Official WarSeer Warhammer 40,000 6th Edition discussion thread

[Faeslayer]

If chain assault is really in, that will be good for Orks.
If units can chain-assault into transported enemies after destroying the transport... that will be REALLY good for Orks.
I can't wait to find out!

[Theocracity]

If chain assault is really in, that will be good for Orks.
If units can chain-assault into transported enemies after destroying the transport... that will be REALLY good for Orks.
I can't wait to find out!

Ooh, good point. That plus Hull Points could make things easier for us. Nids, too.

I do like the idea of HQ challenges too. That's right up my Warboss's ally.

Also, though it's not an official rumor, Goatboy wrote an article that noted that in Fantasy assaults through difficult terrain just trigger Dangerous Terrain tests, not initiative reduction. Could be good for Nids, though I'm not as sanguine as him about what happens when large units make dangerous terrain tests.

[Dwane Diblie]

I think that full pre-measuring and random charges as per fantasy are pretty much a given. "Mysterious" terrain types like fantasy seems semi-likely, and terrain in general may follow fantasy's lead as well, with difficult terrain disappearing in favour of just having normal movement dangerous terrain, with some randomised types to further discourage players from just charging through alien forests etc.

You can safly bet on Difficult Terrain staying in the game considering the Necrons hord of new abilitys thet rely and react on it.

As for the random movement from Fantasy. M+2D6", so average of M+7". While I do not like it due to what it dose to dwarves comparied to my bretonians, it dose work with different movement types. 40k dose not have diferent movement types to the extent that fantasy dose and would need a diferent system, somthing probably closer to current Difficult Terrain rules, if it gets introduced at all.

Consolidation assults? Hmmm.... In some instances I want it back and in others I dont. If it dose come back then there better be no charge bonuses or USR assosiated with the consolidating unit. Would still be nice for the newly assulted unit to use their reactive USRs though, eg Counter Attack.

[RandomThoughts]

AHAH your kidding right? Shooting dominates Assault so completely right now its not even close.

This has come up so often, shooting dominating tournament games while assaults dominate casual games, I just wonder what makes the difference. My personal theory is that it isn't shooting units in general that are dominant, but certain shooting units, Razorbacks or whatever, that trounce assault armies...

Now, regarding the rumors, I might be the only one for whom allies might be a reason to get back into the game. Combining units from two codices make for some awesome narratives, and it would encourage getting just a unit or two for another army, knowing fully well I won't start another full-blown army.

Otherwise I just want to agree with many of you that there is already too much random in the game and that we don't need more of it.

Regards
RT

[totgeboren]

I just want to point out that the statement that the "Space marines are the protectors of the Tau" is fairly obviously misconstrued. If the rumours are true, the statements is probably that some Space Marine chapters have signed 'peace treaties' with the Tau during specific engagements, to better allow both sides to deal with more pressing threats like Nids or orks. Pure speculation, but really, GW would never state that ALL Space Marines are now homies with the Tau.
But I can well imagine they would open the option for us players to allow our specific chapter to cooperate with the Tau during the specific campaign which your chapter finds itself in. And this could of course open up for Imperial vs Imperial battles, where one side is rightly or wrongly accused of cooperating with xenos. Things like that.

The Ultras have fought side by side with the Eldar against the Nids, and the Gothic war was won by a combined force of Imperial and Eldar vessels. It's nothing new. That is 40k. Everyone hates everyone, but alliances do happen all the time.

[Theocracity]

My problem with that kind of an allies system is that we can already do it currently, in a much less restrictive manner.

I think the allies stuff is just a misinterpretation of codified multiplayer game rules. I would hope that anything restricting player all combinations based on fluff would be nonexistent or easily ignored; they would just screw over the 'jerk' factions like Orks, DE or Nids and restrict the creativity of players.

Edit: Just a few examples of the weirdness in that 'acceptable ally' matrix for the doubles tournament that seems to support the BoK stuff: If the team is Orks / CSM or Orks / Eldar, two classic 'Orks being manipulated by the smarter faction' combinations, they suffer a worse penalty than if Space Wolves and Dark Angels ally, despite their classic 'these guys hate each other' dynamic. Also GK have no penalty for almost all factions, despite their proclivity to kill everything in a 5 mile radius to protect their secrets / purge corruption. Also there's no support for Tyranid alliances due to Genestealer cults.

Basically, that chart is probably specific to that tournament. If its not, it had better be optional.

[ForgottenLore]

This has come up so often, shooting dominating tournament games while assaults dominate casual games, I just wonder what makes the difference. My personal theory is that it isn't shooting units in general that are dominant, but certain shooting units, Razorbacks or whatever, that trounce assault armies...

That is my impression as well. Shooting is trumped by assault, but Assault is trumped by vehicle spam.

[Gondrak]

i cant fully believe the snap fire thing.
so space marines shoot as good as orks, when assaulted? thats ********. maybe a -1 BS, if they really bring back consolidation assaults.

[carlisimo]

I just want to point out that the statement that the "Space marines are the protectors of the Tau" is fairly obviously misconstrued. If the rumours are true, the statements is probably that some Space Marine chapters have signed 'peace treaties' with the Tau during specific engagements, to better allow both sides to deal with more pressing threats like Nids or orks.

