Vampire Counts: 8th Edition Tactica

[Von Wibble]

so, what exactly are the advantages of the Coven Throne? Why would I want to pick it over, say, a dragon mount? And am I right in assuming that a vampire hero is pretty much wasted on that unit (because of LD7?)

Correct me if I'm wrong but can you not have a hero mounted on it and keep them within 12" of your ld 10 general?

[Symrivven]

Yes you can, and with the prevalence of level 4 wizards there will be few ld 10 enemies around.

[Ratbeast]

Crypt Horrors are the armies best choice, after many games trying out new tactics and units, these bad boys never once let me down, last game i used 2 x 10 units against daemons and trounce them, buffing an already decent unit with vanhals and hellish is also awesome

[SteelTitan]

I'm quite keen on trying them out. Hopefully I'll get some cash soon so that I can buy 6 Skin Wolves. I don't know if I'll be willing to buy 20 though

Isn't 10 a strange unit size for them considering horde/supporting attacks, etc?

[vardek_4]

Correct me if I'm wrong but can you not have a hero mounted on it and keep them within 12" of your ld 10 general?

Other advantages are more durability for the same damage output. You lose the flying ability but gain 4++ save and BoW, making it very hard to kill. It also has its own buff spell that if cast makes it better at killing things than the dragon.

With the dragon you have 5 S6 attacks + thunderstomp + once per game 2D6 S2 impacts with -3 armor.
With the throne you have 4 ASF S5 attacks + 2D6 S3 attacks + once per combat 1D6 S5 impacts.

With the dragon you have T6, W6, 5+ save and -1 to hit base to base.
With the throne you have T5, W5, 5+/4++ save, and BoW.

I'd say the throne is better for supporting your slow infantry blocks, and the dragon is better for going on its own or supporting your fast cavalry units.

[Brotheroracle]

Getting a few games in with this setup atm. Not as many as I hoped to get a real feel for the list, but its been a blast to play.

It looks quite fun, I might have to try something along those lines, though I would probably take a normal Vamp lord over the ghoul king. Also I might split one of the Vargheist units into two units of three, and add in fell bats (I love those ugly pig faced bats). What do you use for your hell steed models?

[Wesser]

I'd say the throne is better for supporting your slow infantry blocks, and the dragon is better for going on its own or supporting your fast cavalry units.

The fact that the Dragon flies makes it useful for getting wide battle lines moving the first few turns. It main problem is its base. I often wonder if the size of monsters bases are made as a gameplay decision or whether it's simply up to the sculptors

[meowser]

I have had a couple games with my Strigoi flying circus / shriek spam... Some have found it cheesy and not fun to play against (BM players for example)

for 3K I run the following, droppping some SGK powers, a hero vamp, and trimming down units for 2500

Strigoi Ghoul King (Terrorgheist, Curse of the Revenant, Aura of Dark Majesty, Skabscrath, Dragonbane Gem)

2x Vamp Heroes on Hellsteeds, Quickblood, L2 Wizard

40 Ghouls
20 Skeletons FC
3 x 5 Dire Wolves

3 x 3 Vargheists
2 x 1 Spirit Hosts

Terrorgheist
Terrorgheist
Varghulf

[Balerion]

Isn't 10 a strange unit size for them considering horde/supporting attacks, etc?

10 (5x2 formation) is the perfect size for taking on a mix of regular infantry formations and infantry hordes, isn't it? I suppose going 7-wide against an infantry horde would net you two more stomp attacks, but it would also make the unit unwieldy to move.

[Askari]

I'd say 4, 6 or 18 are the optimal choices. 2x2 and 3x2 nets you maximum attacks with minimal frontage for return attacks. 6x3 does the same but with horde extra rank of attacks. 5x2 is odd as you're increasing your frontage, ergo increasing how many enemies can attack you, with the possibility of having 2 models not able to attack vs. deep units.

[Ratbeast]

I'd say 4, 6 or 18 are the optimal choices. 2x2 and 3x2 nets you maximum attacks with minimal frontage for return attacks. 6x3 does the same but with horde extra rank of attacks. 5x2 is odd as you're increasing your frontage, ergo increasing how many enemies can attack you, with the possibility of having 2 models not able to attack vs. deep units.

