Defiance Games - Alien Wars

[Gallahad]

Look, I've looked at what they want to release and if it all works out, I'll be first in line to buy stacks of em. But when theres a history of not delivering on product and letting retailers down, is it so wrong to be cautious and actually see the physical product first?

Fair enough. Like I said, I am closer to the operation than most, so it is easier for me to believe that product will be released. When (or "if" should you prefer)they ship out product, we will both be getting stacks of their stuff.

They are working with a new manufacturer, so the test rifle mold was cut to make sure that the manufacturer indeed had the ability to do what they said they could before DFG pulled the trigger on cutting the first mold. It isn't part of the marine mold. The manufacturer also brought in some additional machines to handle the expected volume that DFG will generate, so once the ball gets rolling I expect several box sets in quick succession.

The new manufacturer is something like an hour away from Tony's house, so no ships and no oceans and no customs offices are involved in the supply chain this time.

My sense is that you will have sprue photos by late next week, but I'm not sure. Hopefully the sprue shots will give everybody some more concrete evidence that actual product will be shipping mid January.

[strewart]

I actually don't know the history of what happened with WGF so I have been watching this exchange with interest. Thanks for the extra info Gallahad! If things go to plan then they could end up with an impressive lineup of models. I'll definitely be watching with interest.

[Zond]

Sprues would be a good start. Right now I don't want to pre-order 3d art, no matter how much it might appeal.

If it is as you claim and box sets will be produced in quick succession, how quick are we talking?

[AlexHolker]

Discounting any past issues, so far the previews have been very sparse. I too would like some more pictures and more release information before I commit.

I agree. They haven't even shown renders of the bare heads, which are likely to be the best indicators of the quality of the kit.

[Gallahad]

You will get more renders soon guys. In fact, I just heard back from Tony, and there should be some public updates tomorrow.

[GomezAddams]

Fair enough. Like I said, I am closer to the operation than most, so it is easier for me to believe that product will be released.

Do you not think that might be a problem here? Your saying 'hey give them a chance, its going to happen', but if your a friend of the guys at defiance its a harder pill to swallow..

[Gallahad]

Sorry guys, DFG was busy today getting a couple more sets ready for tooling, and Tony decided he would just prefer to show the sprues rather than more renders.

@Gomez, I am trying to be upfront with everybody. I am friends with the guys at DFG, and correspond with them semi-regularly. I've seen more renders and concept art than has been available publicly. I'm not any official spokesperson or formally involved with the company. I popped up here because I think the 'vast international conspiracy' theory you seem convinced of is a bit silly and unfair. I realize that I am just some random dude on the internet (and for that matter, so are you). Maybe we both have hidden motives. Hard to tell on a forum.

People are welcome to believe what they want about DFG. They can follow Gomez's thoughts about fake molds, fake product, fake company that will never release anything, or they are welcome to take some sort of even handed skeptical approach and wait until they see sprue pics or until product starts showing up on shelves. I understand the skepticism, and all I can really add is what I know given my position. Hopefully everybody here takes both my optimism about DFG, and Gomez's cynicism with a grain of salt.

I am a bit frustrated because unfortunately I don't know how to add to my credibility much until release. There is more than a month until product ships, and DFG is working like crazy to make sure that happens.

All the best guys. Come Jan. 16th (or hopefully sooner) there should be some concrete proof one way or the other.

[Hellebore]

i don't really think it matters one way or the other. But i wouldn't preorder a product untried from a new company, regardless of any histoy.

This isn't a kickstarter project where you pledge money to help get it off the ground. Thus one assumes the miniatures will be coming out whether there is money from preorders or not.

Which means preordering seems particularly pointless.

Hellebore

[scarletsquig]

I am a bit frustrated because unfortunately I don't know how to add to my credibility much until release.

I wouldn't worry about it, mantic gets this exact same criticism all the time when it puts stuff up for pre-order without pics, *despite* having a solid 2-year track record of always hitting release dates on time.

