Vampire Counts: 8th Edition Tactica

[Death Korp]

Hello everyone !

Between the army book release next week, the new white dwarf and the solid rumours on some rules, I was suprised that a Tactica thread had not appeared for the VC's yet! So, here it is, unless the mods deem me unworthy to start such a thread.

Until we get out claws on the new book, all we have at the moment it 'solid' rules from rumours and the white dwarf. But I guess people are starting to form ideas of the sort of theme/playstyle they want to achieve with the new book. I for one am happy that there is multiple playstyles available, rather than the boring GG, Ghouls and whatever else combo.

One topic that I thought would be quite interested to start with it the Ghouls. I want to boil it down to two points:

*How many units of Ghouls will people be using?
*Are people going to still use hordes, or smaller units of Ghouls?

Now, what I've heard is that they are getting a points increase to 5 Skavenslaves. Now, I don't mind that, as they were quite effective for their points value (some may argue rather too efficent for the points cost!), but will this cause people to take less of them and use more skeletons, or take the points increase and stick with 2 Ghoul hordes?

I think I will keep one horde of Ghouls as they are quite effecient especially with buffs from the Mortis Engine and the Corpse Cart. But this leads me on to my other point, what should the unit size of Ghouls be in the new book? Well, I guess that people will still use a Horde or two of them, as they are more effective and easier to buff, but I think smaller units of 20 can have their place as line fillers or giving a little extra punch to Skeleton Warriors.

They're my thoughs, and hopefully, this thread will live on until the next VC book!

Cheers,

DK

[Lebowski]

I plan on having one 30 man squad even if the worst rumors are true. (no IoN for them)
Sidenote, the Crypt Horrors on GW are actually listed as undead so I have no idea why Ghouls (smaller versions of) would not be.

The real question is, what has more value. 2 skellies or 1 ghoul?

lastly, is anyone else drooling at the idea of a ghoul king/ghoul/horror/TG list? as far as looks go I love the idea....

[NitrosOkay]

I'd really hope that you can viably do a shambling horde list of mostly skeletons and zombies and some all-magic Vampires/Necromancers and actually pull it off.

[Sexiest_hero]

A lvl 4 necro with a lvl 2 vampire hero with beasts, One banshee and two wraiths. 100 skeletons and 100 zombies. one mortis Engine and the rest spent on Hex nights and blood knights.

Two huge anvils, two nasty hammers, A might caster and Awesome heroes. Add Buffs from beasts and hexes.

[Tuttivillus]

And don't forget a brand new and uniqe flying monstrous infantry hammer. That is a thing i am most thrilled with Ultimate maneuvrebility with ultimate hitting power combined with decent Ini.. Now it's not only Brets who will hit hard and very fast
This plus fast cav. will allow very fast and mobile builds, which is very fine with me, as it will balance a lack of shooting IMO.

[Symrivven]

Thought to just drop this here, I did some napkin math on the new MotbA, assuming no channeling it will on average net 1.23 dice (not rerolling when there are two 4's or higher) whereas the old version would net on average 1.89 dice. This is a significant reduction compared the the previous one. On top of that its more random (randomness generally makes an ability/item cheaper). Its saving grace is that it works better the worse your original roll is thus being a nice way to save your magic phase. All we need to know now is now how much it is going to cost.

As for Ghouls I'll still field one not sure it will be 7 or 10 wide, at least not 5 because its still an active combat unit.
The good thing is I can now field skeletons and possibly even zombies whiteout having the feeling I'm nerfing my self.

[Chaos Undecided]

As mentioned before seeing as the ghoul's new big brothers are undead theres no reason to think they wont be the same it just wont be possible to boost their numbers above starting level anymore unless theres some hidden feature to the Ghoul King we dont know about yet.

Personally I'm going to be taking a unit of 30 alongside a similar sized unit of sword and board skeles, thinking of maybe having a third core unit to act as a bunker either skeles or maybe even zombies to keep in cheap as somewhere to hide my caster vampire lord behind the main line. A couple of Necromancers seem essential to be able to boost your Skele units so I may have my Vampire using Death or Shadow plus maybe a cheap hero in each core unit points allowing.

Question about Hexwraiths I'm tempted to take a unit of 10 just to really make sure they can deal with a flank do people think 5 is quite enough though? they're a bit too expensive to use as redirecters so i think they could do with the larger size despite the expense.

[Haravikk]

Not sure about tactics exactly, but the book seems like it's going to be much better geared towards themed armies, which is nice. But as others have mentioned, it's anybody's guess whether necromancers with shambling hordes are going to be viable or not. Hopefully Ghouls aren't quite the no-brainers they were before, simply having certain advantages versus skeletons and zombies which should have numbers properly on their side again.