5x2 is exactly what i went for, why? all 10 of them can attack a normal 5 wide deamon unit, thats alot of poison attacks, the unit of 30 bloodletters i face really didnt last very long, and what they killed just got back up, in fact it was such a brutal victory, i was banned from using my VCs this week LOL

I think 10 horrors, 5 x 2 is the way to go against any army that users the bigger bases, against smaller base armies, not so good

[Ville]

Any opinions/pointers about lists with no Vampire characters?

I have used my trusty combat Vamp Lord since I started with VC, but now I am curious to try lists with just Necros, Wights and ethereal characters. I've already played once with such a list and it was a hard fought draw against Empire. But what about WoC, for example? I'm worried, because in previous games my Vampire has caused about 2/3 of enemy casualties, because our normal troops can hardly scratch them. By the way, I prefer Black Knights over Grave Guard.

[Luvadin]

I've run my last 4 games without any vampire and although it could seem strange at the beginning, I didn't have troubles and I found a lot of spare points to buy more units. I played 4 games (Ogres, WoC, Woc and Skaven) and won them all (I hadn't had these results in my first games with the new list, including fear bombs and killy lords). Against WoC, I focused on leaving one unit of warriors out of the game by sending chaff to divert it and make it unable to kill as many points as it had costed, while I also saw that crypt horrors are a very good match-up against 10 chaos knights (I run 8 crypt horrors). You will not probably kill his unit, but you will not die either and his unit is quite more expensive than yours. Finally, my vargheists went for his sorcerer lord, and apart from this, with those two hitty units of him tied up in endless or pointless combats, I was able to kill the rest of his army with my other units.

So this last few games and until I see I am going in the wrong direction, I am having a philosophy of minimizing hero points by not taking expensive vampires and buying more units with these points. Overall, my current list is more or less as it follows:

- Infantry + Monstrous Infantry: a zombie unit, a ghoul horde, a GW GG horde and 8 crypt horrors. I normally use these units with no interaction between them as default (initial turns of the game) but rather with different functions. What I mean is that I'm not counting on having the crypt horrors as anvil and make some support charge with the grave guard but rather, while having them nearby the others, using them independently for different purposes (zombies for tarpiting annoying rival units, ghouls normally to face the basic choice of the opponent, grave guard to go for the kill and crypt horrors to stand there resisting and who knows if even killing the unit -especially if they could get a VDM-).

- Chaff: 2x1 spirit hosts, 2x5 direwolves and 2 hero CW. I use these units to try to win deployment and then to entertain the unit I would not like to face at any cost, at least at the beginning of the game. If the spirit host can tarpit something for the whole game (mournfang, hydra...), perfect, if not, they have the same use as the direwolves: suicide for a greater good (not insane suicide but sensible suicide if possible): redirect frenzied units or just be used as speed bumps and try to make that dangerous chaos warrior unit not see combat until turn 5, for example. The hero CW have two possible uses. If the opponent has some flying or flanking unit that could compromise my master necromancer, they go in the skeleton bunker (with FC) so my wizard is safe in the second line. If not, they go with the ghouls and the GG so they give Terror to the unit and, if necessary, can leave the unit to serve as speed bumps or tarpiters.

- Magic support: In this category would fall a necromancer in a corpse cart (with balefire), my master necromancer in a skeleton bunker and a mortis engine with tome. The idea is to use the corpse cart with the grave guard if the opponent has I3 or less or with the ghouls and/or crypt horrors if they have higher I. The necromancer is there to give an additional option of casting ION, although it can be dangerous to have him in the corpse cart... He might get cannoned, but if I put him in the bunker with the master necromancer, I may have all the eggs in the same basket and be in trouble if that unit is destroyed or targeted for something like dwellers. Additionally, I can get relatively more mobility to cast ION in different places. About the general there's not much to say, I imagine. Main caster, and take advantage of the ME to cast any spell with 2 or 3 dices at most (only 2.78% and 7.41% chances of miscast). The ME is vital for giving the casters a +6 and +4 to cast, making on average your opponent to spend one additional die than you to dispel anything and then wearing him off. If you roll something with 2 dice, you get on average 7+6=13. Supposing your enemy uses a level 4, he will need to roll 13-4=9… which would require 3 dice to have quite certainty about dispelling it. I think magic dominance goes more in this way than paying for a vampire and the costly and not necessarily so good master of black arts (you may reroll, at most, half of the times the dice) and specially more than black periapt, which is expensive and gives you additional casting dices at the cost of not using them to dispel and hence probably suffering one more spell from your rival every turn you use it. Last game I tried staff of damnation, still not too sure if I should keep it or not. On the ME, the chance of dying from a single cannonball on the first turn is 13.89%. Of course it is a risk, but it not be that crazy to think he can survive and be healed back on the next phase. Anyhow, I have him behind the crypt horrors so he has more protection and I rarely make him charge, at least for the initial turns. I believe in having it somehow protected and acting in a passive way.

