern Discovery "analysis"

Well, there goes any hope of a reasonable argument then

I think 200pts and leaving the Hydra as is now is perfectly fine. I like seeing monsters on the table. I guess a giant suit of armour could be cool, but there is more of a chance of it being silly.

[DaemonReign]

@ ROSSTIFER: *lol* (and agreed about the Hydra at 200pts too incidentally, and the suits of armour as well.. every time they put out something new like that I'm frightened.. so far it's been ok I guess, but any release now we're gonna get stuff that just makes you weep..)

@ FIJBR: You are not serious, right??

[Jal]

To balance the book with 8th edition:

Spears stay same, but have to take shield (so +1 point from base atm)
Rxb to 11

Corsairs stay the same
Witch Elves stay the same
BG go to 14-15
Executoners stay at same
CoB changes to a Chariot with an aura.Multi kit with an "altar of Khaine" that confers Hatred (ie no more Eternal Hatred)
Hydra goes to 200 as is, or follows normal Monster handlers
Shades go to 22 points but have poison.
Reapers go to 70-75 points. Or multi shot is small template (but due to Elven crafmanship is immune to misfires)

Dragon comes down in points
PoD is arrtibute for Dark magic - for every wound caused the user gets to make a channel attempt. if the channel suceeds, player is able to discard the dice to add 1 wound back to the caster (max 2* starting value)

[Djekar]

I was pretty sure that the general consensus was that the architects of the pyramids were well paid (as they should have been. I bet they still got ripped off - poor sods), and that they were constructed with the help of slaves. And if not that, then definitely Aliens.

I'd be fine with a 200 point hydra that follows the Monster & Handler's rules (though 210-215 would also be acceptable). And for all the people suggesting that Shades get poison - really? They are already super good, why buff them anymore?

[The Low King]

Why not just have the hydra at the SOM price? (i assume thats what GW will go for) at 220 points with no handlers and no hatred, so 230-250 for being as it is

[spartan41]

To balance the book with 8th edition:

Spears stay same, but have to take shield (so +1 point from base atm)
Rxb to 11

Corsairs stay the same
Witch Elves stay the same
BG go to 14-15
Executoners stay at same
CoB changes to a Chariot with an aura.Multi kit with an "altar of Khaine" that confers Hatred (ie no more Eternal Hatred)

Without eternal hatred and cauldren buffsthey need to be cheaper.. They either need damage output or some survivability they can't lack either and be as expensive as they are. I don't see DE as a hoard type army so hopefuly GW does DE good and gives them the "Elite" treatment. Give them price increases around the board but make it justifiable. BTW for those saying GW will nerf the hell out of them.. do you really think that's a good idea sales wise??

Also make BG rare and keep the cap(yeah yeah wont happen) unless Malekith is in the army or the general has the writ of iron. A new magic item that takes the cap away and gives a bigger bubble.
All this talk is making me want GW to hurry the F up with this book!!

[Mati]

No,no,no to the removal of eternal hatred! Even with hatred spearmen can loose to night goblins with nets who are still cheaper.. without EH they will be just power dice for sorceress with a dagger, nothing else.

[sulla]

Also, everyone acts like we are the only army that has access to the Shadow Lore. Yes, it is our best lore, but Empire, Lizardmen, and I think Warriors of Chaos have access to Shadow, not sure on other armies.

Why aren't they taking it? What's that? Life is the better choice? So you want to nerf Dark Elves because they have rerollable attacks as an army wide rule and combined with high Str attacks?

Out of all the armies that can access it, HE and DE get far more value out of shadow (out of mindrazor, really) than the others. Both armies have high weapon skill, rerolls, high initiative, high Ld and multiple attacks, meaning they have a high amount of damage potential from even a single rank... pretty good considering how fragile and expensive they are, and how they really can't buff their infantry with a combat character like many of the other combat armies.

I'd be quite happy with DE being forced to take dark magic on their highest level sorceress. I'm far more concerned that they find some way of making elven combat heroes viable and relevant. If they don't do that, needing 2 sorceress' won't be much of a loss because the army won't be fielded with dreadlords or masters anyway.

Well, there goes any hope of a reasonable argument then

Are we talking about the Discovery channel here? If you said "any hope of sensationalist argument," I would be right with you.

