Official WarSeer Warhammer 40,000 6th Edition discussion thread

[Theis]

I can think of a multitude of ways to remove the dominance of psykers without randomizing. Make perils tests on 3d6, problem solved. Goes to roughly 50% chance for a marine psyker.

The majority of reasons that psykers are the default hq is because they're the best or only means of psychic defense. Get psy defense in range of a psyker, and suddenly it becomes close to a 50% probability the power won't go off in the first place.

[Theocracity]

I can think of a multitude of ways to remove the dominance of psykers without randomizing. Make perils tests on 3d6, problem solved. Goes to roughly 50% chance for a marine psyker.

The majority of reasons that psykers are the default hq is because they're the best or only means of psychic defense. Get psy defense in range of a psyker, and suddenly it becomes close to a 50% probability the power won't go off in the first place.

Testing on 3D6 is already a form of psychic defense for some armies. And I think the utility provided by Psykers is desirable even if you're facing one of the many Psyker-less armies in 40K; Gate, Null Zone, Fortune, Doom, Murderous Hurricane, Catalyst, Lash... those are great boosts other HQs can't replicate, and are great even if you don't need defense.

Like I said, I don't think the randomization will be for all powers. They should be able to choose at least a primary power. But they won't necessarily be able to choose all the best powers and use Mastery levels to spam them, as they would be able to with the current system.

[Scribe of Khorne]

I can think of a multitude of ways to remove the dominance of psykers without randomizing. Make perils tests on 3d6, problem solved. Goes to roughly 50% chance for a marine psyker.

The majority of reasons that psykers are the default hq is because they're the best or only means of psychic defense. Get psy defense in range of a psyker, and suddenly it becomes close to a 50% probability the power won't go off in the first place.

And they are CHEAP for what they do as well.

[Formerly Wu]

But what if they wanted to change that? Maybe they want 40k to be a fantasy-scifi game with a much bigger focus on the supernatural.

Possibly. But 40k is already pretty distinct among other big scifi properties, and I haven't been getting a feeling of that kind of change from any recent material.

Anything is, of course, possible.

[MajorWesJanson]

I do like some of the magic elements from Fantasy and can see some of them being ported into 40K.
Psychic levels is the first, and we are seeing that with the Grey Knights. Standardizing the types of powers would also be a great idea (Buff, Hex, Blast/Template/Line, Shooting). Giving powers a casting value would also be a good way to differentiate weaker from stronger powers.

Maybe also make casting a psychic power more dependent on the psyker level and not a simple leadership test. Say a psyker has to roll to beat or match a certain value for a power. Make the psychic mastery level both the number of powers they can use a trun, and the number of dice they can throw at a power to have it go off, but keep Perils as any double 1 or double 6. A Level 1 psyker could only roll 1 dice, so only use powers of cost 6 or less, but is not going to be able to Perils. A mere dabbler, who can do a few things but does not really have the attention of the denizens of the warp. A Level 2 psyker could throw 2 dice, so can easily pass a low level power, or try for bigger ones from 7 to 12. they can throw doubles, so are at risk of perils. A level 3 could throw 3 dice at a power, to make it more likely to go off, but at a greater risk of perils, or choose to roll only 2 for a safer option.

Thus you could take the best parts of the fantasy system and port them into 40K. But random powers is a bad idea.

[ForgottenLore]

But what if they wanted to change that? Maybe they want 40k to be a fantasy-scifi game with a much bigger focus on the supernatural.

Possibly. But 40k is already pretty distinct among other big scifi properties, and I haven't been getting a feeling of that kind of change from any recent material.

Really? I was going to comment that the recent codexes provide a LOT of support for that idea. The Dark Eldar, Necron and Grey Knight books all really push a magical, unexplainable flavor. Even when it is supposedly just super science, they spin it as mystical, unknowable power.

[Dwane Diblie]

I'm kinda curious to see what happens with psychic powers to be honest. I have a theory on it though (this is speculation), that what they will do is add a casting value and make it clearer when powers are used.

So for example take JoTWW they could assign it a value of 8 and have psychic shooting attacks happen before other shooting attacks. When you use the power you'd roll the test like normal except the power wouldn't work unless it was either equal or less then than the casting value, if a successful result was higher then the models leadership the power would still work but the psycher would suffer a perils (and maybe the power couldn't be blocked). This would let some of the lower leadership armies have psychers that would work but probably blow up, and allow for them to nerf some of the powers that are OTT (jaws working on a 8 or less instead of a 10 or less is a sizable nerf). This would more or less work within the existing framework but give them more design space.

Maybe also make casting a psychic power more dependent on the psyker level and not a simple leadership test. Say a psyker has to roll to beat or match a certain value for a power. Make the psychic mastery level both the number of powers they can use a trun, and the number of dice they can throw at a power to have it go off, but keep Perils as any double 1 or double 6. A Level 1 psyker could only roll 1 dice, so only use powers of cost 6 or less, but is not going to be able to Perils. A mere dabbler, who can do a few things but does not really have the attention of the denizens of the warp. A Level 2 psyker could throw 2 dice, so can easily pass a low level power, or try for bigger ones from 7 to 12. they can throw doubles, so are at risk of perils. A level 3 could throw 3 dice at a power, to make it more likely to go off, but at a greater risk of perils, or choose to roll only 2 for a safer option.