Internet will complain regardless, best thing to do with people online is to focus on reasonable issues from potential customers and ignore any comments where you get the feeling that the poster is making an attack. It's all you really can do at the end of the day, there's nothing you can do to ditch the WGF baggage, but given time, you should be able to prove that the new company is in fact totally different and that the issues with WGF were down to the logistical nightmare of the overseas production.

It's not the sort of thing that will hurt your bottom line, so you're better off not getting drawn into it and focusing on more sincere and levelled feedback about stuff that does actually matter (price of the models, how good do the models look, this are the 2 things that people IRL actually care about). The signal-to-noise level of the internet can be a pain at times, I make online games for a living, where it's kind of a running joke for us game developers to count how many death threats we've collected from people posting comments online... it's all worthwhile for that 1-in-100 comment that offers some genuinely good feedback and solid advice for improvements.

Good luck! As it stands, I won't be buying any of the USMC models because the digital sculpting is of a standard that I consider to be low, but it's great to see more real budget options and competition/ variety in the market, and I look forward to seeing what you make in future, the heavy exosuit concepts look amazing, and I can see myself getting some of those if the sculpt quality is of a good standard. Almost no-one makes sci-fi plastics, so it's great to see new ventures and startups in this area, especially considering how you're seperate from the whole sluggish Renedra release issues that all the UK-based companies are suffering from currently.

[AlexHolker]

I wouldn't worry about it, mantic gets this exact same criticism all the time when it puts stuff up for pre-order without pics, *despite* having a solid 2-year track record of always hitting release dates on time.

The reason Mantic got flak for their Warpath models is because they were not as advertised. We were explicitly told that they weren't just going to be conversion kits for the KoW models, but that's precisely what was delivered - a bunch of fantasy models with sci-fi heads and arms.

[Gallahad]

Thanks for the feedback guys. Like I say, I just hope that once there is convincing evidence of physical product, that people give DFG a shot.

I saw some more renders last night of an upcoming box set that is getting finalized for tooling. People are going to love it. I hate to be a tease, and I will show off stuff as soon as I can, but these guys are going to be awesome in plastic.

[GomezAddams]

the issues with WGF were down to the logistical nightmare of the overseas production.

From what I read, the problems were clearly financial. They were selling product they didn't have - big no no, in any industry.

The new team seem to be working out of a warehouse based in America, and aren't having any difficulties at all. The only complaints I've head so far have been sculpting quality which has improved over the last few sets. Still not great but hey.

They can follow Gomez's thoughts about fake molds, fake product, fake company

...

I did not say the mold shown was fake. I said it wasn't anything to do with the production of the figures and you agreed.
I never said that the product was fake. I clearly stated that we had yet to see any product. What we have seen is renders (which, whilst lovely, no one will buy) and a test print painted up.
As for the company, I haven't said it was fake. I may have said things related to the people running the company due to the history with WGF but thats a seperate point. Defiance set up pretty quickly after WGF was taken over, and there making the same moves they did when they were part of WGF and they had problems. Most people take a step back, give it time, and learn from there mistakes. I don't think Defiance has, and I think in the next week or two were going to hear one excuse or another - as that again, is exactly what happened last time...

The reason Mantic got flak for their Warpath models is because they were not as advertised.

Indeed. I said that straight of the bat based on the artwork and a lot of people shouted me down. I'm glad to have been proven right, and I'm glad to see Mantic now moving pretty rapidly to meet the response of the customers. Lets hope the price matches.

Finally, because posting in this thread could turn into a flame war, I'd like to point out that everything I've posted I've posted with the evidence to back it up.

Its a new company, times are tight, don't buy something til you've seen the plastic frames of the actual product.

[Darsc Zacal]

Its a new company, times are tight, don't buy something til you've seen the plastic frames of the actual product.

I think this pretty much sums up the thread. And it's good advice as well.

I doubt much more can, or probably should, be said at the moment.

