Official WarSeer Warhammer 40,000 6th Edition discussion thread

[Theocracity]

That, right there, is the main concern of all this, really. If CCWs have an AP of anything other than "-" than what happens to armour saves? Truly, IG, Orks, Eldar and DE, etc, would be best represented as having armour made up of wet cardboard with the word ARMOUR painted on it, moreso than ever before.

Well presumably units without a 'close combat weapon' would not get the benefit. Thus, for example, Ork Shoota Boyz would not get the benefit, while Choppa Boyz would.

We're also seeing a lot more shooting weapons with AP - showing up. So maybe it would be ok. And it's not like the armor save helps all that much anyhow.

[Spell_of_Destruction]

2+ has always been a tricky armour save to balance since 3rd ed and perhaps highlights the problematic duality of the AP system.

On the one hand such protection needs to be costed to reflect the fact that it deflects 5 out of 6 wounds - twice as effective as a 3+ save. On the other hand, the AP system's all or nothing approach means that those units dedicated to taking out heavy infantry will carve through them like a hot knife through butter as they don't care if they're targetting Terminators or regular Space Marines.

Whether you like the AP system or not, it's hard to disagree that Terminator armour seemed to work a lot better in 2nd edition when it was 3+ on 2D6 and didn't need a tacked on invulnerable save to make it worth the cost.

If power weapons go to AP3 I'm not too worried about regular terminators but deathstar units like Paladins become even harder to kill. These kinds of units are one of my pet peeves in 5th edition as they require very little skill to use and require a huge effort on the part of the opposing player to destroy them. I imagine that some special characters will become very difficult to kill as well.

[BrotherCaptainS]

If power weapons go to AP3 I'm not too worried about regular terminators but deathstar units like Paladins become even harder to kill. These kinds of units are one of my pet peeves in 5th edition as they require very little skill to use and require a huge effort on the part of the opposing player to destroy them.

but if power weapons go to AP 3 then things like mega nobz, regular termies and some 2+ save characters can beat these guys because the the palies aren't as good at killing heavy infantry.

[Hokiecow]

I hope with all my heart that's not true. I can trash my incubi, archon and the like if so... And i started playing DE only because i love them.

Lelith might become more valuable to take out +2 armor since she ignores armor saves.

[Tzeentch2003]

Whether you like the AP system or not, it's hard to disagree that Terminator armour seemed to work a lot better in 2nd edition when it was 3+ on 2D6 and didn't need a tacked on invulnerable save to make it worth the cost.

Yep. Show of hands from everyone who remembers when terminators had to get a WD update to have a 5++ save because power weapons and plasma just mowed them down.

[WildWeasel]

And note despite the nerfs powerfists have gotten, they are still by far the superior choice on things that aren't giving up multiple I5+ attacks (with other possible specials). Nerfing the power weapon relative to them makes the PW sarge even more pointless.

[Therion]

While my Tactical Terminators would rejoice at this, at the same time Deathwing/Draigowing would be absurdly resilient in close combat.

Really? Against what? Who even uses power weapons? This is a serious question. Space Wolves have power fists and rending models. I assume rending in the new rule book 'ignores armour saves' on a wound roll of 6. So they're unaffected. Necron Warscythes 'ignore armour saves' and Wraiths have rending. They're unaffected. IG don't use power weapons or close combat overall very much. Blood Angels might've used one or two power weapons, so now they're just take fists instead which were always better anyway. Really, the only one who possibly gets nerfed in any way is Grey Knights because they actually use halberds which are power weapons. Point being, Deathwing/Draigowing are easily defeatable and it never had anything to do with assaulting their death star unit with guys wielding power weapons. So don't get your underwear in a twist over this rumor. Nothing will change.

[Fable]

That, right there, is the main concern of all this, really. If CCWs have an AP of anything other than "-" than what happens to armour saves? Truly, IG, Orks, Eldar and DE, etc, would be best represented as having armour made up of wet cardboard with the word ARMOUR painted on it, moreso than ever before.

Well if it's AP6 then very little would change for Eldar, DE and IG. Orks and Nids would see some change from it. But this would allow AP - to be used for units like SMs that don't have CCWs.

[DeviLution]

If power weapons go to AP3 I'm not too worried about regular terminators but deathstar units like Paladins become even harder to kill. These kinds of units are one of my pet peeves in 5th edition as they require very little skill to use and require a huge effort on the part of the opposing player to destroy them. I imagine that some special characters will become very difficult to kill as well.

Really? I take it you must not include St 8 or higher weaponry in your army. Paladins are geography after being hit by a Demolisher Cannon. You think I mean history? No - I MEAN geography - literally they'll be all over the terrain, with not enough of them left to write about in any book, much less bag and drag to Titan.

EDIT

Really? Against what? Who even uses power weapons? This is a serious question. SNIP Nothing will change.

Uh, you do realize that all of your argument is based on the paradigm of today, which is kinda ridiculous since none of us here know all of what the future paradigm will be? Change is gauranteed. And this IS a game, so not too sure why you use the word 'serious' there.

EDIT 2 @ Fable - Agreed, AP 6 won't, but AP 5 would. Honestly, I'm curious to see where this particular chip falls in 6th. This is one of a very few rumours in which I am keenly interested in the result.

