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Thread: Defiance Games - Alien Wars

  1. #261

    Re: Defiance Games - Alien Wars

    Quote Originally Posted by strewart View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I like seeing previews a month, maybe even a couple of months in advance, and I really think that is a decent timeframe to show something.
    I enjoy previews as well. On paper they're a very good thing, but they can occasionally be misused and backfire, as we're seeing here. As you said, the preview images were too frequent, repetitive and unflattering. It's one thing to present concept art and digital renders of what customers can look forward to, and it can even be productive to look at feedback and take things back to the drawing board (like Alex said), but it's another thing entirely to make claims of superiority and innovation and, months later, present something that is of debatable quality. DFG got overexcited with their initial support, and took their previews too far. That in part is what has brought on so much contention to this release.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexHolker View Post
    I think it's a lot easier than that: Defiance has to stop misleading its fanbase. If they know they can't meet a deadline, they should tell their creditors instead of waiting until the deadline has come and gone before they admit there's a problem. And when they post some really nice concept art, Tim needs to make sure he doesn't take liberties with the design that ruin the look.
    I agree. While I don't think this has been anything malicious on DFG's part, I also think that they've been very misleading to their customers. I have no idea if they have any major investors, but in a sense a lot of their customers have invested money, interest, and for some even loyalty to the success of this new company, and that deserves some amount of information. I don't know what private announcements DFG has made about production status of the USMC, but their public announcements have been very telling. As I see it, much of what DFG has presented to the public has been motivated by good intentions and a desire to keep everyone informed. This is especially obvious because everyone has been screaming for information. However, DFG hasn't shown much wisdom in exactly what information they provide, or how much is prudent. They've shown us digital renders of the USMC, and when they ran out of stuff to show us about the marines, they've shown us what they have of other sets. They're trying to buy credit on the only collateral they have: ideas. Whether or not the ideas are worth banking on in the first place is up for debate, but there are those who are speaking out in favor of what they've seen so far, so DFG can at least count on some sales (hopefully beyond the initial pre-orders). With any luck, they'll learn from this rocky start and make less mistakes in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexHolker View Post
    That second point is also why I think the early renders are still essential. Without the opportunity to tell DFG to go back and fix their work we'd have these, these and these as DFG's first kits.
    Would we have those? Would we? Say DFG had ignored all the feedback they got, or didn't even provide images to get feedback in the first place? Say they had released their sets just as those early sets indicate. If people didn't like them would they buy them? Or would they have gone somewhere else to get futuristic soldiers and killer bugs? That's the bottom line, really, and I think where DFG has kind of been tripping itself up. In an effort to cater to potential customers they've made changes, and some of them for the better, but in the process they've also tipped so much of their hand that they're now seen as unprofessional. They need to reevaluate their business model to ensure that they don't make the same mistakes in the future. Either they follow the dictates of the mob (because that's how we as the screaming masses have generally been behaving) or they realize that "haters are gonna hate," make what they damn well please and hope that the sets they design ultimately sell. Any balance in between is extremely delicate, and DFG just hasn't reached it yet, if they ever will.

    Quote Originally Posted by emperorpenguin View Post
    But that last pic IS their first kit. They look ok but hate the helmets and don't like the quasi-bullpup gun
    An important point, and one that shows that even though DFG may be listening to feedback from Teh Interwebz, they haven't been the most adept at implementing it. They just aren't showing what they need to in order to appease the masses.

  2. #262
    Chapter Master emperorpenguin's Avatar
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    Re: Defiance Games - Alien Wars

    Quote Originally Posted by vashknives View Post
    Either they follow the dictates of the mob (because that's how we as the screaming masses have generally been behaving) or they realize that "haters are gonna hate," make what they damn well please and hope that the sets they design ultimately sell. Any balance in between is extremely delicate, and DFG just hasn't reached it yet, if they ever will..
    This was the problem with their Greatcoat troops and Liberty & Union projects back when they were Wargames Factory. If you allow the community too much say you'll get something that pleases no-one. "A camel is a horse designed by a committee" as they say.

  3. #263

    Re: Defiance Games - Alien Wars


  4. #264
    Chapter Master GomezAddams's Avatar
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    Re: Defiance Games - Alien Wars

    And some nice big pictures from frothers via dakka (about half way down)

    http://www.frothersunite.com/phpBB2/...589&start=2180
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  5. #265
    Chapter Master lord marcus's Avatar
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    Re: Defiance Games - Alien Wars

    Very soft detail on those.

