Smallest warp capable imperial/chaos spacecraft

[MarcoSkoll]

You know the advantage you have? You are the GM! Your universe....you can darn well make a small warp capable vessel up.

That's not really true though, is it? It wouldn't be a 40k RPG if you didn't maintain the setting. Sure, you can write your own pieces of it, but they should fit within the setting's aesthetic and any diversions from published material should be kept to a bare minimum.

Introducing Deus Ex Machinae in the form of "It's advanced tech that the Mechanicus forget they have/from a non-Imperial world/built from a fully working STC we found behind the shed the other day"... it's just bad GMing. If you don't like the setting, why are you RPing in it?

It does break the suspension of disbelief somewhat if a small group of aspiring weirdos manage to summon up the resources to get a ship on a scale that even the highest powers of the Inquisition and Mechanicus have managed to build but a scarce handful of times in ten millennia.

At the very least, I'd suggest asking the players (or even the characters) about what they'd like to do. If they like the idea of having a huge warship crewed by the damned, then it seems daft for them to have a tiny one they'd be very, very, very unlikely to.

[Idaan]

Introducing Deus Ex Machinae in the form of "It's advanced tech that the Mechanicus forget they have/from a non-Imperial world/built from a fully working STC we found behind the shed the other day"... it's just bad GMing.

No it's not. By default Black Crusade is set beyond the Imperium, in a Warp storm inhabited by people who never saw the Emperor's light and Imperial exiles like too forward-thinking Mechanicus. The Vortex is flush with Chaos influence and full of ruins of ancient Xenos civilisations. Its people, and probably the PCs will have no qualms about using AIs, binding daemons or trading with Xenos. In fact, the sorcerers of Q'sal are explicitly mentioned in the book to be able to make starships not beholden to the laws of physics. The 1km rule applies to Imperial technology (and even then not without exceptions), and OPs characters aren't Imperial.

[MarcoSkoll]

The 1km rule applies to Imperial technology (and even then not without exceptions), and OPs characters aren't Imperial.

Which isn't much of an excuse. If there is any faction that could be considered the masters of warp transit, it would be the Imperium.

And, Imperium or not, there is hardly a plethora of tiny warp capable ships out there. Almost any that do exist are a very rare exception to the rule that do not make a good precedent.
These are characters who are barely starting out on their quest for infamy and immortality, so they are not exactly likely owners of such rarities. If they are to gain such a thing at all, it would be best given to them further down the line to mark their progression of notoriety.

[Monospot]

That's not really true though, is it? It wouldn't be a 40k RPG if you didn't maintain the setting. Sure, you can write your own pieces of it, but they should fit within the setting's aesthetic and any diversions from published material should be kept to a bare minimum.

Introducing Deus Ex Machinae in the form of "It's advanced tech that the Mechanicus forget they have/from a non-Imperial world/built from a fully working STC we found behind the shed the other day"... it's just bad GMing. If you don't like the setting, why are you RPing in it?

I, in fact, love the setting. However, I consider rigid adherence to fictional dogma to be both bad role playing and bad GMing. Considering that a good role playing session involves a consensual suspension of disbelief amongst all the participants, I think that being able to invest onseself into the setting to be a key goal. If that investment involves little "tweaks" to the canon, then I think that is up to the players and GM.

For example, say I wanted to use the Rogue Trader ruleset to play a space pirates campaign after the Cadian Gate falls. I'm still using the setting, but with a massive modification to the canonical universe as it currently stands. Would that be a "bad" campaign? Frankly, I think it would allow for great role playing opportunities and a lot of fun.

I disagree with pretty much the entirety of your post. The GM is, by definition, the Deus Ex Machina. If the original poster needs his PCs to have their own warp travel-capable vessel, then by golly they should have it. Fly the Jolly Roger (or the 8-pointed equivalent) and go make merry havoc on the Imperium! Its a game...how you play it is up to the players. Tournaments may have strict rules...in the basement, its up to the players involved.

[MarcoSkoll]

I'm still using the setting, but with a massive modification to the canonical universe as it currently stands.