[Graxy]

I've only really skimmed through the previous posts so I'm probably going to repeat some of the things said, but anyway, this is what I (a person who is not a dark elf player but somone who has always liked the army and is tempted by one even now) wants from the next book:

1. Up spearmen by a point or two. compare them to other basic core choices and they're a bit underpointed. Either this or bring down the cost of other core units in the future (none of the re-released armies for 8th have really got anything comparable to DE so I can't really work around that).

2. Tullaris and Kouran are made hero special characters. Basically, I want to see them be the anti-korhil/caradryan (not as in better, just the DE versions, but not copy paste rules). Although the range of special characters is fairly decent, these two are efinately characters that deserve a bit more attention.

3. Obvious magic item loss (pendant, dagger. I'm going to say the corsair only frenzy banner needs to be gotten rid of, since I feel that it gives them too strong offensive prowess for their points cost, but this is really a bit ambiguous).

4. Up Hydra points to somewhere in the 200-250 range. Really simple they're just underpointed compared to other monsters.

5. Executioner buffs. Can't remember their points value, but I remember that it's a bit over for their statline.

6. Some sort of eagle esq. rare choice, really just for similarity with their elven bretheren. Maybe giant bats or unridden dark pegusi or something.

7. Toned down army special rule. As DE are such an offensive army it really works a bit too well for them (I know it's fluffy but if we were to do everything by the fluff then the game would be unplayable). Admitedly, high elves having ASF is much stronger a special rule, but we all know that that is very likely to go in their re-write.

8. I've seen some talk of T4 characters. I'm against it. Unless they bring out all 3 elf armies consecutively and make the change to all of them, it unbalances the armies that are supposed to work as a sort of triangle which was made to balance the game (dark=offensive, wood=defensive, high=mixed). Also, each army has something that really compensates for the all around low toughness (wood elves with their forest spirits, high elves with the focus on dragons and dark elves with their hydras and T10 cauldren).

9. Everyone can say whatever they want to see a new model/box for, honestly, I couldnt care less in the most case. The only one that I care about is new black guard. For a unit that has always meant so much to the army, I find the models for them very lackluster (actually, I hate them, but I don't want to offend any of the fans of the current models).

I'm not going to say anything about access to lores of magic since personally I find all of the rulebook lores too overcentralising for any amount of complaining to be made. Really, any army will get a benefit from having access to any of these lores so there's no point in talking about them at all

[Athlan na Dyr]

I've only really skimmed through the previous posts so I'm probably going to repeat some of the things said, but anyway, this is what I (a person who is not a dark elf player but somone who has always liked the army and is tempted by one even now) wants from the next book:

1. Up spearmen by a point or two. compare them to other basic core choices and they're a bit underpointed. Either this or bring down the cost of other core units in the future (none of the re-released armies for 8th have really got anything comparable to DE so I can't really work around that).
A point

2. Tullaris and Kouran are made hero special characters. Basically, I want to see them be the anti-korhil/caradryan (not as in better, just the DE versions, but not copy paste rules). Although the range of special characters is fairly decent, these two are efinately characters that deserve a bit more attention.
Tullaris? Who's that aga... Oh yeah, the executioner guy. Agree with making them a hero option, but Tullaris seriously needs a survivability buff as do most elven combat characters

3. Obvious magic item loss (pendant, dagger. I'm going to say the corsair only frenzy banner needs to be gotten rid of, since I feel that it gives them too strong offensive prowess for their points cost, but this is really a bit ambiguous).
with only a few magic items, I'd really wouldn't want any of them to be for a specific unit. Pendant and Dagger need to go or have a serious re-write

4. Up Hydra points to somewhere in the 200-250 range. Really simple they're just underpointed compared to other monsters.
250 is pushing it, 200-230 maybe?

5. Executioner buffs. Can't remember their points value, but I remember that it's a bit over for their statline.
Agree, but not a huge buff...

6. Some sort of eagle esq. rare choice, really just for similarity with their elven bretheren. Maybe giant bats or unridden dark pegusi or something.
Harpies?

7. Toned down army special rule. As DE are such an offensive army it really works a bit too well for them (I know it's fluffy but if we were to do everything by the fluff then the game would be unplayable). Admitedly, high elves having ASF is much stronger a special rule, but we all know that that is very likely to go in their re-write.
Agree with the 'do everything by the fluff'. God knows where Daemons would be.... I'm not sure as to whether gettign rid of EH is a good idea, as DE are meant to be the hitty elves. Really does depend on what fills the void.