Inspired by these two posts and came up with this. Powers have a cast value. The HIGHER the value the harder it is to cast. Casting is a test on 2d6 where you have to beat the casting value. If you roll over your LD then you suffer Perils of the Warp attack. Mastery level can be used in two ways. First, to cast a power costs one point of mastery. Second, you can use mastery points to add or subtract 1 from your casting roll, discided after dice have been rolled.

EG: A Psyker Matery level 2 can cast 2 powers or 1 power and add or subtract 1 from the roll. Say it casts a spell with a cast value of 6 and he rolls a 5, he can then choose to make it go off by adding one or choose to cast another spell. Alternatly if it rolled 11 and its LD is 10 then it can choose to take the Perils of the Warp attack and cast another spell or live safly and subtract 1 from the cast value and ignore the Perils of the Warp attack.

Insperation from others speculation. But I think it is interesting.

As for what I think we will get based from the roumer? Everyone gets a list of 6 powers that are randomly chosen and can only be chosen once for the army. If you roll a power that is already in use then you get to choose. Alternatly you can choose the default power that can be taken as many times as you want. Casting values? Don't know. Would be nice. Aditional sets of generic powers that any army can use would also be nice in addition to army spasific powers, especialy if we are getting a percentage system and the ability to spam psykers with out wargear.

[Formerly Wu]

Really? I was going to comment that the recent codexes provide a LOT of support for that idea. The Dark Eldar, Necron and Grey Knight books all really push a magical, unexplainable flavor. Even when it is supposedly just super science, they spin it as mystical, unknowable power.

I'm not sure that's anything particularly new to the setting, though. AdMech techno-sorcery, cyber-daemons, organic-cogitator-psychic fusion and Eldar wraithbone are all examples of "science indistinguishable from magic," as are oldcron FTL, Tyranid biology and the Curse of Sanguinus.

Maybe there's been a shift in emphasis lately, one that GW wants to codify in the main rules. I'd disagree, but again, it's possible.

[Aun Tier]

The way this Psyker discussion is going, you might as well add power and dispel dice! With every post, it's becoming more and more like Fantasy.

[SideshowLucifer]

I'd love to see the psychic phase return to be like the fantasy magic phase. It is the single biggest thing I miss from 2nd edition.

[althathir]

The way this Psyker discussion is going, you might as well add power and dispel dice! With every post, it's becoming more and more like Fantasy.

I doubt we will see power and dispel dice, but with the way a lot of psychers are designed now, where they pick powers from a list has to be hard to balance. Then you factor in powers like Jaws being broken againist some lists, and it makes the game stale. That said I doubt 40k will push it as hard as fantasy seems to, though if they did GK would get a lot worse.

I'd love to see the psychic phase return to be like the fantasy magic phase. It is the single biggest thing I miss from 2nd edition.

How did this use to work, i played a little bit in second but never with psychers?

[Spell_of_Destruction]

2nd ed had a full blown psychic phase which was pretty much identical to the 5th ed WHFB magic phase. You rolled 2D6 and distributed that many 'Warp cards' between the players. Psychic powers cost between one and three warp cards to cast. There were also special cards which were identical to those in WHFB (Irresistable Force, Dispel, Reflect).

Some people liked it, some didn't. It added a different dimension to the game but it could also be overpowered. I think it's too late to re-introduce this kind of system as we now have too many races with no psychic ability whatsoever.

[BramGaunt]

2nd ed had a full blown psychic phase which was pretty much identical to the 5th ed WHFB magic phase. You rolled 2D6 and distributed that many 'Warp cards' between the players. Psychic powers cost between one and three warp cards to cast. There were also special cards which were identical to those in WHFB (Irresistable Force, Dispel, Reflect).

Some people liked it, some didn't. It added a different dimension to the game but it could also be overpowered. I think it's too late to re-introduce this kind of system as we now have too many races with no psychic ability whatsoever.

But this is easily fixed. IF they added a psychic powers phase to the game and it is in any way similar to Warhammer, than maybe there will be some kind of "power dice". Therefor, there also could be some sort of "dispel dice", the natural resistance to the warp offered by every living being. That would grant Necrons and Dark Eldar some kind of defence. If you now added special rules to these units, like extra dispel dice or some kind of defensive gear, there we go. There could also be the option for rogue psykers that you can 'hire'. Tau could get a psychic talented new Xeno race.

[MajorWesJanson]

With Dispel dice, you can essentially make quite a variety of anti psychic defenses. Runes of Warding could give rerolls to dispell attempts. Psychic hoods could generate extra dispell dice. Null rods could make the opponent lose power dice. Wolf Tail talismans could give a save vs the effects of psychic powers.