It's a completely different change. It requires no more than an acceptance of the near inevitability of one of the Black Crusades eventually succeeding, then adding enough years to the clock. Heck, even if you decided you wanted this to be a scenario based around a former Black Crusade having succeeded, it only changes events in the setting.

Giving a lowly group of Chaos nobodies their own personal Millennium Falcon changes limits within the setting, and brings a lot of plotholes with it. If Tom, Dick and Harry (relative to Huron, Abaddon and their ilk, at least) can have such things, it begs the question of why said head honchos haven't ruthlessly exploited these options.

It's the difference between alternate history and alternate physics. The universe would have survived, largely the same, if Hitler had won WWII. But it would be completely and utterly unrecognisable if the gravitational constant had been different.

Changing events: Tolerable. Changing limits: Setting-breaker.

The GM is, by definition, the Deus Ex Machina.

In one sense, yes. In the other (more common usage), no.

They're the primary force behind the plot, but that doesn't mean they're immune to pulling stuff from their backside. I should know - I do it myself all the time!

[Connor MacLeod]

If for some reason a person wants a smaller than 1 km warp capable starship, it could be done you just have to engineer some limits into it of some kind. Either a rare, lost-tech type ship (like the Inquisition use.) Or maybe to cram in the warp space capacity it gives up much in the way of combat or sublight engine performance. Maybe it needs a long time to charge up the warp engines between jumps. It could be too small to include much in the way of calculation gear and not have room for a navigator and all that important stuff.

Maybe it cannot stay long in the warp because it lacks the fuel and supplies for long voyages. Maybe the engine and the hull structure are not strong enough to endure violent passage, and it may be limited to how fast/how far it can travel without maintenance. Maybe the engine performance is much poorer compared to a regular starship due to design compromises. You could even argue it is a riskier means of conveyance than a bigger ship (weaker or less reliable Gellar fields, or maybe the engine is more temperamental.)

There's lots of ways you could work it, so long as it was kept 'balanced' for your purposes.

[MagosHereticus]

you could also simply have them using a non-warp capable intersystem transport and have them simply hitch a lift in merchant vessels when necessary and dropped of or picked up according to a contact with a merchant house (ie we are going to explore this nebula/system/space hulk, and since you have ships that pass this way every 30 days and you need to stop every so often for maintenance on your warp engines, so make a stop over near where we are exploring, pick us up and we will pay a reasonable fee) you could even have your small ship bearing a antique preimperial emergency warp reactor which allows them to jump a light year or two to escape danger but then requires extensive repairs before it's next use

[prowla]

The Novel Angels of Darkness had a 500 meter strike vessel that was warp capable. Of course its engine performance was worse compared to other craft, and given its general Astartes affiliation it probably can be smaller than usual and pull that off.

Smallest Imperial Fleet vessel that's warp-capable would be the Cobra class destroyer, which is a bit smaller than a frigate. It's given in BFG that in general the smallest destroyers are about 750 metres in length, and these smaller vessels are generally found in SM Fleets, so the DA strike vessel might be something based on the Cobra class.

Compared to real-life ships, the largest oil tankers can reach 400m+, and have a crew of 40 or so, so I'd say the skeleton crew would be 10 men for every 100 metres in length. Of course 40k ships could go well above or below this number, depending on the function, origin etc. of the ship. Of course these numbers only apply to Imperial Fleet vessels, a smaller organization might have smaller ships for special purposes, especially the renegade factions.

Then again, when GMing, the party doesn't need a whole ship for themselves, but a favor from someone who owns the ship.

[Dag0net]

Not a new problem, for rpging, The above solutions to simply have them hitch a ride or have an npc benefactor/patron provide them with temporary transport, or have them stowaway would normally be most appropriate.

Having said that I recall two occurences, one from IA, one from Rogue Trader where warp travel has been performed by implicitly or explicitly single man vessels. But if they were in any way common the w40k universe wouldn't be what it is.

