next time you are going to buy a car, you get it without wheels and paint. but you get some wheels and spraypaints.
its really easy. do it yourself.
thats what you paid for.. or maybe it isnt?
next time you are going to buy a car, you get it without wheels and paint. but you get some wheels and spraypaints.
its really easy. do it yourself.
thats what you paid for.. or maybe it isnt?
"And the greatest of them all are the Ultramarines."
Thats a Fact.
Liberarting more Worlds than any other Legion while suffering fewer casualties than any other Legion.
Each member of the Ultramarines Honour Guard has earnt more commendations and glories in a lifetimes service than a whole company of Space Marines from any other Chapter.
Warhammer 40K Tournament Matches with Ultramarines - W:191/L:0/D:0
That's a pretty bad analogy.Originally Posted by Gondrak
Bends in resin tend to be easy fixes - more akin to having to wash a car or change the oil, it's part of the maintenance of resin. If you don't want to deal with that, don't buy resin - similarly, don't buy a car, use public transit instead, etc.
If you buy a car without wheels and paint...well, that's pretty obvious and it shouldn't take you by surprise. You only have a case if you bought the car blind (which is, I'm sure most would agree, insane) and it wasn't noted that the car requires paint and wheels. Models are a bit like a car without wheels and paint...you don't get glue and paint included with most model purchases.
A bent resin model is servicable, as is a wheel-less car. However, if you don't want to do the work or are otherwise incapable of doing the work, you should be able to return the purchase for a refund.
...and a little help comes in a little glass vial in a gun pressed against her anatomy...
You can always file off your nipples, it's easily done.
You would if it was a kit car - A nice Dutton (do they still make them?)
I'm sorry but if you're expecting people to be outraged on your behalf, you'll be waiting quite a long time. I had a FW part that was too big for any of the dishes or bowls I owned, do you know how I fixed that issue? I spent 80 pence on a 2 litre tub of "value" ice cream and emptied the crappy ice cream into the bin; problem solved, even titan parts can be fully immersed in it. Sometimes resin models go together like a dream, sometimes they require substantial preparatory work; if you're going to throw a "customarz r alwez rite!" hissy fit when the latter happens, you shouldn't be buying resin models. All, ALL of the things you are moaning about, and acting like FW treated you poorly over, ALL of them are explained and solutions given in the PDF that FW have had on their website pretty much since its inception.Well it might be dumping an old threat. I just wanted to update everyone with how it settled. The order was made around 5-7th december. Anyway, the order made it just in time for Christmas as I've noted before.
I wrote to Forgeworld right away about these issues, the first without picture, and a second time with pictures. A reply came after the second email, suggesting like everyone here to clean the model and use hot water. Albeit I tried, I first of all didn't have a bowl big enough with a flat surface to cover the larger parts, but second of all it stroke me that I should not be the one spending several days of working hours to fix this warping.
So I replied I would like to have the parts replaced. I sent 10 emails trying to explain this, over four months. In the end i blantly stated "How do I get my money back". And they did not reply a single time. Order number, previous answer, pictures was all included in all of the emails. Honestly I feel cheated, their first mail being some sort of thing to make me go away? I don't know. Anyway, my only option was to drive 30min to my local GW. I did this two times, as the first was a saturday or sunday I believe, hence FW's support had closed. Both of the times and different staff absolutly agreed it was outrageous of Forgeworld. I showed the model, and the emails, and the mail Forgeworld has sent. In the end, I was told GW could not help me returning the product, and I had to go home and pay for the order to be sent back to Forgeworld in UK.
So this is where it is now, after five months of attempted communication FW has got a package and I hope they will return the money. In the end, it has nearly cost me more to return the model of wasted time and travel/postage expenses, and time is not something I got much of sadly. So there is is, I'm just so pissed at how FW has turned out to be. They were so great 5 years ago. Also a second thing, god their finecast resin is terrible. I got a company banner from those scorpions from one of those bits sites, and it it's just as bad as GWs
I honestly don't get this kind of stuff; if some numpty parent comes into GW and buys a box of Marines for little timmie, then comes back in months later and demands their money back because you have to clean, scrape, assemble, and paint them, they'd be laughed into the street, but when someone -especially someone who has apparently bought from FW before and so should be well aware- buys a resin mini and then doesn't want to spend an hour bending parts or toothbrush-scrubbing, they expect everyone to reinforce their mistaken impression that they've suffered a massive injustice
In this case, the customer is most definitely not right.