[Coldblood666]

I have 80 Ghouls so I'll most definitely be using them. Whether I split them into 2 hordes or 4 smaller units is still up in the air. Either way I'll be throwing in some Wight Kings/Banshees/Wraiths to join them.

For my general I'll be using the plastic Ghoul King on foot and maybe even a Master Necromancer if points allow.

I want a bestial/feral theme so I plan on packing my Special slot with Crypt Horrors and Vargheists.

For Rare I'm going to throw in 2 Varghulfs and a Terrorgheist.

[PurpleSun]

Has anyone been able to confirm whether or not Dire Wolfs will count as core in the new book?

If so, I would love to see an all cavalry VC list (well, cavalry and warbeasts). Dire Wolves for core, Black Knights and Hexwraiths for Special, and Blood Knights for rares. Throw a level 4 necro with IoN in the back on a corpse cart to 6-dice the IoN.

[Death Korp]

If you look closely at the new White Dwarf, the answer is there. On the Army of Wolf Crag sample list pg 30-31, if you add up the Core without the Dire Wolves, its below 750pts needed for the requirements of the 3000pts list. But, when you tack on the Dire Wolves, its above the 25% requirement, thus meaning that Dire Wolves must be Core.

[Aluinn]

I guess I may as well repost my thoughts on the Mortis Engine from the Warhammer General board here, since that thread seems to be dying (you'd think we could resurrect it though hurr hurr ), and it's more of a tactics post anyway:

The Mortis Engine

As one of the very few units we actually have the full rules for via WD, I've been thinking a lot about the Mortis Engine. When I first saw the rules, I got the impression that it would be fun, but probably not the most competitive thing in the world: After all, people tool up to kill HPAs/Hydras and it has basically the same vulnerabilities, on paper. However, the more that I think about it, the more that I think it could be quite good.

First, on its vulnerability: Almost everyone has Flaming attacks, it's certainly true, but it's actually rather common for an army not to have ranged Flaming attacks, or to have them but to lack enough overall shooting to reliably remove 5 T5 wounds with a 5+ armor save with shooting in a single turn. This is important because: A) The Mortis Engine, unlike the HPA or Hydra (or indeed most monsters--though it's a chariot, which we'll come back to) does not need to be in combat to be useful; and B) the lore attribute for new VC magic appears to be able to heal a wound on it with each successful cast by a wizard within 12", and this is likely in addition to it being within range of Invocations, i.e. a wizard casting Invocation can likely heal it for 2 wounds by casting that single spell in addition to raising back models in other units within the AoE of Invocation.

The above factors mean that it is not as fragile as it might first seem, even including the chance to lose a wound when rolling doubles for its ability. The only things I can think of that would, reliably, remove it in a single turn (thus allowing no opportunities to heal it, which are many) are multiple Dwarf cannons--a single cannon being unlikely to roll 5-6 wounds, though it certainly can happen.

So once we consider that it won't necessarily just be free VP, it's theoretically useful, but we have to find some uses for it. I'm thinking of the following:

1. Back-field Buffer (Spammin' Like Back in the Day)

This one hinges on the Tomes upgrade. The idea is to have a wizard bunker near-ish to the Engine which includes 2-3 level-1 Necromancers. This may also include the army's general if he's a caster, because, although you may not always want him to be affected by Tomes due to the miscast penalty, you can set up the unit (in a single wide rank) and Engine like this:

LxxxxxxxxxxNN ME

(L=Lord, x=Skeleton/whatever, N=Necromancer, ME=Mortis Engine)

Then, by adjusting the range between the unit and the Engine, you can either keep only the Necromancers within range of the Tomes, or include the Lord-level caster if you feel the +2 to cast is worth the risk. This setup also protects the Lord from the effects of miscasts by the Necros. Without a caster Lord, you could put the Necromancers instead at opposite ends of the unit in order to protect them from one another's miscasts.

But what does this all do, even assuming it is "safe"? Well, you can't spam Invocation anymore right? Now you can. With +2 to cast, the Necromancers can each cast an Invocation per turn on 2D6 with extreme reliability, and present some extreme difficulty in dispelling these to your opponent. Meanwhile, as you move this pair of units up behind your combat units, the Engine will provide 6+ Regen/+1 to Regen to the majority or all of them. Finally, the Engine can protect your bunker with its bulk, Reliquary damage, Ghostly Howl, and, if needed, impact hits. When it gets late in the game, or if the Engine seems likely to die soon, you can shift to Plan B ...