[Gallahad]

I did not say the mold shown was fake. I said it wasn't anything to do with the production of the figures and you agreed.
I never said that the product was fake. I clearly stated that we had yet to see any product. What we have seen is renders (which, whilst lovely, no one will buy) and a test print painted up.

I apologize then. Here are some of the things you said in reference to the Marine release that led me astray:

I'll be incredibly surprised if they do.

...

Those other bits you mentioned are fairly negliable. It doesn't prove that the molds been cut, only that they've paid shapeways for a print of a mold for a gun...

I'll have a hard time believing anything actually exists...

Your insistence that the mold I saw is a 3D print from shapeways, as opposed to some physical evidence that they actually have mold cutting ability, coupled with your oft stated claim that you doubt DFG will be able to deliver the product on time or at all was erroneously interpreted as your belief that DFG is a fake company, with no ability to cut real production molds, or deliver product.

I think that cutting a test mold with a new manufacturer does have something to do with the production of the USMC (especially when said manufacturer is the one cutting the mold for the Marines). All I said was that the test mold was not a part of the USMC master mold, not that it had nothing to do with the production of the figures.

I am not being facetious, I do honestly apologize for misinterpreting your statements about DFG. Forum posts are not the best way to communicate. As regards to posting up everything with proof: proof on the internet is purely a matter of he said, she said. (Or in this case, he said, he said!)

(I also hope people unaware of the history also take your repeated posts about WGF with a grain of salt. You have made a lot of claims that for the record, I don't agree with, but don't want to rehash here. If anybody wants my opinion on the new v old WGF and how the change happened, I would be happy to discuss it someplace else.)

[Erazmus_M_Wattle]

I'm not overly wowed by the painted test print I'm afraid. It's quite nicely done but nothing we haven't seen before. Perhaps a little to generic scifi. They remind me of AT-43 or starship troopers with an alien vibe.

I'm still interested to see what the hardsuits are like though.

[Gallahad]

I'm really excited by the Hardsuit too. I really like the Maschinen Krieger vibe it has going.

[lord marcus]

I'll wait and see. If i like them, I may buy a box.

However, if the Germans ever do get released, and they look as good as the concept art (please Gallahad don't say "they do". That would be frustrating in the extreme) then I will buy several when i have the monetary resources to do so as I could use them for a multitude of projects.

[GomezAddams]

Yeah I noticed the similarity between M.A.K suits and the hard suit. Seeing as though one company in the miniatures industry has been given a slap on the wrists for using the same design, I'd be surprised if it stays the same.

And because I can't resist...

Your insistence that the mold I saw is a 3D print from shapeways, as opposed to some physical evidence that they actually have mold cutting ability, coupled with your oft stated claim that you doubt DFG will be able to deliver the product on time or at all was erroneously interpreted as your belief that DFG is a fake company, with no ability to cut real production molds, or deliver product.

See thats putting 2 and 2 together to make 5.

If your designing in CAD, it doesn't really make any difference how you make your molds. I hadn't even considered it to be a 3d print until this discussion and now, to me, it seems like a logical way. Theres obviously a limit to the size of the model you can make, but if you can get a good printer then... yeah, it seems logical. I wouldn't be surprised if this is how GW are producing there single sprue figures.

I have stated several times they might not be able to deliver the product on time, or at all, due to there past history. You have to accept the fact that this has been a factor of there history, and it won't just be me who'll bring that fact up. I'd be more inclined to give them a chance if I didn't see so many things that were wrong when they ran WGF cropping up again (pre-orders with few pictures, mostly renders, only one figure to sell the product).

As for being a fake company no, thats entirely different. I stated that they were using pre-orders to pay for the tooling of the molds. They clearly exist as a company, to what extent that is I don't know. But as they had to sell for investment last time I doubt anyones taking a full time wage from defiance and if they are, there will again be problems.

[Zond]

So when are we going to see these sprue pictures?

[Gallahad]

My best guess is that it won't be this week, but next. However, the holidays could interfere with that. Tooling takes a long time to do well (hence the high cost), and exactly when it will be done to production level is hard to predict.