Rarely seen such rubbish, Yodhrin. If he feels like the product doesn't match his expectations, for *whatever* reason, he *always* may ask for replacement of refund. No matter what you think about it, it is his right to do so. Apart of that I wonder how exactly you are able to judge upon him. It may only be 80 cent, but he shouldn't even need to *bother* to waste time on going to buy anything or spend time on fixing it. He may, but he doesn't need to.
The worst thing here isn't that he wants to return it (wtf, it is his damn right to!), it is about Forge World not replying to any of his 10 (!!!) emails over quarter a year which is clearly unacceptable.
Last edited by Hendarion; 25-04-2012 at 20:21.
Eldar - Fear The Rainbow!
My Eldar Painting Log (including Revenant/Phantom/Super Heavies) or direct gallery - random selection of 16 years painting Eldar
Jes Goodwin once said he doesn't like the word "fluff". Thus I will call it "lore" instead.
Being outraged on my behalf is a rubbish interpetation of the point I have tried to make. i am sorry, that your point of view is that a company can directly ignore a customer. You are obiviously a veteran and done a lot of forgeworlding too. But my vulcan mega bolter was not bent 45 degree and my torso on my titan did not have the same flat surface as a corrugated cardboard. Actually i dont see why you don't see my real complaint. Or the actual reason to debate.I'm sorry but if you're expecting people to be outraged on your behalf, you'll be waiting quite a long time. I had a FW part that was too big for any of the dishes or bowls I owned, do you know how I fixed that issue? I spent 80 pence on a 2 litre tub of "value" ice cream and emptied the crappy ice cream into the bin; problem solved, even titan parts can be fully immersed in it. Sometimes resin models go together like a dream, sometimes they require substantial preparatory work; if you're going to throw a "customarz r alwez rite!" hissy fit when the latter happens, you shouldn't be buying resin models. All, ALL of the things you are moaning about, and acting like FW treated you poorly over, ALL of them are explained and solutions given in the PDF that FW have had on their website pretty much since its inception.
I honestly don't get this kind of stuff; if some numpty parent comes into GW and buys a box of Marines for little timmie, then comes back in months later and demands their money back because you have to clean, scrape, assemble, and paint them, they'd be laughed into the street, but when someone -especially someone who has apparently bought from FW before and so should be well aware- buys a resin mini and then doesn't want to spend an hour bending parts or toothbrush-scrubbing, they expect everyone to reinforce their mistaken impression that they've suffered a massive injustice
In this case, the customer is most definitely not right.
Though fact is, FW is getting more and more common. Buy a tanatlus and see. Actually i'd like to hear from people who did. It deserves a debate. We know gw models needs just to be glued to work fairly, to market the young. But there needs to be a limit. For me, getting the sail correct on the tantalus would have been impossible. It had simply melted to fit the way the order was packed or so. No simple one direction bending, yet you want the correct curve intended.
But to be honest, my main complaint is the service. Could have been fixed if they had replied to my third email, why were there a complete radio(email) silence and a need to contact gw several times before anything was heard from them. The store managed also sent an email to FW directly, which they did not respond or react upon either. I am truely critic, but believe me, it is with good intentions. There are things that can be improved in the way they handle customer support. Emailing should be a viable option when you basicly deliver all the information and proofs they need, especially when you get assigned/reply to an employees more direct mail (i suppose) so why ignore my answers to that email.
Last edited by Unexo; 25-04-2012 at 20:59.
Fair enough, and I'm glad they fixed it for you, but it really is quite normal. In the beginning Forgeworld marketed itself to experienced military modelers who wanted to stay in the 40k universe. We're used to rare planes and tanks only being available as short-run kits. That means resin pieces that don't fit together very well (or worse, vacuform), and high prices due to the low sales volume.
Forgeworld is going mainstream, in part because GW's prices are getting a bit close to FW's. That's the effect of moving larger volumes of stuff: more money to work with, but also higher expectations among customers who aren't just experienced modelers anymore. Older kits will still be difficult though, and even the newer stuff won't ever reach Tamiya or Hasegawa levels of easy assembly.