2. Undead Cruise Missile (Comets? Pshhhh)

Though this is not a dedicated usage itself for the Engine (being too suicidal and not especially useful early-game), it's an important aspect of its utility. Once you hit Turn 5, if it is alive, it has amassed some pretty huge damage potential via its on-death explosion combined with other abilities. It is also rather fast (when charging) and can move as though Ethereal. So, if there are multiple units relatively near to one another on your opponent's side of the board in latter turns, you can charge this thing out into a centrally-located target and deal:

-D6 S5 impact hits
-Ghostly Howl wounds in the shooting phase
-Whatever your ~11 S3 attacks happen to do, if they get to strike, but they're just a bonus
-2D6 S5-6 hits to every unit within 17-18" (!) when the Engine dies

This is a lot of damage in a single turn by any standard, to potentially a lot of enemy units. Imagine for example how MSU Wood Elves might suffer from such an assault. But, of course, it should only be done if the risk/reward calculus suggests that losing ~240 points is worth all that damage, i.e. if it can net you more points than that--though to be fair this maneuver is not always entirely suicidal, it is always at least very risky.

Speaking of damage, though, brings us to ...

3. Chaff Zapper (Nice Scouts You Have There ...)

In addition to its death explosion, the Mortis Engine's Reliquary is also capable of dealing some meaningful damage, and of course more as the game progresses. Though this is relatively minor and able to be ignored by huge blocks, the same cannot be said of chaff units, including cheap redirectors, random chariots, and the like, nor of Skirmishing Scouts (who are hit just as easily as everything else by it and tend not to be the toughest of customers). Even on Turn 2, The Reliquary presents some danger to anything within 9" of the Engine, and it only gets better from there. Moreover, it has a Ghostly Howl which shares many of the same strengths and will be effective at about the same range.

So with this use you'll probably (if the opponent does not have numerous Scouting Skirmishers) place the Mortis Engine up front, in the midst of your infantry battle line--also thereby taking advantage of its Regen bubble and the fact that it can hit enemy units in combat--in a position where anyone charging it will be subjected to juicy flank charges, or simply where it can't be charged by anything too threatening. Alternatively, should you find yourself facing, for example, multiple units of Shades, the ME can be in the backfield mopping them up, as all it has to do is be near them and they'll disappear in a couple of turns. It can then go do Option 2 above, join the line and zap other chaff/support combats, protect a flank, or whatever.

[Ville]

*How many units of Ghouls will people be using?
*Are people going to still use hordes, or smaller units of Ghouls?

I have 80 of those guys painted, but I seriously doubt I will be using that much anymore as they're now more expensive. I will still include at least one unit of them, 2 poisoned attacks is still REALLY good. One unit of 40 maybe, backed up by two units of 50 Zombies (no Skeles for me, not enough rotten). Raise more as necessary.

I use a killy Vamp Lord on foot, he will most likely stay with the Ghouls and form a scary hammer unit.

[OldMaster]

I am happy to announce that after a lot of years spent in the Northern Wastes Khorne finally gave me some time off and I have been able to succumb to the iridescent beauty of Vampire Counts.
Now, I've ordered some bawkses of stuff I like (heeeexwraaaiths heheh) when I realised that between those boxes I have not ordered a single Ghoul. It was then that it struck me that I find Ghouls repulsive, ugly and generally far less awesome than shambling hordes of rotting flesh and bone that are Zombies and Skeleton Warriors.

So I ax you lot, is it possible in any way to wield a non-Strigoi army (yuch, it even sounds Lord of the Flies-ish (NO! I know! I'm going to pretend it's French: Strig-wa))? Can I fill up my core entirely with Skeletons and Dire Wolves, with Zombles to taste?

[Ville]

So I ax you lot, is it possible in any way to wield a non-Strigoi army (yuch, it even sounds Lord of the Flies-ish (NO! I know! I'm going to pretend it's French: Strig-wa))? Can I fill up my core entirely with Skeletons and Dire Wolves, with Zombles to taste?

I think it is quite possible, thanks for axing.

Use all those points that would have otherwise sunk into Ghouls to beef up your Vargheists/Blood Knights/killy stuff and go to town while your Skellies tarpit and bunker.

[ashc]

I got 40 skeletons, 20 ghouls, 20 grave guard and 30 zombies for christmas, so it is probably what i will run (unsure on if the zombos will be an actual unit or just raising fodder) Plus I have up to 15 dire wolves I can potentially run.

[Col. Dash]

Is an etherial army led by a wight king going to be possible? Have always kinda wanted to do a complete spirit host like the army in Return of the King.

[Symrivven]

As far as we know there are no ethereal units in core, so no.

[SteelTitan]

I never really see the point of starting a tactica thread before the book's even out. It just results in the first couple of pages being filled with non-tactics that you have to browse through to get to the useful stuff.

[Chaos Undecided]

Well alot of the web entries on the store have been updated already so we can get a basic idea of how things will perform.

Zombies going back to strength and toughness 3 might make them worthwhile as a tarpit unit again in big enough numbers, looks like they can now pursue normally again to... if they can ever beat someone in combat that is.