  6. #266
    Chapter Master Whitwort Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Re: Defiance Games - Alien Wars

    About what I expected, to be honest - I'd say they're more or less on par with most WGF models. If I needed some generic sci fi marines I would definitely consider getting these if they were comparably priced, but they're nearly twice as much per figure.
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  7. #267
    Chapter Master lord marcus's Avatar
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    Re: Defiance Games - Alien Wars

    Especially if you count in WGF's multibox deals.

  8. #268

    Re: Defiance Games - Alien Wars

    I think you need to check your math, there.

    WGF shock troopers are $19.95 for a box of 18, working out to about $1.11 each, or $1.00 each if you order 3 or 7 boxes. DG Marines are $29.95 for a box of 24, which is $1.25 each. Both can be compared to plastic Imperial Guard, which are $2.90 each.
    Last edited by Xeno_RG; 11-04-2012 at 03:40.

  9. #269
    Chapter Master Apologist's Avatar
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    Re: Defiance Games - Alien Wars

    Looking at the finished pieces, I rather like them. While some of the detail appears a little soft to me, and there are design decisions I'm not fond of, such as the microphone covering the mouth; the poses look good. This should mean a good appearance on the tabletop for the army, which is an important consideration for platoon-level games.

    The price seems fair to me – quality comparisons can be made to the Mantic figures (which I also rather like), and they're slightly cheaper than them. Given that Mantic's laudable philosophy is 'affordable big games', that's a nice coup.

    Someone mentioned on Tabletop Gaming News that the figures we're starting to see are early casts, which might account for some of the softness. I'm slightly sceptical about that, personally, but it's worth bearing in mind before making a final decision.

    Personally, I'm far more interested in the aliens of 'Alien War', but – awful timing aside – these seem like a solid debut effort, with plenty of options, customisability and decent quality at an affordable price.
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  10. #270

    Re: Defiance Games - Alien Wars

    I've got a box of Mantic's Corporation troops, and going by those photos on Frothers (including the later ones) the quality is not even close!

    Defiance games is just making the same mistakes they made with Wargames Factory - listening to the peanut gallery, single releases then moving on to other factions, and boasting how great there product is and then producing tat.

    Stick a fork in them, they're done!

  11. #271
    Chaplain StygianBeach's Avatar
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    Re: Defiance Games - Alien Wars

    Looks okay. The detail on the Mantic figures looks much better defined in comparison though.
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  12. #272
    Chapter Master Whitwort Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Re: Defiance Games - Alien Wars

    Quote Originally Posted by Xeno_RG View Post
    I think you need to check your math, there.

    WGF shock troopers are $19.95 for a box of 18, working out to about $1.11 each, or $1.00 each if you order 3 or 7 boxes. DG Marines are $29.95 for a box of 24, which is $1.25 each. Both can be compared to plastic Imperial Guard, which are $2.90 each.
    :facepalm:

    Ah fair enough - I was basing it on the price of the WGF sets I've bought (Vikings, Celts, and Numidians). Obviously I should have used those shock troopers as a basis for comparison instead. I was never really interested in the shock troops so I never bothered looking at their prices. They don't seem like a particularly great deal either. Not to give the impression that the USMC are awfully overpriced, just not cheap enough to incentivize me to get them, as someone with a passing interest.
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  13. #273

    Re: Defiance Games - Alien Wars

    Well, if 15 year old Em-4 ABS plastic troopers have sharper and more plentiful detail (not to mention basic human anatomy done right)) than "state of the art modern miniature making technology" Defiance USMC, I'm pretty sure there is something amiss.

  14. #274
    Chapter Master Darsc Zacal's Avatar
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    Re: Defiance Games - Alien Wars

    Quote Originally Posted by Don_Silvarro View Post
    Well, if 15 year old Em-4 ABS plastic troopers have sharper and more plentiful detail (not to mention basic human anatomy done right)) than "state of the art modern miniature making technology" Defiance USMC, I'm pretty sure there is something amiss.

    I wonder how much that has to do with designing the mini on computer rather than traditionally sculpting a 3up. Then of course, as I understand was done, using a plastic moldmaker with no previous experience casting finely detailed miniatures probably didn't help either.