When I purchased my Chaos Warhound titan, after sorting out all the bits and such, I was upset to notice I was missing one toe knuckle joint. After a phone call into forgeworld they express shipped me the missing toe joint. I was very happy with the service and speed at which they got me the part. Now ... 4 years later.. the model sits assembled but unpainted.. bad on me.
Vivie
__________________
Do you have a waffle?
its not.That's a pretty bad analogy.
Bends in resin tend to be easy fixes - more akin to having to wash a car or change the oil, it's part of the maintenance of resin. If you don't want to deal with that, don't buy resin - similarly, don't buy a car, use public transit instead, etc.
If you buy a car without wheels and paint...well, that's pretty obvious and it shouldn't take you by surprise
A bent resin model is servicable, as is a wheel-less car. However, if you don't want to do the work or are otherwise incapable of doing the work, you should be able to return the purchase for a refund.
you pay for a product, doesnt matter what it is.
if forgeworld is not able to sell the stuff without damage, they should have better service, meaning every costumer can get the missing/damaged parts or his money back. or just go and put on the website and every package in big red letters "Sorry! Maybe parts are missing and maybe parts are damaged, but you are sure okay with it?!" and lets see how this goes.
the only reason, why it is, what it is (is that correct english?), is because of the bend over customers that really try to defend such hilarious crap.
"And the greatest of them all are the Ultramarines."
Thats a Fact.
Liberarting more Worlds than any other Legion while suffering fewer casualties than any other Legion.
Each member of the Ultramarines Honour Guard has earnt more commendations and glories in a lifetimes service than a whole company of Space Marines from any other Chapter.
Warhammer 40K Tournament Matches with Ultramarines - W:191/L:0/D:0
There might be a language barrier here.
Missing wheels and no paint are obvious "problems" and things people would notice instantly. Additionally, you have to buy wheels and paint to repair it.
Bends in resin are typically less obvious and often aren't noticed until assembly (though the OP's example seems pretty intense). You just need a heating mechanism and water to fix this.
In other words, I wouldn't consider a bend "damage" in most cases - it's just part of working with resin (like how getting your oil changed is part of having a car).
Order a Tantalus that shows up without the sail and you've got a "car without wheels." Order a Tantalus that shows up with a bent sail and you've got a "car that needs air in the tires". Very different (though both annoying!).
Bubbles, miscasts, missing pieces - those are all serious issues for any modeler, I'd say. Bends are only an issue for those not used to resin.
I'm in no way belittling anyone - if you don't want to reshape resin, that's your choice and it's your right to return the product. I'm simply saying that's a servicable and common "problem" even outside of GW/FW.
I think the goal of this whole thread, though, is not to draw attention to the fact that resin bends or what have you, but that Forgeworld did a dreadful job of communicating with this particular customer. They're one of the worst companies I've dealt with in terms of electronic communication. I'm told you need to call them, but this is 2012...e-mail shouldn't be ignored.
Forgeworld could probably save themselves some grief by putting a Replacement Portal on their site. Put in your order number, state what was wrong, add picture (optional), click send. Goes into a file for the customer service department to check daily. They evaluate the claim - if reasonable, ship out the replacement. If questionable, contact the customer.
I don't know - if they're that bad at communicating, they're probably under-staffed. Hiring some people would help, as would automating some mundane processes.
...and a little help comes in a little glass vial in a gun pressed against her anatomy...
You can always file off your nipples, it's easily done.
They're not always bad though. I most received answers about replacement orders within 1-2 days. That is more or less typical or even fast (if you don't compare it with instant-replies from Amazon).
Eldar - Fear The Rainbow!
My Eldar Painting Log (including Revenant/Phantom/Super Heavies) or direct gallery - random selection of 16 years painting Eldar
Jes Goodwin once said he doesn't like the word "fluff". Thus I will call it "lore" instead.