- Flanking / rare option: This has been a tough one for me and I’m not still convinced of what to use between 4 vargheists, a vargulf or a terrorgheist. The vargheists are lovely because of the free reform and the flying movement. However, they are fragile if not used carefully. The varghulf has this additional protection (+1 toughness and regeneration), but might be victim of cannonballs and especially for me, does neither fly nor free reforms, so it has mobility but not a brutal one. The terrorgheist, lastly, can be deadly with his scream, but I fear a lot for his life, as his a large target, has an enormous base that is even paradise for catapults and has a poor save. Additionally, it cannot march on its own and, as the varghulf, has no free reform. I’m still with doubts on this field…

[Ville]

The varghulf has this additional protection (+1 toughness and regeneration), but might be victim of cannonballs and especially for me, does neither fly nor free reforms, so it has mobility but not a brutal one. The terrorgheist, lastly, can be deadly with his scream, but I fear a lot for his life, as his a large target, has an enormous base that is even paradise for catapults and has a poor save. Additionally, it cannot march on its own and, as the varghulf, has no free reform. I’m still with doubts on this field…

Varghulf and Terrorgheist are single models, so they can pivot on the spot as many times as they wish when they move, even if they march (rulebook page 27). So, basically they have unlimited reforms.

[Luvadin]

One thing I was missing then and that makes this decision even tougher, hahaha. Thanks for the comment.

[Luvadin]

By the way, are you generally in favor of this concept of somehow minimizing hero points or do you prefer running tooled up vampires, several necromancers...?

[Askari]

Well, a Vampire Lord isn't very good in minimal configuration, but is fantastic when kitted out. So if you do take one, don't feel bad about slapping 250pts worth of upgrades on him (between magic levels, mundane equipment, magic items and vampire powers).

All other characters should be kept as cheap as possible, while doing whatever job they're meant to do. Generally, more points in Grave Guard/Black Knights/Crypt Horrors/pick a unit are better than combat hero Vampires and Wight Kings.

At 2k, I run a Vampire Lord and L1 Necro. 2.5k gets the Necromancer an extra level, and depending on if I use Blood Knights, a mounted hero Vampire also.

[Ville]

My general, whether a Vampire or a Necromancer, very rarely goes to battle without a couple of assistants. My usual choices have been:

- A cheap Necromancer, often with the Dispel Scroll. With the previous book, I would always pick Vanhels as his spell, to ensure that I get it. Nowadays he will bring an extra Invocation, which is important because otherwise my opponent can quite easily prevent me from raising more troops.

- A Wight BSB. He can take any magic banner and helps in Blood and Glory.

-A Wight bodyguard. He accepts challenges, which my Vampire doesn't fancy, especially if I suspect my opponent has brought items like Van Horsmann's Speculum and Pendant of Khaeleth.

I don't favour Vampire heroes a lot, because they are very fragile. I much prefer the Wight Kings for their durability and Killing Blow.

[Spoonie]

I don't really like the wight king in most circumstances. The benefit of having a BSB isn't worth the cost of an entire character like it is for most armies. Combat characters in general aren't often worth their points cost for the kills they add to a combat, and I'd rather try to bunker a necromancer lord than have a wight to accept challenges for him.

They're comparable in points and combat ability to a general of the empire, and don't bring the stuff to the table that makes empire players actually take those some of the time.

[Ville]

Combat characters in general aren't often worth their points cost for the kills they add to a combat, and I'd rather try to bunker a necromancer lord than have a wight to accept challenges for him.

I agree that Necromancers shouldn't be in the front lines of combat, Zombie bunkers FTW. But the ineffectiveness of combat characters seems to be bit of a myth. Take a "blender" Vampire Lord, put him against premium troops of your opponent and marvel at the bloody mess that's left of them. I'd say he can be easily as useful as a caster in his bunker. You will face different challenges using each type of character, but at least a combat Vampire can't be shut down with a dispel scroll.