[EpicWarGamer]

With Dispel dice, you can essentially make quite a variety of anti psychic defenses. Runes of Warding could give rerolls to dispell attempts. Psychic hoods could generate extra dispell dice. Null rods could make the opponent lose power dice. Wolf Tail talismans could give a save vs the effects of psychic powers.

I like all of this, except that 40k is not as Magic driven as fantasy, and I think this could be a terrible thing to do to Psykers if it hinders them too much. Remember back in 2nd when there was 3 or 4 levels of Librarian?

[GotrekFan]

My only issue with a "Psychic phase" is that many powers are phase specific such as the GK power that increase reserve rolls which happens at the start of turn, then there's wings of sanguinius which is movement, destructor which is shooting and hammerhead which is assault.
Now they could have these cast (or attempted) in the psychic phase, but it might be too much bookkeeping to remember what was actually cast from one turn to the next...or the 1st phase of the game could be psychic but I don't see that as a realistic solution either.



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[Aun Tier]

I think it's too late to re-introduce this kind of system as we now have too many races with no psychic ability whatsoever.

Well, to be fair Dwarfs seem to play pretty well without Psykers. Also, it's only Tau, DE (and maybe Necrons, I'm not sure) that can't have Psykers. Necrons already have some nifty Psyker equivelents, and Tau and DE are both pretty teched-up races, so I can't see it being too hard to balance it out with some cool gizmo's.

This is starting to lean well into speculation now though, so perhaps we should wander back towards the actual rumours soon.

[Cheexsta]

-There will be "lore equivalents"
-Psychic powers will be generated randomly by psykers (like fantasy)

Hmm. I always thought it was odd that the most recent codices have a general list of psychic powers that either come free or with a small cost. Maybe there is some truth to this?

I think it's more likely that this rumour refers more to something like the old Minor Psychic Powers of 3rd edition Chapter Approved. Hopefully a little more balanced. Not sure I see the point, though...

-Entirely new rules for constructing army lists (~Look at Fantasy for hints)
-The FOC may be history

It's easy to conclude that this means there will be percentages, but this rumour doesn't actually state that (only to look at WHFB for "hints"). But really, have there ever been any reliable rumours that this would be the case? Is it possible that this is actually alluding to a more "scalable" FOC instead? Something like a minimum of 1x Troops choice per 750pts, with a maximum of 1x per 300pts - that sort of thing?

[Tzeentch2003]

I like all of this, except that 40k is not as Magic driven as fantasy, and I think this could be a terrible thing to do to Psykers if it hinders them too much. Remember back in 2nd when there was 3 or 4 levels of Librarian?

40k is not currently as magic driven. It was a dominant component back in 2nd edition. I don't think I want to see it go all the way back to that, but I always thought the game lost something when they got rid of the psychic phase and shoehorned psychic powers into the other phases.

[Glyn]

well i've had a read through and the arguements about the percentage system hamstringing armies I frankly thing is a load of hogwash...thing about it, most armies dont NEED to spend more than say 250 points on a HQ, which would be 25% and more than 25% or 250 on squads of troops ok so it's saying in most armies that you have to take 2 troops choices...not seeing a change here yet....if you look back to second edition and the comparisons fast attack would get upto 25% which is 250 points again that covers a lot of things in the fast attack options but they could turn around and just as easily say upto 50% the same for HEavy support and Elites......so looking at this from a standard 1500 point game nothing is really going to change because you can still take 2 HQ, 2+ troop...probably more than 3 fast/heavy/elite if you wanted to...that's better to my mind

now lets take this one step forward into the realm of theory - we all know that the force chart goes out the window in Apoclypse but the percentage system would work very very well there, also the point on flyers most proper flyers I know of belong in the "forge World" category and are again gonna work better in a percentage game than a FOC one. What i'm saying is this there could be a plan or intent to bring in to 40k some or most of the stuff from Apocolyse with the exceptions of the Super Heavies obviously cause that would be plain stupid and GW may be a lot of things but that isnt one of them...

so everyone is worrying about nothing, the structure is changing to help balance things up I'm cool with that, add in the old upto 25% on allies and i'll be very happy indeed as in the fluff most of the races fight with allies most of the time anyway.

onto the psyker point....this really does need fixing and tidying up if they return a Psychic Phase all the better it'll save a lot of problems for a lot of players who takes Psykers and forget the powers point in the game...set it up like fantasy great no problem it'll help sort a lot of issues out in regards to somethings being to weak and others to strong again it'll balance up..an example is that Nid thing that makes you take a leadership test on 3d6 every shooting phase and everything it kills gives it wounds, that is horrific against the likes of Guard or Orks or Eldar anything that is ld8 or lower is in trouble....give that the chance to be blocked from working now it becomes fair, or what about smite 12" range assault 4 strength 4 ap2, not exactly a good power just on the range that needs balancing up in range mostly but again against other marines when it goes off it can really ruin a squad a chance to block it helps equal the field.....And in 2nd Ed i think marines had 3 levels of librarian...Codicer was bottom, the LExicanum, then Epistolary I think it was or the last two were the other way around their points scaled as well, as the number of powers they could cast per turn.