No, actually, it is NOT his right, it is merely something retailers generally do to avoid having to spend hours arguing with whingy entitled consumers who have come to believe that their rights are limitless. In fact, there are specific codified-in-law rules which describe the circumstances in which a consumer is entitled to a refund, and though they differ by region the generally boil down to the product suffering a manufacturing defect, the retailer incorrectly describing the product, or a very, VERY short window within which the customer can return an unopened purchase, typically days. As for my judging him, I've had to deal with this sort of nonsense myself working retail, and it annoyed the piss out of me, having to explain to some dimwitted idiot that no, actually, the fact you see your PC as some kind of magic internet box that lets you look at naked ladies and you wouldn't know what model graphics card you had if it bit you on the backside does NOT mean you can bring in this evidently opened PC game and return it because your machine is so old and decrepit it would have trouble running Minesweeper. And that's the level of complaint I see over and over again regarding FW.
As for wasting time; rubbish, rubbish and more, you guessed it, rubbish. Prepping miniatures is an inherent part of the process involved in turning them from little grey chunks into tabletop-worthy figures, and sometimes having to bend parts into shape is an inherent feature of miniatures cast in resin. The same properties that allow it to capture all that lovely detail mean that a few hours sat in a hot post van are enough to warp it, as are any number of other situations, and if that's something you're unwilling to deal with, then don't buy resin minis.
Finally, FW did, in fact, reply to his emails initially, pointing out things that he should have known already had he downloaded the freely available PDF on FW's website, and the remainder is hearsay on which neither you nor I can comment with any certainty whatsoever. If this was a thread about FW not replying to emails, why doesn't the first post mention that even once?
The OP responds below, and to him I say; What point have you tried to make, exactly, other than having a wee moan and reaching out to see if anyone wants to commiserate with you? There's nothing wrong with that mind, but that's what this amounts to, because the only discussion value in the topic is gone when you recognise that all the issues you sought to return(eventually) the product for are inherent qualities detailed in full on the manufacturer's website; this isn't a quality issue, none of the parts were broken or unusable after putting in a wee bit of work. You later turn it into an issue of communication, but that's not something any of us can discuss really because, and don't take this the wrong way it's simply a fact; we only have your word on the subject. If, in fact, you did send ten emails with no reply other than to the first two, and if, in fact, those emails maintained a calm and measured tone and were not the kind of screeds I regularly had to trawl through during my time in customer service purgatory, then yes FW made a booboo, but would you really be happy if you had received a nicely worded response which amounted to "we told you this might happen already on our website, we're not liable, once again here is now to prep the model properly, bye", followed by seven form-letters? Because that's the communication you would have received in the described scenario, and I suspect you would still have posted this thread.
Complaining about having to correct warped resin components is akin to complaining that you have to sometimes scrape a 0.1mm mould slip from a plastic model's legs, or that a multipart metal mini doesn't fit together like a precision-machined engine part, and "I've never had to do it before" is not proof of the opposite; 90% of my FW orders are perfect and require nothing more than a brief soak in warm soapy water to be ready for assembly and paint, but when I do get a 10%'er through the post I just get on with it.
Last edited by Yodhrin; 27-04-2012 at 01:35.
A warped item does not match the product description. Up to some point maybe, if this is easily fixable. Not all warped items are fixable though. And I should have said that I live in Germany which allows me to return or refund *anything* I don't think it fits my expectations, no matter if it is flawless or not. If I buy a miniature and don't like it, I can return it. If I buy a computer game and I don't like the gameplay or it doesn't run on my machine, yes, I do have the right to return it and they *must* refund me if they like it or not. If I buy cloths online, I may return it within 2 weeks and the seller has to pay for the costs of the return-shipment. Ah... good ol' Germany.
Btw, better be careful when using words like: "it annoyed the piss out of me, having to explain to some dimwitted idiot (...)". Someone might think you are including him, since you are trying to explain the very same to us.
I guess though that you are just a bitter angry man who worked too long at customer service. (I hope you aren't one of those who tell me to check if my router is plugged in when I call them because the internet-ppp-servers are rejecting a connection and who tell me the problem can't be from their side - or those who talk to the mate in the next phone-box, totally ignoring my voice on the phone).
Last edited by Hendarion; 27-04-2012 at 05:29.
Eldar - Fear The Rainbow!
My Eldar Painting Log (including Revenant/Phantom/Super Heavies) or direct gallery - random selection of 16 years painting Eldar
Jes Goodwin once said he doesn't like the word "fluff". Thus I will call it "lore" instead.