You're right about some chapters protecting the Tau, but it isn't necessarily an alliance. The Ultramarines find a document telling them to protect the Tau. They therefore become "protectors of the Tau," but there's no indication that the Tau will accept that. They might not believe or trust the Ultramarines, who would probably take a paternal and patronizing approach to protecting them. They'd still fight together when necessary, but I don't see the Tau jumping head-first into an alliance.

[Theocracity]

i cant fully believe the snap fire thing.
so space marines shoot as good as orks, when assaulted? thats ********. maybe a -1 BS, if they really bring back consolidation assaults.

Don't worry, I'm these rumors just forgot to include the "Space Marine get to cheat" sticker that applies to all other core rules.

[Gondrak]

oh, if thats all, fine!
i really dont know why i would want it to have an equal effect to every army depending on the BS. silly me! *g*
thank you for your info!

Edit: As an Ultramarines Player i am okay with it, if the fluff goes this way. Looking forward to Devastators with Railguns. *g*

[Theocracity]

oh, if thats all, fine!
i really dont know why i would want it to have an equal effect to every army depending on the BS. silly me! *g*
thank you for your info!

Because it doesn't matter how good of a shot you are if you only have a half second to squeeze off a shot before they're on top of you. You're more concerned with keeping your head down from incoming fire and setting to receive the charge than you are with accurately lining things up, unless you're well disciplined (which would come in the form of rules specific to each army, and thus not listed in the BRB).

Also, shooting armies already have enough chances to shoot. If on top of all that they got a free shot at regular BS, it would be, well, BS.

Edit: To illustrate my point, imagine a squad of Orks sitting within charge range of a blob squad of IG. If the Orks have to question whether or not they should Assault, then something is horribly wrong. Alt version: Assault marines vs a plasma-toting IG Vet squad.

[Gondrak]

i am not sure, if it is spam, when i just answer, but i will give it a try and see, if someone gets angry. *g*
i thought, BS is the way to show, how good someone is trained in shooting. if you are well trained, you just move your gun and most likely you will hit whats in front of you. so thats essentially what you said, but why put it in every army book instead just lowering the BS by 1?
shooting vs. assault will be an endless debate. i wont go too far. i just want to point out, that i said "if they really bring back consolidation assaults", because that will change a lot. there are two rounds of fighting every turn, just one round of shooting, and that may be the reason, why they could bring back overwatch/snap fire.

[Theocracity]

i am not sure, if it is spam, when i just answer, but i will give it a try and see, if someone gets angry. *g*
i thought, BS is the way to show, how good someone is trained in shooting. if you are well trained, you just move your gun and most likely you will hit whats in front of you. so thats essentially what you said, but why put it in every army book instead just lowering the BS by 1?
shooting vs. assault will be an endless debate. i wont go too far. i just want to point out, that i said "if they really bring back consolidation assaults", because that will change a lot. there are two rounds of fighting every turn, just one round of shooting, and that may be the reason, why they could bring back overwatch/snap fire.

I apologize if my sarcasm made you think I was trolling you, I was intending to have a real argument. No offense intended.

I agree that consolidated assaults will change the balance a bit, but I don't think allowing what is essentially an extra shooting phase is the way to do it. As you say, Assaults have 2 phases while shooting has 1 - but during Shootings phase only one side is at risk for taking damage. If a unit assaults a unit with high BS and lots of shooting weapons, it's putting itself at risk to take damage twice over - once before assault, then again during. That doesn't seem right when you're the aggressor. BS1 at least limits the damage they can take.

I also think that rules like premeasuring, random charge range and the use of vehicles can help against the effects of consolidated assaults.

[Azzy]

i cant fully believe the snap fire thing.
so space marines shoot as good as orks, when assaulted? thats ********.

Until you consider the potential lopsided effect that snap fire would have against some armies (like Orks, Nids, DE, etc.) without BS being severely reduced (and -1 BS is NOT enough).

[Gondrak]

why only against some armies? it does effect every unit that goes into cc, doesnt it? it is the same for all, so the penalty should be the same for all, but thats just my opinion.

[Theocracity]

why only against some armies? it does effect every unit that goes into cc, doesnt it? it is the same for all, so the penalty should be the same for all, but thats just my opinion.

Because by your proposed rules Orks fire at Space Marines at BS1, while SM get BS3. That's a pretty significant amount of difference in the damage they can cause, on top of the SM's already superior survivability advantages.

It makes more sense to make the penalty same for all by literally making it the same for all - eg BS1 for all.

[Gondrak]

that makes no sense for me. orks fire normally with bs2 and sm with bs4, now the both lose 1 BS. thats fair. the marines paid more points to be BS 4 in their statline. the orks only paid a really small amount for BS 2. about the survivability.. just the same. you do remember that a slugga boy cost 6 points, while a marine costs 16 points?

[Azzy]

that makes no sense for me. orks fire normally with bs2 and sm with bs4, now the both lose 1 BS. thats fair. the marines paid more points to be BS 4 in their statline.

They didn't, however, pay to fire at assaulting troops.

the orks only paid a really small amount for BS 2. about the survivability.. just the same. you do remember that a slugga boy cost 6 points, while a marine costs 16 points?

I'm pretty sure that price of Slugga Boyz involves surviving to make attacks in CC. With snap fire, the likelihood of that dramatically decreases. It's not fair to non-MEQ assault-based armies.

[Scribe of Khorne]

When I can bring a unit of CSM 30 strong maybe I would see it as the same as Orks getting their shots at BS1 as well as CSM...

There is no way that balances out to be the same.