  15. #275

    Re: Defiance Games - Alien Wars

    Quote Originally Posted by Darsc Zacal View Post
    I wonder how much that has to do with designing the mini on computer rather than traditionally sculpting a 3up.
    Not much. From what I understand Games Workshop does most of their plastic kits digitally nowadays. Spartan Games does CAD design exclusively, and they make the most detailed models I have ever seen since I started wargaming in the mid 90's:

    http://www.thenode.pl/images/stories...ystopian/6.jpg

    That's their Kingdom of Britannia battleship, with my grubby thumb to illustrate how fine the detailwork is. And that model was released in 2010. Their newer stuff is even better.
    Last edited by Don_Silvarro; 11-04-2012 at 20:11.

  16. #276
    Chapter Master Darsc Zacal's Avatar
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    Re: Defiance Games - Alien Wars

    But wasn't CAD created primarily for geometric objects? Which is why it has worked so well with designing vehicles all these years, but less well with organic objects?

    I know that CAD programming has evolved quite a bit, to the point where designing organics have been feasible for the last number of years, but it's my understanding there is still quite a steep learning curve to use it effectively. Something that designers at GW look to have achieved, but I wonder how many others in the hobby industry have reached that same level yet.

  17. #277
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    Re: Defiance Games - Alien Wars

    CAD is in reference to the larger as to what is commonly known as CAD programs.

    3D design software varies from specifically designed for inorganic machine design (something like AutoCAD) to something which has been purpose built to deal with organic shapes (something like ZBrush). Although the old understanding of CAD was computer aided drafting, the newer interpretation is design - which is less restrictive in terms of the use.

    Regarding these versus the EM4 plastics, it is entirely the user. Having a 3up isn't as important as understanding the limitations of your machine shop as well as realizing what needs to be accentuated in order to show up well on a miniature. A pant pocket might only be 2 mm thick - in miniature to scale it would be less than 0.04 mm thick, something that would barely show up on the figure with the best of machining and be hidden under a coat of primer. In this regard, I think it is something of a hindrance that the sculptor is a traditional sculptor who has limited miniature experience in the past.

    Regarding the learning curve - all depends. Someone who is artistically gifted with a modicum of technical acumen will pick it up quite fast. Someone who is lacking in one or the other will of course have more issues. In my experience it was easier to learn the ins and outs of 3D design than it was to work with green stuff and similar materials. A lot of that is due to not having to wait for things to cure and the like so you could complete an entire figure in one sitting and learn from those mistakes as opposed to having to wait hours between steps for your putty to cure.

  18. #278

    Re: Defiance Games - Alien Wars

    Quote Originally Posted by Darsc Zacal View Post
    But wasn't CAD created primarily for geometric objects? Which is why it has worked so well with designing vehicles all these years, but less well with organic objects?

    I know that CAD programming has evolved quite a bit, to the point where designing organics have been feasible for the last number of years, but it's my understanding there is still quite a steep learning curve to use it effectively. Something that designers at GW look to have achieved, but I wonder how many others in the hobby industry have reached that same level yet.
    That might have been the case a few years ago. CAD is viable for any type of job nowadays. It's the same thing with plastic vs. metal - some people will tell you that it's impossible to have the same amount and quality of detail with plastic models as you have with metal. While that was true a decade ago, moulding technology made leaps and bounds since then and it's simply not true now.

    Case in point: Raging Heroes uses CAD for their stuff pretty extensively, if not exclusively. They mostly do organic shapes, and pretty much nail it every time (I don't like the aesthetic choices of their models, but from a technical standpoint they are superb). They do models that are are very delicate and 'swirly' with lots of detail. And I wouldn't call them one of the 'big boys' on the market, so it's not like there is some ancient secret of CAD design that is prohibitively expensive and requires years of rigorous training to obtain (que superhero training montage).

    Besides, the supposedly 'hard' and 'sharp' inorganic parts on those marines (armor, reinforced boots, weapons to a lesser degree) look just as soft, blobby and melted as everything else. So yeah...

  19. #279

    Re: Defiance Games - Alien Wars

    So. Did anyone actually get their products? (Yes I know the website has been stating "being shipped" for quite some days now, but that is not my question)

  20. #280
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    Re: Defiance Games - Alien Wars

    My wife said my boxes arrived Wednesday. She also said the faces, hands, and weapons are quite nice, they are larger than Perry and Victrix and are scaled better than GW.
    She likes the difference in scaling when compared to my crimson fist marines, as the astartes fellows look proper herculean in comparison.
    I won't be using them in 40k, I've already have rides for them courtesy of ebble labs. Scifi skirmish.for them...now I just have to wait for the German sets!

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