Okey I just deleted my initialy reply. You are discussing on a very low level Yodhrin. I just noticed more than a handfull of false assumption. Stop making my posts fit your own opinion. You are clearly not interested in a mature debate about quality issues within newer FW models and in relation to GW failcasts.
Firstly; being ignored for 4 months is a complete waste of time. Writing 10 emails trying to express myself clearly was a complete waste of time. Spending two entire days going to the GW in the city, only to find people that agree and get information an email should have contained, is a complete waste of time. I did not define the time it would take to assemble the model, as time that I've wasted. If anything, then I defined it as time I would not waste. It is not my duty to clean up for (in this case) Forgeworld inability to have an unwarped unscratched model. It should be fairly simple to bend in place, and fairly simple to wash and make ready.
Secondly where is that nonsense pdf, there are not link stating "this is what you need to know" when you buy. If anything, they probably got it somewhere small hard to find, because I've never come across such. Actually find it for me, I can't see any PDF describing that all forgeworld models comes warped and scratched. Or a list of which that does.
Thirdly, arguing for hours with me would be avoided easily by saying "no you can't have your parts replace" and then telling me the return procedure. Why would this has to be difficult like you put it.
4th, Quality comes in many shapes. You can't claim having bent and scrathed parts is not a quality issue. I actually expected roughly the same as http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhamme...-TANTALUS.html, apart from my knowledge that these models comes unassembled and like all models do.
Which leads to the point, that everything bought on the internet is able to be returned. For the mere fact that they are never as they appear. A handfull of 2D pictures are not equal to having the raw unassembled parts in real life. Where you'd notice warping and scratching.
Also, I didn't turn it into an issue about communication. It has always been an issue about communication. Among few other things. I did not suddenly change my opinion on the middle of the desert. It's a third, seventh or tenth thing you forge to fit your opinion. And why has it always been an issue about communication? Because since i adressed my concern here, before that, and until my recent new post, I heard nothing from FW. Yet why would I complain about forgeworld not responding, when I had just sent an email last month. I needed to know if my product could be fixed, simple concerns. And in the end, there was a complete blockade, and a complete inability to speak from Forgeworlds side.
I'd happily show you my ten emails, but what good would that do? I am not here trying to get sympathizers and start a cult.
Though if you believe everything in this post is a lie, then stop trolling yourself with a reply.
But calling your own customers idiots is probably the level of discussion I will have with you Yodhrin. You set the bar..
Last edited by Unexo; 27-04-2012 at 15:12.
This link might help. Its in the downloads section. It used to be on the front page if I recall. I dont think it is as obvious as it used to be.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Download...resintips2.pdf
Fixing warped parts will also be mentioned somewhere in the instructions. Usually only a quick sentence though along with another one about filling in bubbles.
I fail to see how pointing out facts is discussing on a low level, but if we're pointing fingers on that score then the moment you use a term like "failcast" quite a few people will stop taking you seriously.
The "nonsense PDF" is, shockingly, in the Downloads section, which is linked to on the front page of the site. It covers warping and correcting it in quite a bit of detail.
As for your wasted time, did it not occur to you to, I don't know, pick up a phone? It would have cost you less than the fuel/busfares you spent to go and complain to the local GW staff, but instead you just kept sending emails over and over again? You're right, I do have a hard time believing that.
As for your "duty"; yes it is. Complaining about having to deal with warping in a resin mini is akin to complaining that you have to saw wood, or pin larger metal models, or scrape mould lines from plastic models. If I use a paint that isn't water-based and then don't use the correct substance to clean my brushes, by your standard I should be calling the paint company and demanding my money back when my brushes get ruined.
I'm not bitter, as much as Hendarion might like to believe that(I wasn't aware that drawing any kind of conclusions from prior experience automatically means you are bitter over those experiences, perhaps Hendarion should publish a paper on the subject? I suggest "How I disproved every neuroscientist ever regarding human memory, experience, and learning" as a working title), I just don't think your complaint has much merit, and I've grown tired of seeing people express this ludicrously entitled "customer is always right" attitude.
The front page of the site says that in the downloads section "you can find experimental rules for Forge World models as well as updates to our books." And that's it. Doesn't say anything about warping and how to fix it, so you are only likely to actually find that file when you are actively looking for it, which will only happen when you know beforehand that it exists.