[Connor MacLeod]

Cobra destroyers are 1.5 km long, and Sword Frigates are like 1.6 km (Firestorms are 1.8, because of the lance armament they have in the prow.) The difference in sizes between a cobra and a Sword is trivial, but its far bigger than the 500 m strike vessel in Angels of Darkness too.

[Firaxin]

Your protagonists aren't Imperial drones? Start them off as prisoners in an Inquisitorial interrogation/isolation complex. At first, none of them know/trust each other, but they'll have to work together to make an escape attempt. Victory Condition: they reach the landing platform and find a small warp-capable super-rare Inquisitorial vessel, most likely of GAoT origin. Characters steal it and are on their merry way. Ta-dah!

[RBLFunk]

Smallest Imperial Fleet vessel that's warp-capable would be the Cobra class destroyer, which is a bit smaller than a frigate. It's given in BFG that in general the smallest destroyers are about 750 metres in length, and these smaller vessels are generally found in SM Fleets, so the DA strike vessel might be something based on the Cobra class.

Not addressing you specifically Prowla, just quoting you as a statement of what is supposed to be the canonical precedent.

The example/s for the established minimum size of warp-capable ships seem to be military in nature.

If you tell me 'the minimum size for a warp-capable vessel is this warship', hang on, but that's a warship.

Destroyers or frigates aren't designed to carry small or even large numbers of people from one place to another, they're designed to carry a lot of armour, sensors and weaponry from one place to another, along with the large numbers of people required to operate and maintain these systems.

If we take a destroyer, deduct the overwhelming majority of its weapons, sensors, armour, associated personnel, quarters and supplies, we are left with a warp-capable ship with a minimum of weaponry, sensors, armour, associated personnel, quarters and supplies, that is a fraction of the size of the warship.

Sailships are an often used analogy for 40K spacefairing. As an example from the age of sail we have fluyts, which were still large ships but optimised carrying large quantities of cargo, not fighting. This typically reduced the crew compliment to a third of that of a heavily armed ship of similar displacement.
If you eliminate the need for cargo you can make a sailship small enough to be crewed by a single person, capable of circumnavigating the planet, a 40,000km journey, though not necessarily non-stop.

If a writer states that the smallest warp-capable vessels the Imperium has are about a kilometre long, the examples of which we have are warships, sorry writer, you've made a poor contribution to the setting and I'm not going to take what you have said seriously.

I haven't read the Jaq Draco book in a long time, but the impression I got was that his ship was fairly equivalent to the millennium falcon, and I don't remember it being indicated as particularly noteworthy for its size or small crew compliment.

[prowla]

Sailships are an often used analogy for 40K spacefairing. As an example from the age of sail we have fluyts, which were still large ships but optimised carrying large quantities of cargo, not fighting. This typically reduced the crew compliment to a third of that of a heavily armed ship of similar displacement.
If you eliminate the need for cargo you can make a sailship small enough to be crewed by a single person, capable of circumnavigating the planet, a 40,000km journey, though not necessarily non-stop.

It's a good point to make, military ship usually being of larger size. I agree that smallest warp-going ships are probably merchant vessels.

However, a sailship might not the best analogy here. A better one would be an 1800's ocean-going steam-powered vessel with it's large engine room. Warp-capable ships need a large amount of equipment to enter the Warp and protect themselves against it, so the size is actually limited by the large engine room, and the amount of people to maintain the technology.

It's also my understanding that during 1800s, minimum-size ocean-going steam ships were rare, even though you had a lot of wealthy people who could afford one. It was simply a lot cheaper and easier to catch a freighter when you wanted to make a week-long trip across the Atlantic. Many large freighters did and actually still do have quality guest rooms and dining facilities for exactly this purpose - you can actually buy a trip aboard one.

Imperium or the merchant houses don't actually have a shortage of resources or men to build ships, so it makes more sense to build large, multi-task vessels. One of them can always be slaved to the Imperial agents silently, or used to transport the important members of the merchant family, and then return to it's normal duties.

These are the reasons I believe there are very few small warp-going ships in 40k.