[VampireCountJP]

Love the idea about ap values for close combat weapons sounds great. Makes sense to looking at some recent codex descriptions ie: codex necrons hyperphase swords are classified as power weapons then you have warcythes described as simply ignoring all armor saves sort of represents them as being able to inflict more damage. Depending on if they change feel no pain will make some armies a bit more resilient to power weapons. Terminators and others with2+will definitely be happy. This was sorely needed never understood why joe bloe with a tiny knife was just as good slicing through someone who has a massive chainsword. What do you guys think chainswords ap6 ???

read thread backwards realized a few people already mentioned necron codex weapons sorry for just re hashing guys. In regards to a few complaints that dark elder are useless now because their incubi can't butcher termies in close combat... Most armies aren't made of 2+ saves you will still butcher most units and isn't it better to just nail them with a plethora of poison shooting? 2+ saves are killed through weight of fire make someone roll dice and they die.

[KarlPedder]

I don't this just buffs units that don't need it you want to remove the stock 5++ on termies and nerf SS back to providing the only 5++ then sure but the last thing this game needs is units with good save and a ++ save being buffed.

[Rick Blaine]

Wow, 15 years of 2+ save models and people still think you need AP2 to bring them down...

[MajorWesJanson]

If this is true then it will make several high-cost power weapon units (incubi, howling banshees, etc) useless against 2+ armor. It will also make rending preferable in similar situations. I don't mind the creation of more tiers of close combat weapons, but I don't think that this is the way to do it. IMO, armor save modifiers would work better.

Adding AP values to CC weapons I find is a good idea, as it unifies the rules a bit more, and adds granularity. Having Chainfists be AP1, Power Fists as AP2, and Power Weapons as AP3 is just a handy baseline to cover existing rules. This lets them add more variety without adding tons of extra rules. CCWs can now have weapon profiles, rather than just descriptions. Just because generic power weapons are AP3 does not mean that a Banshee Sword cannot be AP2, or named weapons like Special Characters have stats that are different from generic versions.

Close combat weapons could even gain a handy reference chart. Ranged weapons have Range, Strength, AP, Type, RoF, and then any special rules. CCW could be Strength (say a X means models strength, X+2 would be a Relic Blade, 2X would be a Power Fist, 10 would be Dorns Hammer) AP, Initative (X is models I, X+2 wouldbe GK Halberds, 1 would be Powerfists) and Special Rules, like reroll wounds, rending, ect.

Adding AP values to CCWs both unifies the rules for armor penetration, but also adds design space for more types of weapons incombat without needing extra special rules.

[KarlPedder]

I like the system I'm just not a huge fan of edition rules changes that require either extensive FAQs to cover the changes to specific codex entries or worse where they simply make sweeping changes like "All weapons listed as power weapons are ap3" fine if you have a 6th ed or even perhaps a built for 6th 5th ed codex but not so great if your units are costed for when you could ignore ap2.

[Ozybonza]

Wow, 15 years of 2+ save models and people still think you need AP2 to bring them down...

As a Deathwing player, I endorse this statement. I fear mass fire/assault much more than a few AP2 weapons.

[daboarder]

Wow, 15 years of 2+ save models and people still think you need AP2 to bring them down...

well these days with 2 wound termies then yeah you kinda do need the AP2, that being said the 2 would versions don't get storm shields.

[Ereshkigal]

If they weaken the power weapons what's the point in bringing a dedicated assault unit or HQ like Incubi and a Archon while you could just bring more firepower? It won't balance anything changing the AP of the CCW imho, and makes marines (expecially GK and BA) even more stronger and Tyranids even weaker (lol). Are you seriously suggesting something like this?

[Kor'Vesh]

I think I broadly agree with MajorWes that adding AP to close combat weapons adds depth to the system, and is probably a good thing.

One thing that does strike me though, is how pistols will be handled - obviously at this stage everything is wild speculation, but introducing AP to the CC phase would give a precidence to using Pistol AP in close combat. I'd guess they would just blanket ban this, as they do pistol strength in CC. But maybe allowing a model with a pistol to attack once using the pistol's AP could be interesting (if a little slower for the game...). This could make things like plasma pistols, blaster pistols etc. quite interesting up close, but would also give all bolt pistol weilding marines a single AP5 CC attack, that might be a bit too much for the xenos.

I guess this won't happen, but a space marine veteran sergant dual wielding plasma pistols to slaughter chaos termies in close combat does sound funny! Sorry for the wild speculation, just struck me as an interesting potential tangent to the rumour!

[gunmnky]

Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Dark Angels don't have terminator captains. If they're a member of the Deathwing, then it's the Master of the Deathwing (a master) In fact, they don't even have captains. TDA is kept within the first company and inner circle. I have heard rumors that the starter set contains Belial, which fits better than "a terminator captain."

[Gingerwerewolf]

Has anyone else noted that this rumour about ap on CC weapons is straight out of the "Leaked" Rulebook.

They had AP on weapons, and allowed you to use Pistols in CC.

So yet another rule from the leaked rulebook has hit again. Is this rumour reverb? Was the leak real? (These are rhetorical questions I dont want them answered)

The only point I would make is that if CC weapons get an AP, and non power weapons get an AP of 6 or 5 then it is a direct boon to MEQs, and very little else. Most of the common shooting weapons have AP5 which takes away the armour saves of most non MEQ. Give that same AP to CC and you remove the point of a 5+ save from the game. Orks, Nids, Guard, Eldar all massively suffer.

So, I cannot see this rumour as anything but rumour reverb, and ill thought out at best. GW rukes designers may not look at the game like we do, but it would take someone 30 seconds to see the massive problems with this.