While we're at it, the FAQ specifies:
"Note that as with all kits, some preperation and cleaning up will be required preior to painting. Some small areas of flash and mould lines will need to be filed or sanded, and larger casting gates will need to be removed before construction." (Including their typo...)
So they tell you there will be some prep work necessary and warn you about flash, mould lines and casting gates, but nothing about warping here, either. I can only conclude that warping is something the customer does not have to accept.
They give email addresses in their contact information, so it is hardly unreasonable to expect that emails sent to those addresses will actually be answered. When you look at their returns policy they even state "that email is our preferred form of communication". And for those who do not speak English as a native language - Unexo has pointed out that he is among that number - it's simply easier to handle these things in writing.
Your paint example is not the same thing, because the product was not handled wrongly.
While I agree that in a lot of cases fixing a warped resin piece is easy, it is just as easy to do for the manufacturer as it is for the customer. It is not a matter of course that a product you buy new from the manufacturer has to be fixed before it can be used. But it seems that Forgeworld has conditioned at least some of their customers so they can get away with bad quality and bad service.
Last edited by EmperorNorton; 28-04-2012 at 23:37.
EmperorNorton's Overabundance of Projects Log
2012
Minis bought: 363 - - - - - Minis painted: 373
2013
Minis bought: 476 - - - - - Minis painted: 104
I've ordered quite a few FW products, including some "big budget" items (i.e. a Titan). Resin warping is just one of those things. It's certainly possible that the item left the factory perfectly fine, and warped in transit. I had accidenially laid a box over the Bright Lances on an Eldar Nightwing, and they warped just from the pressure, so it's concievable the parts might warp in transit...
But beyond that, I have never had a missing part or broken component from FW. Yes, I've had a few warped parts come in (Bright Lances & cockpit shroud -- a compound warp on this!, and the pulsars to a Revenant). Hot water from the tap does the trick. FYI in model building I'm using tracks from a company called IMA in a 1/35 Universal Carrier, and they require that you use hot water to warp them around the suspension!
In terms from other manufacturers, I've had warped cannon barrels from both Legends and Accurate Armour (the former I was considering getting a turned aluminium barrel because I didn't want to deal with the warp, and there were air bubbles underneath in addition). These weren't cheap kits either; $70 (around 8 years ago too!) and $120 -- both were conversion kits to boot. So it happens with resin, and you need to develop the skills if you want to work with it.
That being said, FW not responding isn't a good thing either...
Damon.
"Nicht kleckern, klotzen!"
A Mëtälhëäd of Wärsëër
My Minis Blog: minislikedust.blogspot.com
My Book Blog: bookslikedust.blogspot.com
News from the Front!: http://chaoscreations69.com/blog/
Perhaps you should stop making personal offences. Just thinking loud here. These things are exactly what makes you appear to be a bitter man.
Last edited by Hendarion; 29-04-2012 at 08:00.
Eldar - Fear The Rainbow!
My Eldar Painting Log (including Revenant/Phantom/Super Heavies) or direct gallery - random selection of 16 years painting Eldar
Jes Goodwin once said he doesn't like the word "fluff". Thus I will call it "lore" instead.
It's disappointing when it comes imperfect. I've had a few but to their credit the FW customer service is the best.
I had a completely wrecked set of ripper with wings legs, they replaced as many as I needed, no issue. I won them in a raffle so had no order number, not a problem - replaced.
I've had a tartaros terminator come recently without a heavy flamer, I could see where it should have been but it wasn't there. Not only did they send me the body and legs and heavy flamer as they come but they sent me the bits to make an entire terminator, head, arms, shoulder pads.
The only complaint I have about replacements is the guy saying "let me stop you there" when I also complained about my decimator butcher cannon. It's banana shaped. It's not even close to being a tiny bit bent, the main barrels are completely bow shaped and the business end is bent in the opposite direction. I'll struggle to get those to line up properly in a straight line. That's something they should have replaced but the guy told me I had to just fix it myself.
The other big issue is their instructions. They're ****. The storm eagle has about 5 parts that have absolutely no directions for. This includes one part which is really important to be put on at the right time to line up properly, at least IMO.
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