The simplest way IMO for a GM to transport the party to another location, is to have them capture say, a merchant system shuttle, and then hitch a ride aboard a large freighter, making the freighter captain believe they're under orders from the merchant family.

[inishi]

Is there a reason for a Fury Interceptor to have a navigator as a crew member ( from the lexicanum page ) if it isn't warp capable. I know the lexicanum isnt completely reliable, but this has been bugging me and I wanted to see if anyone could clear it up.

[RBLFunk]

Is it a navigator or a navigator?

[Charax]

I've spent about a decade arguing against small warp-capable ships (it crops up a LOT in the background of people's Inquisitor characters), and the conclusion I've reached is people should do whatever the hell they want. if they really want a star-wars-esque small ship that can cross the galaxy then they'll ignore any source you shove under their noses saying it won't work, even if that source has been approved by GW themselves.

Same goes for writers, they'll have their millennium falcon analogues because they're cool and easy to write even if the setting declares that you need a crew of thousands and a km-long ship to house the necessary engines and gellar field generators and power systems necessary to punch a hole in reality itself and take a chunk of the universe with you to protect against the gods and their minions whose realm you're casually strolling through.

It strikes me as rather pointless even having these discussions so long as people roll out arguments like "We're going to arbitrarily ignore all material from this 40K universe RPG specifically designed to give more depth to space travel and starships and instead overrule it with a one-line mention by a writer whose main concern is narrative convenience rather than technical accuracy" and "It's your universe, do what you want".

[prowla]

Is there a reason for a Fury Interceptor to have a navigator as a crew member ( from the lexicanum page ) if it isn't warp capable. I know the lexicanum isnt completely reliable, but this has been bugging me and I wanted to see if anyone could clear it up.

It's a co-pilot, I'd say. Faustus-class interceptors are long-range patrol boats, and even they don't have Navigators aboard. Further, Navigators are a rare and valuable members of powerful families, no chance that there would be a bunch of them flying simple fighters around

[Darnok]

I'd argue that it may me much more interesting for a GM to get his group to use not their own ship. The possibilities when they try to hire a passage on another ship, or even try to sneak onto one... I would say that is morerewarding than just "okay, you enter your ship - whoosh - welcome to planet XY".

[inishi]

This is what I thought, but it's been bugging me. Apparently I struck a nerve unintentionally, im clearly not as well read as most when it comes to 40k. To be honest, im relatively new to this and haven't read very much.

[Sai-Lauren]

Yes. And I never claimed that there are no smaller vessels, just that it's the general rule, and a 100m long warp capable ship should always be treated as something remarkable.

I'd agree there - 1000m length is going to be about as small as you can get whilst still maintaining a decent amount of cargo space.

IMO, you can have smaller, but they're going to be for very, very specialised purposes - fast couriers designed to carry information to sensitive to trust to astropaths, or small valuable goods or a couple of people from one system to another. Mostly unarmed, relying on speed and stealth to get past hostiles, likely owned by the richer mercantile corporations, the Navigator houses and various Administratum and other official bodies. If a bunch of scruffy adventurers walk off the boarding ramp, officials are going to start asking very detailed questions.

Personally, I'd go down to 300-400m long, 100m beam and 50m height for the absolute minimum dimensions for a warp capable vessel (which is about the size of the Nostromo from Alien).

Although an alternative is a non-warp capable vessel that can piggy back - either from a larger freighter or even a specialised warp-tug.

And while you say "Space Cathedral", I say "Space is big. REALLY big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mindbogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space".
Douglas Adams aside, a spaceship, even one a mile long, has a lot of space to not be noticed in.

It also has a lot of important systems taking up most of that space - even a freighter needs armouring against micro-meteorites and radiation, fuel and engines will take up a considerable amount, and nearly all of what's left will be cargo space to maximise profitability. The crew's probably double occupying cabins - if not outright hot bunking or someone throwing down a bedroll in between the cargo containers in the hold just to get themselves some space.

If someone can fill two roles, then they're a valuable commodity for any captain.