8. I've seen some talk of T4 characters. I'm against it. Unless they bring out all 3 elf armies consecutively and make the change to all of them, it unbalances the armies that are supposed to work as a sort of triangle which was made to balance the game (dark=offensive, wood=defensive, high=mixed). Also, each army has something that really compensates for the all around low toughness (wood elves with their forest spirits, high elves with the focus on dragons and dark elves with their hydras and T10 cauldren).
No T4.

9. Everyone can say whatever they want to see a new model/box for, honestly, I couldnt care less in the most case. The only one that I care about is new black guard. For a unit that has always meant so much to the army, I find the models for them very lackluster (actually, I hate them, but I don't want to offend any of the fans of the current models).
I like the Black Guard models and the executioners. New core infantry however? Shut up and take my money

I'm not going to say anything about access to lores of magic since personally I find all of the rulebook lores too overcentralising for any amount of complaining to be made. Really, any army will get a benefit from having access to any of these lores so there's no point in talking about them at all
Quoted for Truth.

I'd love to see Assassins made viable again. And more Khainite stuff. And iron suits of murder possessed by some khainite spirit. And so on and so forth...

[Druchii Monkey]

I'd be quite happy with DE being forced to take dark magic on their highest level sorceress. I'm far more concerned that they find some way of making elven combat heroes viable and relevant. If they don't do that, needing 2 sorceress' won't be much of a loss because the army won't be fielded with dreadlords or masters anyway.

Agree on forcing the highest level sorceress to take Dark Magic. I refuse to use Lore of Shadow - mindrazor feels like such a cheat to me.

However think elven combat heroes can be quite effective. My favourite is Dreadlord with armour of darkness, black amulet, and great weapon. The black amulet in particular is highly effective at using the enemy's strength against them - 4+ ward save (in close combat success means opponent takes wound). Combined with a 1+ armour save, and 3 x S6 attacks this Dreadlord is fairly effective, and when used in combination with an assassin absolutely deadly. These kind of cheeky combos should stay in a new list.

As a side note think Pendant of Khaeleth should be restricted to sorceresses if it stays at all.

Fundamentally, think the thing with the DE list is the current one is excellent and extremely well balanced and whoever is working on this should bear that in mind. It has nuances in magic which make it sufficiently different from the High Elves which should for the most part stay.

If the consensus is for the Hydra to have it's points increased (which i would disagree with) then if we have to lets crank this up quite a bit and also buff the hydra a bit. Even 300-350 points would be workable with the right improvements - the hydra is too straight-forward to kill at the moment.

[Uriain]

For wish listing, I would personally like to see the following changes

also for the record, I am a DE player (for past 5 years)

1) Hydra increase in points. I think a flat 200 without hatred, or if the army wide hatred rule is kept, 220 is a reasonable price (no stat changes)
2) Corsair handbows increased range to 12"
3) Dark Riders to be brought down a point or two
4) Black Guard Unit size Cap removed and increased in points by 1
5) Manticore's to have some sort of armour save (5+ scaly skin) or a lighter form of regen (I would say also 5+)
6) Cold One Knights to receive 2 attacks (stay same point cost) or be dropped by 2-3 points
7) Melee's characters to be able to purchase a "khainite" rule, so you can have them join Executioners - witch elves still retaining their "crazy lady" status and having only Death Hags and Assassin's join
8) Death Hag on Cauldron of Blood can no longer be the BSB
9)Cauldron's abilities stay the same
10) New "Herdable" monsters, in the form of small animal packs (like Dark Eldar) and 2-3 New Monsters
11) Dark Magic mandatory for the highest level mage in army (I like shadow, but can see how the ridiculousness of no power dice cap to cast makes mind razor a "auto win" button)
12) Spell mechanics like Other lores (ability to boost range, d6 amount, template size)
13) Lore attribute: Two options I think could be good. i. removal of unlimited dice size and give lvl 1/2 casters a +1 to cast, lvl 3.4 casters a +2 OR give level 1/2 casters 1 extra dice to use(being 7) and lvl 3/4 2 extra dice
14) I would like to see Kouran and Tullaris bacl as hero's giving unique buffs to their respective units if taken
15) Pendant increased to 60pt's (which I think is a realistic point cost) or made arcane and cannot make user stubborn
16) Model wise, I would like to see some new harpies, Dark Riders, Shades (though they are still alright) Cold One Charriots and witch elves. All in plastic preferably